WHat side are you on???

[TomInCT]

I am sure you have all heard of people saying.."Oh, I believe in evolution but I believe in God also; He's the one who started it all and gave evolution everything it needed to get going like matter, energy, etc.."

What is evolution? Evolution is basically a long long long series of screw-ups until something goes right and is then considered an evolvement (a positive change for the advancement of life and matter). Mutations are the most common theory of evolutionary changes or advancement and how everything came to be. You have probably seen many mutated cows and different animals that are born with an extra foot, leg, head, etc... These errors are obviously not "advancements" or "proof of evolution" as most evolutionists will tell you, yet they are a hinderance to the creature that it has happened to. Most creatures in the wild that have a hinderance of this nature will be killed or unable to survive due to this genetic error. Yet, the fairytale believers, sorry, I mean evolutionists will tell you that YES! this is proof of evolution!! They are dead wrong.

My point to that little story is that if someone tells you that they believe in evolution, then they do not believe in the same God we do because our God is perfect and did not create everything through trial and error... the God that they believe in who created everything through this error-filled technique called evolution is surely not our God; yet their evolutionary God is one who is not perfect and created everythig by blind chance and better belongs in their childrens' fairy tale books.

Lastly, and yes, this time it is lastly, lol, how many theories of Creation are there to us Christians? 1... How many theories of evolution are there? 33, the latest being punctuated equilibrium. What does this mean? This means that the 33rd theory that evolutionists are on have proved the 32 prior theories wrong. Now, which side would you choose; the side that has 1 theory that has never been proven false or the other side that has been proven false 32 times so far? No-brainer. (Soon this 33rd theory will be proven false..it teaches that since we have seen no evidence of evolution, punctuated equilibrium is true...It teaches that the way species have evolved and the way the varieties have come about is through a certain species giving birth to a different species....for example, a duck laying an egg and a cat hatching out of the egg, or a snake...I am not joking, this is literally what this theory teaches...Really smart, intelligent people these evolutionists are huh guys?) They need because their hypothesis makes me

I am not a very smart person, I just listen to what both sides have to say, that's all...

Tom

PS-Any thoughts??

 

[ThePhoenix]

Yeah, my thought is that Evolution is a theory that is constantly improving, with hundreds, if not thousands of experiments supporting it,and creationism is a belief with no evidence behind it except two contradictory chapters of a 1600 year old book, that may have been metaphorical anyway (and that the Pope said were metaphorical).

 

[Pete Harcoff]

My point to that little story is that if someone tells you that they believe in evolution, then they do not believe in the same God we do because our God is perfect and did not create everything through trial and error... the God that they believe in who created everything through this error-filled technique called evolution is surely not our God; yet their evolutionary God is one who is not perfect and created everythig by blind chance and better belongs in their childrens' fairy tale books.

So, instead your God created lifeforms full of suboptimal, jury-rigged and redundant designs. Seems like an odd thing for a "perfect" creator to do...

It teaches that the way species have evolved and the way the varieties have come about is through a certain species giving birth to a different species....for example, a duck laying an egg and a cat hatching out of the egg, or a snake...I am not joking, this is literally what this theory teaches...Really smart, intelligent people these evolutionists are huh guys?) They need because their hypothesis makes me

Say what? Maybe you should read up on evolutionary theory before making ridiculous strawman caricatures about what you clearly do not understand.

 

[Hank]

I am on neither side.

I think religion is a philosophy of hope. Science tries to answer tough questions, give it a chance. Once you accept a doctrine, that doctrine can not be changed. I have no problem being wrong a thousand times. At least I admit that I am/was.

 

[MartinM]

Lastly, and yes, this time it is lastly, lol, how many theories of Creation are there to us Christians?

Scientific theories? None. A few falsified hypotheses, perhaps...

How many theories of evolution are there? 33, the latest being punctuated equilibrium. What does this mean? This means that the 33rd theory that evolutionists are on have proved the 32 prior theories wrong

You know how many models of the atom there have been? Guess they don't exist, then. Oh, and our hypotheses on the exact shape of the Earth have gone from 'flat' to 'perfect sphere' to various slight departures from sphericity. Guess the Earth doesn't exist, either.

