What set the universe into motion?

[tacoman528]

This is a question for some of you Athiests,
If the Big Bang occured the way that I've heard Athiests say, "First there was nothing then there was a particle that contained everything, That particle blew up and the universe is expanding and it has ever since."
I've even heard them say that there was something even before the big bang. If there was nothing before the big bang, then where did the particle come from? The 1st law of Thermodynamics says that (without something to create it) no matter can be created or destroyed. Where did the particle come from? If there was matter before the big bang that clumped together to form this infinitesimal particle, then where did that come from. If the Particle had always been there, then what caused it to suddenly start expanding?


P.S.: Try to stay on subject and not veer off into insults and critisizms (Like about Dr. Hovind)

 

[Arikay]

A couple corrections:

It isnt just atheists that hold the views of science. People from all religions can understand science.

I believe it says that energy cant be created or destroyed, it just changes from one form to another.

There are a couple different theories, but unfortunatly no one knows for certain.

Originally posted by tacoman528
This is a question for some of you Athiests,
If the Big Bang occured the way that I've heard Athiests say, "First there was nothing then there was a particle that contained everything, That particle blew up and the universe is expanding and it has ever since."
I've even heard them say that there was something even before the big bang. If there was nothing before the big bang, then where did the particle come from? The 1st law of Thermodynamics says that (without something to create it) no matter can be created or destroyed. Where did the particle come from? If there was matter before the big bang that clumped together to form this infinitesimal particle, then where did that come from. If the Particle had always been there, then what caused it to suddenly start expanding?


P.S.: Try to stay on subject and not veer off into insults and critisizms (Like about Dr. Hovind)

 

[RufusAtticus]

Tacoman,

Are you ever going to respond to that email I sent you a while back? I can always post it here if you need to remember it.

The 1st law of Thermodynamics says that (without something to create it) no matter can be created or destroyed. Where did the particle come from?

m = e/(c*c)

 

[David Gould]

Matter not being created or destroyed is all about conservation of energy - in other words, if you have X amount of energy at one point then you will always have X amount of energy. You can alter what form it is in - in other words, you can have a bit of mass, a bit of velocity, a bit of heat and so on - but the total of all that must equal X amount of energy.

A lot of evidence suggests that the net amount of energy in the universe is zero. The universe, for example, has a charge of zero (it is not positively or negatively charged). Gravitational energy seems to cancel mass energy. There are some subtleties to the idea that I am not competent enough to understand but the tentative conclusion seems to be that the universe has zero energy.

If the universe has a net total of zero energy then its existence does not break the law of energy conservation.

As to how the universe became structured as it is, with the zero energy divided into areas of positive and negative energy, I do not know.

M-Theory has some interesting ideas but they are not testable at the moment.

I will wait and see what we discover.

 

[tacoman528]

To each and everyone of you,
okay, matter can be coverted to and from energy. Alright, sounds good to me. Now where did that energy come from?

 

[tacoman528]

To Atticus,
Sorry about that, my E-mail gets so much spam its rediculous. I'll go and see your message right now.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by tacoman528
To each and everyone of you,
okay, matter can be coverted to and from energy. Alright, sounds good to me. Now where did that energy come from?

Possibly a quantum singularity.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by tacoman528
To each and everyone of you,
okay, matter can be coverted to and from energy. Alright, sounds good to me. Now where did that energy come from?

As I said, there is a net total of zero energy in the universe. Zero energy does not need to come from anywhere - you get nothing absolutely free of charge. 

If you are asking how did that zero energy get spread out into the structures that we observed today, I don't know.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by tacoman528
This is a question for some of you Athiests,

Well, I'm not an atheist, but I probably give the same answer that most of them do - "I don't know, but we have some interesting theories".

It seems to me quite possible that the universe as we know it was created directly by God, but for all I know, it resulted from natural processes on a larger scale outside the scope of anything we can comprehend or perceive. I'm not gonna limit God to my imagination.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by tacoman528
To each and everyone of you,
okay, matter can be coverted to and from energy. Alright, sounds good to me. Now where did that energy come from?

We don't know yet, maybe it has always existed in a pre-universal soup, maybe it was made in some pre-universal event.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by tacoman528
This is a question for some of you Athiests,

Well, I'm not an atheist but I'll offer my two cents anyway...

