timothyu

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So God abandoned His Church?
No but many in the church abandoned His Kingdom in favour of what the world could offer them as they built an institution no different than any other of man. The Way was replaced with their way.
 
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timothyu

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If you go back to the early Church, there is an orthodox interpretation which even today most Christians everywhere will agree on, and those that don’t agree are from small or unusual denominations or non-denominational megachurches, who subscribe to interpretations which CF.com regards as heterodox.
That's not the case here, but I see the spirit of duress and attempted false witness is still alive and well as it was in the days of the Temple and throughout Christianity..
 
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The Liturgist

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That's not the case here, but I see the spirit of duress and attempted false witness is still alive and well as it was in the days of the Temple and throughout Christianity..

Listen, no offense my friend, but, I am totally confused by your posts. You keep talking angrily about oppression, the Kingdom of God and other things, but you are not linking it together into any kind of theological statement I can reply to.
 
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prodromos

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That's not the case here, but I see the spirit of duress and attempted false witness is still alive and well as it was in the days of the Temple and throughout Christianity..
You must be looking in a mirror.
 
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The Liturgist

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Because Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom was not a theological statement,.

Can you please explain what you mean by “Gospel of the Kingdom”?
 
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Philip_B

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Because Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom was not a theological statement,.
The word 'Theology' is a construction of two Greek words THEOS meaning 'God' and LOGOS meaning 'Words' or 'Wisdom'. Consequently Theology is the study of, or words about, God.

As Jesus came and proclaimed the Kingdom of God, you can not pretend that Jesus did so without it being a theological statement. You might argue that Jesus spoke from experience, from wisdom, from relationship, rather than from philosophical construction, however I do not believe you can speak of the Kingdom of God without making a theological statement.
 
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Philip_B

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Jesus gave us the Gospel of the Kingdom, saying it was why He was sent. Not words about God, but words from God.
Jesus said 'The Kingdom of God is within you'.

Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, ‘The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, “Look, here it is!” or “There it is!” For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you.’ Luke 17:20-21 NRSV

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20-21 KJV

Now this is clearly a theological statement. As is, I might say, the sentence that reads "Jesus gave us the Gospel of the Kingdom, saying it was why He was sent. Not words about God, but words from God." However given our mutual assertion of the Divinity of Jesus (another theological statement) it would seem that any words from Jesus would indeed be words from God.
 
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hedrick

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Jesus said 'The Kingdom of God is within you'.

Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, ‘The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, “Look, here it is!” or “There it is!” For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you.’ Luke 17:20-21 NRSV

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20-21 KJV

Now this is clearly a theological statement. As is, I might say, the sentence that reads "Jesus gave us the Gospel of the Kingdom, saying it was why He was sent. Not words about God, but words from God." However given our mutual assertion of the Divinity of Jesus (another theological statement) it would seem that any words from Jesus would indeed be words from God.
Or “among you,” which is a more likely translation. That is, his response to people looking for it to come in various ways was “it’s already here” in the person of Jesus and his people.
 
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lismore

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Why was it a mistake or mostly a mistake for the Church to associate with the Imperium?

If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you (John 15:29).

Given that the church and a worldly Empire were polar opposites an association would involve some form of a compromise. Jesus talked of a small gate and a narrow path to life and only a few finding it (Matthew 7:13-14), how does this gel with the idea of a Christian Empire in which everyone is superficially a Christian?

Then the follow up would be:

What should the Church have done instead?

What Jesus told them to do. Preach the truth. God Bless :)
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you (John 15:29).

Given that the church and a worldly Empire were polar opposites an association would involve some form of a compromise. Jesus talked of a small gate and a narrow path to life and only a few finding it (Matthew 7:13-14), how does this gel with the idea of a Christian Empire in which everyone is superficially a Christian?

Would the better course be for the Church to be marginal? Completely ineffective at spreading the Gospel or news of Christ?

There is a sense in which you are right. The Church proper is not part of this world, we are called to a higher way of living. Does this then therefore mean no Christian can participate in the secular process? Does an individual Christian have no responsibility when they have received political power to use it to do what is right, rather than what is wrong?

The suggestion seems to be that in order to live apart from the world it means we cannot be part of earthly organizations, peoples and communities. But was that the point of the Gospel? How does this Christianity actually succeed? How does it make a positive impact on anyone's life or respond to hostile ideologies?



What Jesus told them to do. Preach the truth. God Bless :)

This doesn't answer the question because it doesn't deal with those people in the Church, like Constantine, who found themselves in a position of political power and the ability to use it. What should have Constantine done? What should have Theodosius done? Resign and give the Imperium to a Pagan?

Would this accomplish anything that would benefit the Church or the world at large?
 
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lismore

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Hello Kiwi, thanks for your reply!
Would the better course be for the Church to be marginal? Completely ineffective at spreading the Gospel or news of Christ?

Some people would argue that is indeed what happened. I have many relatives who believe they are 'in the club' because they were skooshed with water as a baby. They have no real interest in the bible or spirituality, don't attend church with any frequency but see themselves as part of Christendom. They certainly are not Christians in any operative sense but the goalposts were changed.


Does this then therefore mean no Christian can participate in the secular process?

No- some would argue that the issue is how much the secular process dominates the church, once the church is in bed with the secular that's what happens. I am sure there have been several presidents in the USA who were saved and became president, that does not mean that the United States government controls the Southern Baptist Convention. It's possible for the highest magistrate in the country to be a Christian and do a lot of good without having a State Church.