Now, which side would you choose; the side that has 1 theory that has never been proven false or the other side that has been proven false 32 times so far? No-brainer

Yep. Obviously, the latter. The former are simply dogmatists, whereas the latter refine their theories on the basis of new evidence, just as general relativity is a refinement (not a replacement) of Newtonian mechanics.

It teaches that the way species have evolved and the way the varieties have come about is through a certain species giving birth to a different species....for example, a duck laying an egg and a cat hatching out of the egg, or a snake...I am not joking, this is literally what this theory teaches...

No, it isn't.

their hypothesis makes me

Evidently.

 

[Arikay]

Actually there are a number of creationist theories.

From Young earth creationists, to Old Earth creationists, to IDists.

Your god makes funny "perfect" designs. If I was his teacher, I would give him and F.

If you want evidence that falsifies creationism, stick around and read posts.

 

[LadyShea]

Yet, the fairytale believers

Wait a minute...which of us believes in talking snakes, people rising from the dead, invisible beings of all kinds and 2 of every species getting on a little boat?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Wait a minute...which of us believes in talking snakes, people rising from the dead, invisible beings of all kinds and 2 of every species getting on a little boat?

Not to mention 900 year old men and a woman changing into a pillar of salt and the sun "standing still" or moving backwards and wasn't there a talking donkey in there somewhere and a tree so tall you could see the whole earth from the top?

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[lucaspa]

What is evolution? Evolution is basically a long long long series of screw-ups until something goes right and is then considered an evolvement (a positive change for the advancement of life and matter). Mutations are the most common theory of evolutionary changes or advancement and how everything came to be. You have probably seen many mutated cows and different animals that are born with an extra foot, leg, head, etc... These errors are obviously not "advancements" or "proof of evolution" as most evolutionists will tell you,

No evolutionist is going to tell you this. This is the cartoon version of evolution.

Natural selection is an algorithm to get design. Lots of possible designs for every problem the environment poses. Selection then picks among them for the best design. Then inheritance preserves that design so new improvements can be made in the next generation. Most mutations are NOT the harmful ones you portray, but instead are incremental improvements in the system.

Natural selection is such a good process to get design that humans use it when the design problem is too tough for them.

My point to that little story is that if someone tells you that they believe in evolution, then they do not believe in the same God we do because our God is perfect

And that may be the problem. Your god and God are not the same.

This is the attitude that got God into deep trouble early in the 19th century. You have a "perfect" God making each and every creature. The problem is that, when you REALLY examine creatures, most of the designs are NOT perfect. In fact, many of them are sadistic and stupid. In many cases, designs are much better in one creature than in another using the same type of organ. For instance, humans and primates have a good thumb for grasping. The panda doesn't. Yet, if a perfect God made both, did God forget that he made a good thumb in primates (and was going to make one in humans) and make the Panda a really dumb thumb? Doesn't that indicate that God has Alzheimer's?

That's the problem, Tim. IF we take your idea that God made each species separately, then looking at the designs in creatures indicates that God is stupid, sadistic, and has Alzheimer's. Since God is none of those, Christians leaped at evolution for getting God out of a box that YOU and fellow creationists put Him into. Evolution was viewed as a rescuer in the 1800s, not a threat. In fact, Christians accepted evolution a lot faster than scientists did.

Lastly, and yes, this time it is lastly, lol, how many theories of Creation are there to us Christians? 1

For Biblical literalists, at least 3. Genesis 1, Genesis 2, and Genesis 5....

How many theories of evolution are there? 33, the latest being punctuated equilibrium. What does this mean? This means that the 33rd theory that evolutionists are on have proved the 32 prior theories wrong.

I wish creationists would read St. Augustine. He warned about this.

They need because their hypothesis makes me

That you are confused may say more about you than about the hypotheses.

Look, if you have trouble understanding evolution, then ASK! Put them in the thread "Questions for lucaspa" if you want.