If the Big Bang occured the way that I've heard Athiests say, "First there was nothing then there was a particle that contained everything, That particle blew up and the universe is expanding and it has ever since."
I've even heard them say that there was something even before the big bang. If there was nothing before the big bang, then where did the particle come from? The 1st law of Thermodynamics says that (without something to create it) no matter can be created or destroyed. Where did the particle come from? If there was matter before the big bang that clumped together to form this infinitesimal particle, then where did that come from. If the Particle had always been there, then what caused it to suddenly start expanding?


P.S.: Try to stay on subject and not veer off into insults and critisizms (Like about Dr. Hovind)

Fist it is energy that cannot be created or destroyed in this univers as far as we currently know, not matter, we can make matter and do so all the time. And still, it as only in this universe that we can apply that rule, we have no idea if it would be true outside of the universe or not.

About your basic question, we don't know and may never know what happened before the universe existed or outside the universe. There are some interesting theories out there right now, I'm not sure which ones I personaly like better at the moment and all of them are to some extent wrong right now, but as we learn more we'll be able to rifine them better.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Why is it that atheists and or evolutionists always answers a question about our universe saying maybe it's because of this or maybe it's because of that, it could be this or it could be that. Whenever asked about the possibility of a creation they say absolutly not and when they ask a question to us who believe in a creation they demand absolute answers? And if we dare ever say maybe or that we don't know for sure they act like they just proved themselves right. These guys are real pieces of work! Maybe,possibly, and I don't know are their favorite words when discribing evolution!

LewisWildermouth

as far as we currently know,

we have no idea if it would be true 

we don't know and may never know

I'm not sure 

We don't know yet

maybe it has 

maybe it was 

seebs

I don't know

but for all I know

David Gould

If you are asking ,       I don't know. 

RufusAtticus

Possibly a quantum singularity.

Arikay

There are a couple different theories, but unfortunatly no one knows for certain.

 

 

 

[kaotic]

Well with evolution we do know (we know a lot). But evolution has nothing to do with the "origin of life". We will probably never know how life began or what was before the big bang. But we do know that the big bang happen, and that evolution has happened. Right now there is no reason to worry about IMHO how life began, or what was before the big bang.

So when someone says "I don't know" it's a ok answer when it comes to the origin of life, and the before the big bang. There are theories about both but not really any evidence to support the theories. Creation is just another theory in the mix that has no evidence backing it up.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

I prefer to say "the evidence suggests...", or "the best current interpretation of the evidence is..."

Science does not claim to absolute, only to offer the most logical and accurate answers in light of observations. Remember, that for every question that science answers (or at least attempts to answer witht the best possible explanation), a dozen new questions come to light. For example, it became apparent based on the evidence in the last century, that the universe had begun at a particular point in time as a very small thing. Well, knowing that opened up a myriad of other questions. Where did that "thing" come from? What caused it to expand? What were it's properties like? ANd how exactly did it give rise to what we see today? As far as science goes, those questions are still being answered.

Also remember, that science by its very nature neither excludes nor includes God. It only deals with providing explanations for observable phenomenon.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by tacoman528
This is a question for some of you Athiests,
If the Big Bang occured the way that I've heard Athiests say, "First there was nothing then there was a particle that contained everything, That particle blew up and the universe is expanding and it has ever since."
I've even heard them say that there was something even before the big bang. If there was nothing before the big bang, then where did the particle come from? The 1st law of Thermodynamics says that (without something to create it) no matter can be created or destroyed. Where did the particle come from? If there was matter before the big bang that clumped together to form this infinitesimal particle, then where did that come from. If the Particle had always been there, then what caused it to suddenly start expanding?

Tacoman, we've done this in at least two other threads.  Why are you trying to rehash old territory?

First, this has nothing to do with atheism. All the evidence we have says the universe started with the event called the Big Bang.  Hugh Ross at www.reasons.org is convinced that the Big Bang is evidence for the existence of deity.

What you are asking is another question: What caused the Big Bang?

The correct answer is: "We don't know."  There are several hypotheses but insufficient data to decide between them. We can go into these if you want.

However, the argument using the 1st Law of Thermodynamics is not valid.  Physical laws describe what happens within the universe.  Therefore they are bounded by the universe and do not apply "before" there was a universe for them to operate in.  You cannot use a law describing how the universe works to forbid the universe from coming into existence in the first place.