Compare that with the church of England who's head is a hereditary monarch. They might land well and have a monarch with some interest in Christianity, perhaps like the present Queen, or they may land badly as in past monarchs having as the head of the Church a Spiritualist medium or serial adulterer, murderer or paedophile- a complete joke. Is that increasing the influence of the gospel- having a villain as head of a state church? The church taking King Herod as their role model instead of John. God Bless :)
 
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Philip_B

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Some people would argue that is indeed what happened. I have many relatives who believe they are 'in the club' because they were skooshed with water as a baby. They have no real interest in the bible or spirituality, don't attend church with any frequency but see themselves as part of Christendom. They certainly are not Christians in any operative sense but the goalposts were changed.
I don't see what that has to do with Constantine.

Compare that with the church of England who's head is a hereditary monarch. They might land well and have a monarch with some interest in Christianity, perhaps like the present Queen, or they may land badly as in past monarchs having as the head of the Church a Spiritualist medium or serial adulterer, murderer or paedophile- a complete joke. God Bless :)
I would regard that as somewhat unlikely. Were such a person to rise to the throne, I suspect the check and balances would come into play. The English Monarch is of course not the Spiritual Head of the Church of England, simply the Temporal Head. No doubt Monarchs, like all the rest of us, have flaws. Indeed as I scan a list of British Monarchs, I see no such traits as you suggest, though perhaps you are referencing Henry VIII, noted serial monogamist.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Some people would argue that is indeed what happened. I have many relatives who believe they are 'in the club' because they were skooshed with water as a baby. They have no real interest in the bible or spirituality, don't attend church with any frequency but see themselves as part of Christendom. They certainly are not Christians in any operative sense but the goalposts were changed.

And how does you parochial view of Christianity advance the Gospel more than the historical Church actually did? Is it surprising that in a political culture where law in western secular countries isn't really allowed to reflect a religious morality, that many would be nominal Christians at best? There is no cultural pressure to retain the faith. Families no longer care if their members lose it. Governments encourage a libertine lifestyle so as to distract the people. But the solution is, what, more of this?

There will always be Christians in name only, but how does Christians giving up secular power achieve or better anyone? It was through Christians using their power (political, cultural and familial) that lead to the Christianization of the west and subsequently the world. When Kings converted their nations followed. When men converted their families came with them. This is a bad thing? How exactly?

No- some would argue that the issue is how much the secular process dominates the church, once the church is in bed with the secular that's what happens. I am sure there have been several presidents in the USA who were saved and became president, that does not mean that the United States government controls the Southern Baptist Convention. It's possible for the highest magistrate in the country to be a Christian and do a lot of good without having a State Church.

The USA continues in a direction of liberalism (left or right It doesn't matter). It drifts further and further away from Christian morality and you view the Church as a problem? Not a government that forswears any religious motivation and allows the project of the Enlightenment to continue unabated?

Do you have any positive examples of countries where your method has actually worked? What do you think of countries like Poland or Hungary which actually enshrine into their laws about marriage Christian principles on what it is? It's not liberal, but it's certainty Christian.

Compare that with the church of England who's head is a hereditary monarch. They might land well and have a monarch with some interest in Christianity, perhaps like the present Queen, or they may land badly as in past monarchs having as the head of the Church a Spiritualist medium or serial adulterer, murderer or paedophile- a complete joke. Is that increasing the influence of the gospel- having a villain as head of a state church? The church taking King Herod as their role model instead of John. as God Bless :)

How is England's embrace of modern western enlightenment principles an actual argument for doing away with Christianity in the political sphere? Would you prefer England disassociate with the Church completely and fall into a pointless secularism like France did? Or maybe Islam is the solution. At one time the Kingdom of England held on to Christianity as a principle which governed the general guidance of the nation. A King at one time had to commit themselves to public repentance for even accidently killing a Bishop.

I do wonder about the ability of Americans in particular to think beyond their worldview and indoctrination on this subject.
 
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prodromos

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Some people would argue that is indeed what happened. I have many relatives who believe they are 'in the club' because they were skooshed with water as a baby. They have no real interest in the bible or spirituality, don't attend church with any frequency but see themselves as part of Christendom.
I suspect your relatives are ignoring the teaching of their Church.
 
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lismore

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There will always be Christians in name only, but how does Christians giving up secular power achieve or better anyone? .

Hello Ignatius, I fear you are attacking what is referred to as a straw-man argument. I'm saying that the secular authorities should not have any power in the church. Christians should be active in the political sphere, the gospel needs to permeate society at every level. God Bless :)
 
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prodromos

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Hello Ignatius, I fear you are attacking what is referred to as a straw-man argument. I'm saying that the secular authorities should not have any power in the church. Christians should be active in the political sphere, the gospel needs to permeate society at every level. God Bless :)
I wonder what that has to do with Constantine then? He had no influence on the decisions made by the Church, he simply provided the means whereby bishops from all over the empire could gather and defend the teaching of the Apostles. You seem to believe that Constantine changed the Church. Is that a reasonable assumption on my part?
 
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Philip_B

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Hello Ignatius, I fear you are attacking what is referred to as a straw-man argument. I'm saying that the secular authorities should not have any power in the church. Christians should be active in the political sphere, the gospel needs to permeate society at every level. God Bless :)
I am not certain that this is a logical as you think it is. You seem to be suggesting that the Church should some how be exempt from the constraints of secular government, yet some how be enabled to advance it's own cause and influence. That just is not how a pluralist democracy works. Do you see this working for all sorts of religious expressions, such as Islam, Judaism, and the Klingons on the starboard bow.
 
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