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lismore

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Indeed as I scan a list of British Monarchs, I see no such traits as you suggest, though perhaps you are referencing Henry VIII, noted serial monogamist.

Charles II, James II and George I openly kept many mistresses at court. Indeed Charles' illegitimate son James tried to start a revolution in 1685. William III had a fifteen year old lover who was awarded with a peerage and he came to power in Holland through political assassination. George II was responsible for atrocities and extra- judicial executions that have been described as 'ethnic cleansing' and indeed were the worst atrocities in 18th Century Europe. Queen Victoria popularized spiritualism in this country through her activities trying to contact her deceased husband Albert and according to Prime Minister Disraeli personally struggled with the existence of God. And it goes on.

I don't think any of these characters would even pass a membership interview in a church. God Bless :)
 
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lismore

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I am not certain that this is a logical as you think it is. You seem to be suggesting that the Church should some how be exempt from the constraints of secular government, yet some how be enabled to advance it's own cause and influence. That just is not how a pluralist democracy works. Do you see this working for all sorts of religious expressions, such as Islam, Judaism, and the Klingons on the starboard bow.

On a basic level I'm saying that non-Christians shouldn't be permitted leadership roles in the church. God Bless :)
 
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prodromos

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I am not certain that this is a logical as you think it is. You seem to be suggesting that the Church should some how be exempt from the constraints of secular government, yet some how be enabled to advance it's own cause and influence. That just is not how a pluralist democracy works. Do you see this working for all sorts of religious expressions, such as Islam, Judaism, and the Klingons on the starboard bow.
 
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lismore

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I wonder what that has to do with Constantine then? He had no influence on the decisions made by the Church, he simply provided the means whereby bishops from all over the empire could gather and defend the teaching of the Apostles. You seem to believe that Constantine changed the Church. Is that a reasonable assumption on my part?

From your own paragraph you're saying that Constantine changed the church. Where in the New Testament did a Roman Emperor 'provide the means whereby bishops from all over the empire could gather and defend the teaching of the Apostles.' ?
 
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prodromos

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From your own paragraph you're saying that Constantine changed the church. Where in the New Testament did a Roman Emperor 'provide the means whereby bishops from all over the empire could gather and defend the teaching of the Apostles.' ?
He had no influence on the teaching of the Church. He did not have a leadership position in the Church.
 
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lismore

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I suspect your relatives are ignoring the teaching of their Church.

By Baptizing the insensible the church do themselves few favours, I have yet to see a baby who could understand a teaching. God Bless :)
 
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lismore

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He had no influence on the teaching of the Church. He did not have a leadership position in the Church.

If for example a church member killed their wife and a Roman Emperor killed their wife, would the church treat them both in the same manner? God Bless :)
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Hello Ignatius, I fear you are attacking what is referred to as a straw-man argument. I'm saying that the secular authorities should not have any power in the church. Christians should be active in the political sphere, the gospel needs to permeate society at every level. God Bless :)
Then I'm really confused as to what you've been arguing up until now.
 
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Philip_B

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I don't think any of these characters would even pass a membership interview in a church. God Bless :)
I don't think we have membership interviews, as we are a Church, not a social club.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't think we have membership interviews, as we are a Church, not a social club.

The Mormons do, amusingly enough. People with criminal records Ive heard are unwelcome.
 
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prodromos

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By Baptizing the insensible the church do themselves few favours, I have yet to see a baby who could understand a teaching. God Bless :)
No salvation for the mentally disabled then? Its a bit off topic but for the majority of Christians, baptism is the way we are joined to Christ. Life long repentance for the many times we fall is how we remain joined to Christ. If infants are not raised in the faith then how will they understand how to stay in the faith? It doesn't change the fact that they were joined to Christ in baptism, but it does mean their parents will be judged all the more harshly for their failure to teach their children.
 
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hedrick

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I don't think we have membership interviews, as we are a Church, not a social club.
I think many churches do. In the PCUSA a member has to be approved by Session. They’re asked to say something about their faith. We have two members with mental challenges, but both would have been able to say something. I don’t know what we would do with someone who was completely incapable of communication.
 
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The Liturgist

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So sinners only?

I have no idea as I am not a Mormon and regard their religion as a cult.

