What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[Albion]

(My apologies for posting in reply to the OP this far into the discussion)

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

I agree, but the more basic fact is this--

If Mary was a human being, and there is plenty in Scripture which describes her as one, she by the nature of humans was in sin, committed sin.

That means that she might possibly have been kept from this condition which applies to all human IF there is something in Scripture which teaches this. It's not the other way around, that we have to prove she was a human and, therefore, a sinner.

On that point, no, there isn't any such verse which indicates that she was sinless.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You're right.

Luke 1:28 is one of the passages I had a lot of trouble understanding back in my evangelical days. I already thought the "reformers" had thrown the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to Our Lady. But passages like that one were especially challenging. "Hail, full of grace", what an odd greeting for an angel to give to a regular human.

But, of course, if the Catholic viewpoint of Our Lady is true, then the angel was recognizing how different she is from everyone else by addressing her as "full of grace". Protestants either can't explain that passage or else they come up with all sorts of goofy formulations that totally sidestep it. But there's never a direct explanation of it from them.

Of all Catholic doctrines I thought I'd struggle with when joining the Church, the Marian dogmas ended up being the easiest to believe because they're so flawlessly logical.

They treat kecharitōmenē as 'favored' and are done with it. But it's compelling from the word itself that it means 'completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace' and not just 'favored'. But 'favored' is in most of the Bible translations so there you go. English translations rule the day. And most of those have a theological bone to pick with Mary anyway.

I have never been the most 'marian' of Catholics. But I have tried hard to be a 'Biblical' Catholic. So I'm stuck with seeing Mary as full of grace, and consequently sinless. Many of those who call Mary only 'favored' spend a lot of energy in describing her as totally ordinary, favored only by being allowed to be the biological mother of Jesus. Which is worth a few brownie points of favor I guess.

 

[Albion]

I have never been the most 'marian' of Catholics. But I have tried hard to be a 'Biblical' Catholic. So I'm stuck with seeing Mary as full of grace, and consequently sinless Many of those who call Mary only 'favored' spend a lot of energy in describing her as totally ordinary, favored only by being allowed to be the biological mother of Jesus.

Here's what's weak in that approach. The Bible version which renders that verse as "full of grace" is the KJV. Just about every other translation, including the Roman Catholic ones, have it "found favor with God."

And even if you go by the KJV, thinking it to be definitive (a strange POV for any Catholic, I would think), then the meaning is not crystal clear anyway.

You are then forced to think of grace as something like milk or water and the person as something like a bottle or cannister, literally being "filled up" with a commodity. And that means that it would be possible to be only 3/4 in the state of grace or perhaps half full, which is definitely not a Catholic view of grace.

 

[Dansiph]

Here's what's weak in that approach. The Bible version which renders that verse as "full of grace" is the KJV. Just about every other translation, including the Roman Catholic ones, have it "found favor with God."

And even if you go by the KJV, thinking it to be definitive (a strange POV for any Catholic, I would think), then the meaning is not crystal clear anyway.

You are then forced to think of grace as something like milk or water and the person as something like a bottle or cannister, literally being "filled up" with a commodity. And that means that it would be possible to be only 3/4 in the state of grace or perhaps half full, which is definitely not a Catholic view of grace.

Sorry to insert myself into the discussion (especially to disagree) but one of the defintions of grace is "unmerited favour".

(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favour of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings

 

[Albion]

Sorry to insert myself into the discussion (especially to disagree) but one of the defintions of grace is "unmerited favour".

(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favour of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings

Thanks for the contribution, but that information doesn't change anything about what I wrote.

If anything, it only strengthens what I wrote since it verifies my point about grace not being something that can be quantified. That is what's done when "full of grace" is used to try to prove that Mary was without sin. It's saying there couldn't be sin because there wasn't any room for that, considering that she was 'full up' with grace instead.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Jesus was tested, not tempted by his flesh.

Except, of course that's only a paradigmatic rationalization.

JESUS WAS TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE - go argue with the Bible. And the mechanism of temptation is given in the James passage that you eliminated the parts you didn't like from.

 

[Fidelibus]

The MIRACLE of Jesus was that: as a "NORMAL HUMAN" subject to being tempted as WE ARE (James 1:14) - Jesus NEVER let the temptation (that we fall to regularly) CONCEIVE, and become sinful actions. Obviously Jesus had some "extra horsepower" in that regard that the rest of us DON"T HAVE. The simple fact is that JESUS had to accept who He was (God's only begotten SON) by FAITH - just as WE have to acdcept oput PERFECTION IN HIM as Christians by Faith. Just think how utterly ridiculous it would be if Jesus was "almighty God hiding in a "Man suit" pretending to be human" for satan to say: "IF THOU BE THE SON OF GOD" - or that satan would give him the Authority over all Jesus saw - when he already HAD IT!!!