You wonder about the expansion.  Remember that spacetime also came into existence at the Big Bang.  Not only was there no matter/energy, but no space and no time, either.  The nature of spacetime at the quantum level produces a repulsive force, and this accounts for the expansion of spacetime that has occurred since the BB.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by nephilimiyr
Why is it that atheists and or evolutionists always answers a question about our universe saying maybe it's because of this or maybe it's because of that, it could be this or it could be that. Whenever asked about the possibility of a creation they say absolutly not and when they ask a question to us who believe in a creation they demand absolute answers? 

Nephilimiyr, you have made a logical mistake.  You have tied creation to creationism.  Those are two separate terms and concepts.  Creation is a theological statement that deity created, often linked to a purpose of deity.  Creationism is a particular how that deity created.  What you have done is say that, if deity didn't create the way you say, then deity didn't create and doesn't exist.  The logical flaw is easy to see.

Now, I know for absolutely certainty that creationism is wrong.  Creation, OTOH, is possible.  Deity could have created using the mechanisms we have discovered by science.  Deity could have created the universe by the Big Bang, galaxies, stars, and planets by gravity, life by chemistry, and the diversity of life by evolution.

Other than your human intepretation of the Bible, do you have any reason to say deity could not have created that way?

From now on look carefully and see if you are talking about creation or creationism.

 

[lucaspa]

Originally posted by nephilimiyr
These guys are real pieces of work! Maybe,possibly, and I don't know are their favorite words when discribing evolution! 

The individuals you quoted were not describing evolution.  They were answering a specific question: Where did the matter/energy/spacetime of the universe come from?  And their answers are the scientifically correct ones.  They are using the appropriate tentativeness describing their claims.

The origin of the universe is not evolution!  Biological evolution is the origin of the diversity of species.  Didn't you ever notice that in On the Origin of the Species that Darwin never talked about the origin of life or the origin of matter/energy/spacetime?  The reason is simple: all of those were outside the theory.  Theories have boundaries.  Cell theory doesn't describe gravity.  Mendelian genetics doesn't describe Golgi apparati.  Gravity doesn't describe the diversity of species. Etc.

Now, you want to ask me about evolution, you won't get the qualifiers.  OTOH, ask me about the origin of the universe and you get the same qualifiers everyone else used.

Don't mix apples and rocks.

 

[webboffin]

From a viewpoint:

The bible never changes it's story. Maybe it doesn't have to.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by nephilimiyr
Why is it that atheists and or evolutionists always answers a question about our universe saying maybe it's because of this or maybe it's because of that, it could be this or it could be that. Whenever asked about the possibility of a creation they say absolutly not and when they ask a question to us who believe in a creation they demand absolute answers? And if we dare ever say maybe or that we don't know for sure they act like they just proved themselves right. These guys are real pieces of work! Maybe,possibly, and I don't know are their favorite words when discribing evolution!

LewisWildermouth

First off, it is Wildermuth and it is my name, please do not make fun of it.

Secondly, would you rather us lie to you so you can feel better? Does not being able to answer a question prove something is untrue?

What was God doing before He created the universe? When he spoke the universe into being what were his exact words? Were they a song? A poem? A mathematical equation? Or all three at once? What were Gods exact words to Jesus before Jesus came to Earth?

If you are honest the answer to the above is I don't know... We could sit around and speculate all day about it but we still do not know yet. Does that mean Christianity is untrue? According to your argument it does, but I do not believe so.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by nephilimiyr
Why is it that atheists and or evolutionists always answers a question about our universe saying maybe it's because of this or maybe it's because of that, it could be this or it could be that.

Duh, because I'm not a physicist.

Whenever asked about the possibility of a creation they say absolutly not and when they ask a question to us who believe in a creation they demand absolute answers?

Duh, because I'm an evolutionary biologist.

And if we dare ever say maybe or that we don't know for sure they act like they just proved themselves right. These guys are real pieces of work! Maybe,possibly, and I don't know are their favorite words when discribing evolution!

There are still many competing models and hypothesis about the origin of the universe. However, the same cannont be said for biology. Evolution is the only scientific explaination that fits all the data from biology. That is how we can be confident about how the diversity of life arose, yet still unsure about how the universe arose.