I think many churches do. In the PCUSA a member has to be approved by Session. They’re asked to say something about their faith. We have two members with mental challenges, but both would have been able to say something. I don’t know what we would do with someone who was completely incapable of communication.

The Orthodox would baptize them, chrismate them and give them the Eucharist, and so would I. I believe all Christians who confess the Creed and reject certain heretical beliefs are entitled to membership. In the case of the unbaptized, catechesis is the norm, followed by baptism of the catechumen (technically an energumen, just as a passed seminarian approved for ordination is an ordinand), but if the person has no intellectual capability to understand the catechesis, simply administering the sacraments, mysteries and sacramentals seems to me desirable. I believe the sacraments unite us with Christ in the Jordan, and at the Last Supper, regenerate us and infuse us with salvific grace; seal us with the holy spirit with the sacred chrism; they unite a married couple into one flesh, and the Holy Oil as implored for our use I have personally seen restore the flesh from diseases, albeit in a subtle way, and not the over the top healing services one associates with some televangelists. And holy water has a nourishing effect; it is consumed following the Eucharist in the Coptic liturgy and some Greek liturgies, and in addition in several liturgical rites is sprayed on the congregation. I love the Asperges Mea at the start of the Tridentine mass and other ancient variants of the Roman Rite, and the slightly more casual blessing of the faithful at the end of the Coptic Rite, before the antidoron is served.

Additionally, sacramental ordination elevate laity to Holy Orders and to the critical ranks of Reader, Deacon, Presbyter and Bishop (in the case of a Congregational church, I believe Congregational polity is justifiable scripturally on the basis of when churches were first established, the bishop directly presided over one congregation, assisted by presbyters and especially deacons; then, as more congregations were needed, a natural and proper transition to an episcopal model occurred; at present however, given the large increase in population and certain frustrating omissions in the schedules of many churches, for example, outside of the UK, it is very hard to find very traditional services on Sunday afternoon, and with most of our cities equal to or greater than Rome in population, with an even larger, lower density metropolitan area, there is a role for churches of Congregational as well as Episcopal and Presbyterian polity to play, and also a role for the traditions and heritage of the Congregational Church.

So, whereas in the Presbyterian polity, the role of the moderator vis a vis the general assembly looks a lot like the role of the Patriarch vis a vis the Holy Synod of an Orthodox church, in a Congregational polity I believe the senior teaching elder has the attributes of a bishop, the ruling elders, of a chorepiscopus or Choir Bishop serving as economos, and the junior ministers, presbyters, even though all are called “elder” as a result of influence from Calvinism and the Presbyterian polity. This polity, or something like it, is needed, however, to prevent the senior teaching elder from going rogue and taking the congregation with him (which could have happened with Jim Jones, who was a minister in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ before his apostasy; my understanding is the safeguards in their Congregational polity forced him out, hence his formation of the “People’s Temple.”

Returning to the efficacy of Baptism and Communion, and the other mysteries and sacramentals on the laity in the church, even if they lack the intellectual ability to communicate in any meaningful way, I find the holy sacraments, sacred mysteries and blessed sacramentals to be a delight, inherently uplifting and stimulating, and can recall feeling that about the Eucharist at a very young age, before I could clearly articulate why.
 
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The Liturgist

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From your own paragraph you're saying that Constantine changed the church. Where in the New Testament did a Roman Emperor 'provide the means whereby bishops from all over the empire could gather and defend the teaching of the Apostles.' ?

St. Paul wrote several of his epistles while benefitting from the hospitality of Claudius or Nero.
 
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The Liturgist

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If for example a church member killed their wife and a Roman Emperor killed their wife, would the church treat them both in the same manner? God Bless :)

Yes. St. John Chrysostom was exiled and death-marched because in a series of sermons he criticized the decadent lifestyle of Empress Theodora, in particular her acquisition of a toilet, or the 4th century equivalent thereof (Romans did have plumbing and sewers), that was made of solid gold. It was the position of the Church of Constantinople and St. John Chrysostom, the Patriarch of said church, that she have the gold in that toilet given to charity.

Also in more recent times, the Church of England was instrumental in pressuring King Edward VIII to abdicate rather than wed Wallis Simpson while still king.
 