 

[TomInCT]

Well, I knew I would get every goin

Well, as far as the "imperfect designs" go that you guys are referring to, you are misunderstanding...God created created everything perfect to start with....Adam and Eve chose free will which then allowed man to do what he wants so to speak. Satan (the guy you guys probably like, yes or no??? and im not being sarcastic, let me know) was the one who was then allowed to mess everything up because of man's choice of free will. He made something that was perfect, imperfect. After eating from the forbidden tree, things changed big time... Disease came about, genetic imperfections, etc to God's perfect creation.


Lady Shea- Yes, people actually did live insane long lives like 900 years as you said, you are 100 % correct on that. And there is evidence for a theory that explains exactly why they lived that long. And also why scientists find human bodies that are over 10 feet tall...they found one 20 years ago in Italy that was 13 feet tall...Also, The ark was not small by any means..God warned Noah 120 years before the Flood was to come. That means he had 120 years to build a boat big enought o fit two of each into it. Now, int hat length of time, with a few people working on that boat, you could make it pretty big. So, it was not small...

Phoenix- What experiments are "proving" evolution? I have yet to see any solid proof of it...If you do know of anyone with solid, mandable evidence that definately proves evolution totally true, I know a creation scientist that will pay out $100,000 to that individual... I have his contact information if you know of anyone...


Pete- I have read up on evolutionary theory and it is really weak, just like ur statement stating that I don't know what I am talking about...I am 23 years old and have been studying this debate for 12 years...

Hank- You are right, religion is largely based on hope...especially the religion of evolution...Evolution is more of a religion then Christianity because religion is based on hope and faith...To believe most of the stuff evolution teaches us, you need to have more faith because it is so hard to believe...such as Newtown's 2nd law which basically says matter cannot be created from nothing which is what the Big Bang theory and evolution teaches...

Martin- Yes, that is what punctuated equilibrium teaches...

Arikay- There are a # of different creation theories outside of the Christian faith but only 1 theory of Creation in the Christian faith, which is the theory that is discussed here. There has always been only 1 theory until schoffers (who are mentioned in 2nd Peter) made up theories of their own from the original theory.

 

[MartinM]

such as Newtown's 2nd law which basically says matter cannot be created from nothing which is what the Big Bang theory and evolution teaches...

Tee-hee. Tee-hee. And, verily, tee-hee.

Yes, that is what punctuated equilibrium teaches...

No, it isn't. Got a reference to back up your claim?

 

[Arikay]

"Phoenix- What experiments are "proving" evolution? I have yet to see any solid proof of it...If you do know of anyone with solid, mandable evidence that definately proves evolution totally true, I know a creation scientist that will pay out $100,000 to that individual... I have his contact information if you know of anyone..."

Would his name be Hovind? Or did someone steal Hovinds idea?

Hovind is offering $250,000 to anyone who can prove his false version of Evolution to be true.

"I am 23 years old and have been studying this debate for 12 years..."

Exactly what and where have you been studying? Ive been studing this debate for less than a year and seem to understand Evolution better than this (and my understanding pales in comparison with others here).

May I suggest you be willing to learn and ask questions and you can learn a lot here.

"Arikay- There are a # of different creation theories outside of the Christian faith but only 1 theory of Creation in the Christian faith, which is the theory that is discussed here. There has always been only 1 theory until schoffers (who are mentioned in 2nd Peter) made up theories of their own from the original theory."

So, which is the "correct" theory?

[snip]

 

[troodon]

Well, I knew I would get every goin

Well, as far as the "imperfect designs" go that you guys are referring to, you are misunderstanding...God created created everything perfect to start with....Adam and Eve chose free will which then allowed man to do what he wants so to speak. Satan... was the one who was then allowed to mess everything up because of man's choice of free will. He made something that was perfect, imperfect. After eating from the forbidden tree, things changed big time... Disease came about, genetic imperfections, etc to God's perfect creation.