Guess I should have been more specific. As an adherent to the doctrine of sola scriptura (the bible alone) could you show the Scripture passage that say's Mary gave birth to only the human flesh of Jesus? Along with the passage that tells us where His Divinity was when she only bore the human Jesus?

Everything you posted above is just your fallible, non-authoritative, opinion which is subject to error, would you not agree? Something that is in abundance within this forum.


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Albion]

Guess I should have been more specific. As an adherent to the doctrine of sola scriptura (the bible alone) could you show the Scripture passage that say's Mary gave birth to only the human flesh of Jesus?

We know what birth in humans means. The question is whether or not there is something in Scripture which teaches that a human gave birth to someone else. As it turns out, Mary is described in Scripture as giving birth to a human baby who is himself defined in Scripture as God.

 

[Fidelibus]

Historically even the Protestant Reformers believed Mary was the Mother of God.
THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS ON MARY

Others object to the title because they think the title has been exagerated.

Fact is Jesus was fully human and fully God
Mary gave birth to Jesus
Jesus was in her womb
Thus she is the Mother of God too.

Galatians 4
English Standard Version
Sons and Heirs
4 I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,[a] though he is the owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

Thanks for your response, but I was referring to my post #201 when suggesting to April_Rose to seek help understanding said post. Feel free to address it if you wish to do so.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Fidelibus]

We know what birth in humans means. The question is whether or not there is something in Scripture which teaches that a human gave birth to someone else. As it turns out, Mary is described in Scripture as giving birth to a human baby who is himself defined in Scripture as God.

Thanks for your fallible, non-authoritative opinion that is subject to error, but I was hoping to hear/see Scripture verses from Bob Carabbio.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Albion]

...I was hoping to hear/see Scripture verses from Bob Carabbio.

Bob can speak for himself, but at least we now have that gotcha question out of the way as he does so.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Here's what's weak in that approach. The Bible version which renders that verse as "full of grace" is the KJV. Just about every other translation, including the Roman Catholic ones, have it "found favor with God."

And even if you go by the KJV, thinking it to be definitive (a strange POV for any Catholic, I would think), then the meaning is not crystal clear anyway.

You are then forced to think of grace as something like milk or water and the person as something like a bottle or cannister, literally being "filled up" with a commodity. And that means that it would be possible to be only 3/4 in the state of grace or perhaps half full, which is definitely not a Catholic view of grace.

Here's what's weak in your approach. You base it on English translations and not on original languages. And I'm not sure I want to take your say-so for what a Catholic view of grace is.

 

[Albion]

Here's what's weak in your approach. You base it on English translations and not on original languages.

If you say so. Go ahead and explain the mistake that you think was made.

 

[chevyontheriver]

We know what birth in humans means. The question is whether or not there is something in Scripture which teaches that a human gave birth to someone else. As it turns out, Mary is described in Scripture as giving birth to a human baby who is himself defined in Scripture as God.

But are you saying that Mary gave birth 'only' to the human flesh of Jesus? I would hope you would not be saying that. Sounds like perhaps you are not saying that. Some do say and intend that.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If you say so. Go ahead and explain the mistake that you think was made.

Simply that you mentioned only English translations. As if the KJV means anything to me.

 

[Albion]

But are you saying that Mary gave birth 'only' to the human flesh of Jesus?

No.

 

[Albion]

Simply that you mentioned only English translations. As if the KJV means anything to me.

Well, it is what Catholics normally quote when arguing for the Immaculate Conception or the sinlessness of Mary.

I did mention that doing so seems odd for the very reason you are referring to now.

 

[Fidelibus]

Bob can speak for himself, but at least we now have that gotcha question out of the way as he does so.

This is what I was referring to when I said your opinions are subject to error. There is no "gotcha" question.



Have a Blessed day!

 

[Albion]

This is what I was referring to when I said your opinions are subject to error. There is no "gotcha" question.

Of course it's a "gotcha" question to request a verse from the Bible that DISproves something that isn't taught by the Bible and should not, therefore, be made into a doctrine by any church.

Doing that is no different from asking the proverbial "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" question.

 

[Monksailor]

Even Mary becomes our mother in the faith,

Please show me one single verse, in context, in God's Holy Word which clearly and directly supports your opinion that Jesus' mother "becomes our mother in the faith." To make such a statement equates Jesus' human, sinful, mother to God the sinless, Holy Father; our Father whereby we may also name Abba, Daddy. The idea that Jesus' mother is also our mother in the faith, a goddess so to speak-someone to pray to and worship, is merely a conjecture, opinion, erroneously and widely embraced and sub-sequentially humanly indoctrinated and established. But you and yours are free, by the grace of God, to believe whatever you want to believe. Just remember that Jesus said that there is ONLY ONE WAY to the father in heaven in John 14:6, NOT through our "good" works/sacraments, NOT through ANY human being including his mother or the President, Pope, or Indian Chief; but only and exclusively through HIM, Jesus, the Messiah, God the Son, the one and only Scriptural Mediator between God and man, Creator and Sustainer of all.