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Root of Jesse

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It is always very "dangerous", "risky", etc, I mean just look what it did to Christianity in the form of the Catholic church after they did that over the ages, etc, and how very far removed they became from the true Christianity that existed before that, etc...

But, that much being said, I do believe it was all a part of God's overall plan for that time, and going into the future after that, etc, but I think it needs a very drastic severe makeover now, etc...

Like giving up their idols for one thing, and them all going back to much more true Christian ways way before that union was ever done and/or formed, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
What did associating with Constantine 'do' to Christianity? Specifically.
I'm not talking about the Renaissance, when there were several popes with worldly aspirations.
Regarding constant reform, yes, we all need constant reform. Without conscious movement in that direction, we're all doomed.
Regarding your last statement, not for this thread, but we don't have idols. We worship God and He alone.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I don't know exactly, I just know that it was pretty effective for many, many years, despite some of it's flaws, with getting the Gospel out and spread all over during that time, etc...
Without the Catholic Church (including EO and other Orthodox) you wouldn't have a Protestant Church to fall on.
And not everyone within the Catholic church was "bad" either, or a bad person, or was completely full of bad, evil people either, and many of them, and many of the saints most especially, etc, were very very holy, and very, very good people, who did a lot of good things, etc, and many really were very much genuinely and truly very humble people also, etc, and at least that church saw the wisdom in recognizing that over the ages, etc, I just wished they didn't felt like they had to diefy them, etc...
As a matter of fact, most, a vast majority, weren't "bad". What I don't understand about you and others is this...If you go to a strange doctor, and you don't appreciate the way he treats you, do you shun doctors in general? Or do you judge the medical profession because of said bad doctor? No. You move on. So were there bad people who say they're Catholic? Sure. Do some Catholics go over the top about some saints? Sure. But why not examine what the Church teaches, rather than how people practice?
It was mainly just some of the leadership that was bad, etc, but not all of all them were or are completely bad either, etc...

It might have been the right thing at the time for the "dark ages", and for some of what might be some very dark, or maybe even very much more darker times or ages otherwise or without them maybe, etc...?

Again, I don't really specifically know, etc, but just kind of feel like it was a part of God's plan for or at or during those times maybe, etc...?

But things are different now, and they need to change now, etc, or I fear for them now when Jesus comes back, etc...
Again, we are in constant need of reform, both personally, and as a Church. Same is true for every Church, we're all fallen humanity.
Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Trev T

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Constantine didn't get saved until his deathbed. Who knows if it's even possible to get saved on your death bed without doing anything, according to ROMAN CATHOLICS? He sure loved Christianity. lol. I don't get Roman Catholicism. This idea that God did it and the Romans didn't manipulate things. It seems absurd to believe that it's the perfection of Jesus and the Apostles. That's why I don't like Eastern Orthodoxy also.. what is their proof? Apostolic succession? They can't even prove half of it with doctrine. Sola Scriptura is the point of life. God may have lead Catholic councils to put the books together, but who cares? Martin Luther and the reformers managed to take the truth and dispel the garbage. Thinking Apostolic Succession corrupted itself, then Eastern Christianity fixed it, proves Apostolic Succession to be a wish in the wind as far as continuing today. Look at what Luther rebelled against. Look what the Catholics of the time were saying. Sure, he didn't rebel against Eastern Orthodoxy, in a way.. so i'll continue to give them the opportunity to persuade me. The Apostles set the foundation.. then what happened? I'm learning slowly. I'm just not grasping Constantine killing non-Christians forming "righteousness"... i know Protestants had a murderous history in some ways, but nothing you can't say "Sometimes people hold God accountable for man." God did some times destroy his creation, but justifiably. We are talking about the Pope, about all of it.. the righthand man to God. Eastern Orthodoxy is the reformation of Catholicism.. in a way.
 
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Philip_B

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Constantine didn't get saved until his deathbed.

Constantine was Baptised in the last period of his life, by Eusebius. Constantine had wanted to be baptised for some time, and was hoping that he might be baptised in the River Jordan, however he did not get to make the trip and the ill health precluded that altogether. There were at the time concerns about post baptismal sin, so many put it off as long as they could, and that may have been a factor in Constantine's delay in Baptism.

Who knows if it's even possible to get saved on your death bed without doing anything, according to ROMAN CATHOLICS?