So Satan has been putting latent genes into the genomes of organisms in order to deceive us? I bet you convince a lot of non-believers with that.

Satan (the guy you guys probably like, yes or no??? and im not being sarcastic, let me know)

This makes me mad.

Lady Shea- Yes, people actually did live insane long lives like 900 years as you said, you are 100 % correct on that. And there is evidence for a theory that explains exactly why they lived that long.

From your pastor? Or are we talking about actual medical research?

And also why scientists find human bodies that are over 10 feet tall...they found one 20 years ago in Italy that was 13 feet tall...

That's news to me. Do you have a paper in which an anthropologist described these outstanding finds?

Hank- You are right, religion is largely based on hope...especially the religion of evolution...Evolution is more of a religion then Christianity because religion is based on hope and faith...

Cool, I'm in two religions and didn't even know it! I must have more faith than any man alive!

such as Newtown's 2nd law which basically says matter cannot be created from nothing

At what stage in biological evolution is matter created from nothing?

Martin- Yes, that is what punctuated equilibrium teaches...

"for example, a duck laying an egg and a cat hatching out of the egg, or a snake" is not punctuated equilibrium. It's your cartoon version of punctuated equilibrium. Sort of like atheist cartoons/stories showing God delighting in the deaths of those he smites. I prefer Gummi Bears when I want cartoons

Arikay- There are a # of different creation theories outside of the Christian faith but only 1 theory of Creation in the Christian faith, which is the theory that is discussed here. There has always been only 1 theory until schoffers (who are mentioned in 2nd Peter) made up theories of their own from the original theory.

What are you talking about? ID, YEC, OEC, YEC (6,000-12,000 year variety) are not different theories of creation?

PS: Does anyone know why these fonts are getting so messed up?

 

[wblastyn]

Exactly what and where have you been studying? Ive been studing this debate for less than a year and seem to understand Evolution better than this (and my understanding pales in comparison with others here).

Yes, I'd like to know too. I've been in this forum for only a few months I think and I seem to know more than this guy, although no where near as much as others here.

 

[Loudmouth]

I shall lurk no more. Hey everybody, this is my first post at this website. Love the discussions I've read so far. This site has a lot of potential (in the Science forum anyway, haven't ventured out to the other topics).

Anyway, getting to the topic at hand.

am not a very smart person, I just listen to what both sides have to say, that's all...

Yes, your post is just oozing with objectivity. If you have heard both sides, answer the following questions about the theories and beliefs you know/heard so much about:

1. What is natural selection?

2. What role do mutations play in the Theory of Evolution?

3. Is belief in the veracity of Evolution equivalent to religious faith, and why?

4. What theory of creation to you espouse, YEC, OEC, ID?

5. What evidence supports creation and how is it falsifiable, or do you need evidence?

Just to be fair I will answer those very same questions:

1. A natural phenomena that affects the reproductive success or failure of all organisms.

2. Mutations, when heritable, provide differences in populations that natural selection can act upon.

3. My belief in Evolution is predicated on physical and testable evidence that can be found false at any time by scientific methods. If such evidence came to light, I would have no problem dropping Evolution as the best interpretation of the facts. Religious faith is a personal belief of my relationship with God and cannot be addressed by Science.

4. I don't believe any model of creation posed so far is indicative of the physical truth, and in fact is contrary to almost all physical evidence.

5. No evidence that I have seen supports the special creation of species as written in Genesis. In light of our ability to reason, I believe evidence is necessary for one to claim the Genesis account as fact instead of metaphor. For instance, when Jesus taught using stories (e.g., parable of the Widow's mite) which was more important, whether the actual account actually happened or the lessons that it conveyed?

 

[wblastyn]

Well, I knew I would get every goin

Well, as far as the "imperfect designs" go that you guys are referring to, you are misunderstanding...God created created everything perfect to start with....Adam and Eve chose free will which then allowed man to do what he wants so to speak. Satan (the guy you guys probably like, yes or no??? and im not being sarcastic, let me know) was the one who was then allowed to mess everything up because of man's choice of free will. He made something that was perfect, imperfect. After eating from the forbidden tree, things changed big time... Disease came about, genetic imperfections, etc to God's perfect creation.