I would have thought this was fairly evident and generally established Christian Theology. The Gospel account of the penitent thief on the cross should answer that for all of us. The truth is 'without doing anything' is indeed the issue, for be are saved by grace through faith not of works. That you have found it strangely necessary to capitalise Roman Catholics is indicative of a partisanship that may not be helpful in this discussion. The term Roman Catholic as implied as to referring to a particular branch of Christianity does not make a lot of sense before 1054.

He sure loved Christianity. lol. I don't get Roman Catholicism.

In general it might be said that most Christians would have preferred Constantine to Diocletian or Licinius. Constantine did hold Christianity in high esteem, the lifelong faith of his mother, Helena. The new city , Nova Romanum that came to be called Constantinople was indeed dedicated to the Christian God, under the patronage of the Virgin Mother of God. I am not sure why we need to lol these things. I think most of us understood that you don't get Roman Catholicism, but thankyou for clarifying this point.

This idea that God did it and the Romans didn't manipulate things. It seems absurd to believe that it's the perfection of Jesus and the Apostles. That's why I don't like Eastern Orthodoxy also.. what is their proof? Apostolic succession? They can't even prove half of it with doctrine.

Constantine ordered and funded the production of 50 copies of the whole bible - in the days before printing and it is most likely that at least two of our most significant manuscripts for Biblical Research come from those copies. It is clear that Constantine saw a high value on the Scriptures. It is clear that both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church place a high value on scripture, and it forms part of the sloid basis of all their liturgy.

Sola Scriptura is the point of life. God may have lead Catholic councils to put the books together, but who cares? Martin Luther and the reformers managed to take the truth and dispel the garbage.

It is one thing to suggest that the purpose of humankind is to give glory to God, however to argue that Sola Scripture is the point of life is fanciful. God did lead lead the Councils and the Church to establish the Canon of Scripture, which you rightly describe as 'the books'. You ask, 'who cares?' Most Christians care, The Catholic Church cares, the Orthodox Church cares, the Anglican Church cares, the Lutheran Church cares. It seems hard to understand how you can say Sola Scripture and then ask Who Cares?. It appears to be a disjointed juxtaposition. I am not at all certain that Martin Luther would have described his contribution to the development of Christianity in the way that your do.

Thinking Apostolic Succession corrupted itself, then Eastern Christianity fixed it, proves Apostolic Succession to be a wish in the wind as far as continuing today.

I am not sure what your beef with Apostolic Succession is. I have never heard anyone suggest that it corrupted itself and Eastern Christianity fixed it. We stand in a tradition of faith that has history and continuity, and part of the expression of that unity in Christ is expressed in terms of Apostolic Succession. The ministry that Christ has handed to his Church is handed on from one generation to another. It is one faith, one body, and the idea of the historic episcopate is but one way of expressing it.

Look at what Luther rebelled against. Look what the Catholics of the time were saying. Sure, he didn't rebel against Eastern Orthodoxy, in a way.. so i'll continue to give them the opportunity to persuade me.

Luther rebelled (though I am not at all sure that was how Luther understood it) and the thesis nailed to the door of Wittenberg Cathedral give us good insight as to what Luther saw as key issues, together with his defence before the Diet of Worms. Central to this was the notion that Christian Life should be marked by repentance. To took issue with the idea of a treasury of merit, and the sale of indulgences which was being used as a method of fund raising for the new Basilica of St Peter in Rome.

Lutherans did have significant consultations with the Patriarch of Constantinople, however ultimately that came to nothing.

The Apostles set the foundation.. then what happened? I'm learning slowly. I'm just not grasping Constantine killing non-Christians forming "righteousness"... i know Protestants had a murderous history in some ways, but nothing you can't say "Sometimes people hold God accountable for man." God did some times destroy his creation, but justifiably. We are talking about the Pope, about all of it.. the righthand man to God. Eastern Orthodoxy is the reformation of Catholicism.. in a way.

Jesus is the cornerstone on which God has built the Church. Let me encourage you to keep learning, because sometimes there are distortions in many circles, let me encourage you to read widely, and to think critically, and don't forget to say your prayers.

(On a side note. Your post may have been easier to read if you employed the use of paragraphs.)
 
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