So humans have the information for a tail in their genome because of sin?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Well, I knew I would get every goin

Well, as far as the "imperfect designs" go that you guys are referring to, you are misunderstanding...God created created everything perfect to start with....Adam and Eve chose free will which then allowed man to do what he wants so to speak. Satan (the guy you guys probably like, yes or no??? and im not being sarcastic, let me know) was the one who was then allowed to mess everything up because of man's choice of free will. He made something that was perfect, imperfect. After eating from the forbidden tree, things changed big time... Disease came about, genetic imperfections, etc to God's perfect creation.

So, humans evolved the genes to produce tails since the Fall? What about whales? Did they evolve the genes to produce legs?

Pete- I have read up on evolutionary theory and it is really weak, just like ur statement stating that I don't know what I am talking about...I am 23 years old and have been studying this debate for 12 years...

You said, "[Punctuated Equilibrium] teaches that the way species have evolved and the way the varieties have come about is through a certain species giving birth to a different species....for example, a duck laying an egg and a cat hatching out of the egg, or a snake...I am not joking, this is literally what this theory teaches...".

Anyone who knows anything about "punk-eek", knows that it does NOT teach that an organism gives birth to an entirely different species. "Punk-eek" is a model which describes speciation that occurs when a group of organisms become isolated from their main population and undergo increased evolution due to differing environmental pressures. However, the changes are still gradual on a generation-to-generation basis.

What you described, however, will NOT be found in any textbook on evolutionary biology, anywhere.

 

[troodon]

I shall lurk no more. Hey everybody, this is my first post at this website.

Welcome

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Look's like we have a Hovind follower here. I am sure that everything doesn't fit his religious preconceptions will bounce right off and be ignored but here goes.

Lady Shea- Yes, people actually did live insane long lives like 900 years as you said, you are 100 % correct on that.

I wonder what they did when their teeth wore down to nothing. Did they eat gruel the rest of their lives or did pre-flood humans constantly grow new teeth like sharks? I guess they had telomerase to prevent their fibroblasts from getting senescent.

And there is evidence for a theory that explains exactly why they lived that long. And also why scientists find human bodies that are over 10 feet tall...they found one 20 years ago in Italy that was 13 feet tall.

I guess you haven't noticed that really tall people don't live especially long lives. It also looks like someone has been feeding you some really bogus creationist nonsense.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[TomInCT]

Yes, his name is Kent Hovind...I figured you guys should know him...


Martin- I am at work...What is the exact definition of punctuated equilibrium??? I don't have any references at work here, sorry man....


Troodon, to answer ur questions...

At what stage in biological evolution is matter created from nothing?

-Before the Big bang happened...Where did the matter come from? Thats what I am referring to. And where did the energy to get that matter moving come from?


From your pastor? Or are we talking about actual medical research?

-No, not from my pastor, from one of Hovind's theories actually...And goes hand in hand with the rest of the theory.


That's news to me. Do you have a paper in which an anthropologist described these outstanding finds?


-If absolutely necessary, I could find you research materials from newspaper writing, National Geographic, etc that has this info in it but I think you must know this already, no?


This makes me mad.
-Why does that make you mad? I was honestly asking...It sorta seems like some of you do not believe in God or flat out think He's imperfect, meaning Satan would be on the same level...Please explain what ur feelings are towards the God you believe in.


What are you talking about? ID, YEC, OEC, YEC (5,000-12,000 year variety) are not different theories of creation?


-Okay, the basic original theory of creation is taught ion Genesis ...We all know that one...6,000 year old earth, adam and eve, etc...people (schoffers) have taken that theory and made their own theories to suit their personal beliefs on exactly how the creation happened; Those theories that don't go along with Genesis are not actually theories, but rather they are unbiblical add-ons that have become known to us as "theories" when they are really just personal beliefs.


I am leaving work soon, I'll be back on tomorrow. God Bless you all!