What scriptures support praying to the saints?

[whitetiger1]

Theres other gospels, and the gospel of "us" instead of the gospel of JesUS becomes apparent



Yes I am familiar being a former catholic how praying to the same is justified.

However, I gotta head out for a bit, its been a predicatable conversation.

Be true, I'd rather be considered as a reprobate, its all good

Sorry to hear that than rather follow Christ in His Church

 

[Whisper of Hope]

I am not interested in a discussion proclaiming myself as true, or anyone elses proclamations of themselves as true. Jesus Christ is true and He knows them that are His, even the apostles said "we preach not ourselves" but Christ the Lord. They also said they had no dominion over their faith but were helpers of their joy.

Not interested in the "lording over" over others.

Amen sister!

1 Corinthians 2:2 "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."

Galatians 6:14 "But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

In Christ Alone

In Christ alone will I glory
Though I could pride myself in battles won
For I’ve been blessed beyond measure
And by His strength alone I’ll overcome
Oh, I could stop and count successes like diamonds in my hands
But those trophies could not equal to the grace by which I stand

In Christ alone
I place my trust
And find my glory in the power of the cross
In every victory
Let it be said of me
My source of strength
My source of hope
Is Christ alone

In Christ alone do I glory
For only by His grace I am redeemed
For only His tender mercy
Could reach beyond my weakness to my need
And now I seek no greater honor in just to know Him more
And to count my gains but losses to the glory of my Lord

In Christ alone
I place my trust
And find my glory in the power of the cross
In every victory
Let it be said of me
My source of strength
My source of hope
Is Christ alone

 

[Incariol]

Litany of the Saints - YouTube

Feast of All Saints Day - Thrice Happy are ye, all ye Saints and elect of God (Beati Estis) - YouTube

 

[Incariol]

Litany of the Saints - YouTube

Feast of All Saints Day - Thrice Happy are ye, all ye Saints and elect of God (Beati Estis) - YouTube

 

[Fireinfolding]

Jesus says on earth (specifically)

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Jesus says on earth (specifically)

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Amen sister!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Amen sister!

Thank God for Jesus words or we'd have a phonebook of saints in heaven to call on without any idea they (in heaven) actually agreed with us (when it come to what ask). There is one on the internet.

When it comes to the things pertaining to God, they asked Jesus...

Luke 11:1 ...Lord, teach us to pray

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven...

Who should we adress? Well there you go... Our Father

Not Ben, Jerry and Lucy (in heaven) but our Father in heaven

Certainly not exclusive of agreeing with another when one does ask (ofcourse not) but he does specify to them from "what location"

Mat 18 :19 Again, I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree (((on earth))) as touching any thing that they shall ask it shall be (((done for them))) of my Father which is in heaven.

So theres nothing wrong with asking the brethren (((on earth)))

Jesus says to and Paul asks accordingly...

Thes 5:25 Brethren, ((pray for us))

He is obviously "praying" (which is asking) the brethren (((on earth))) ......to pray (The Father) in heaven in agreement with them/for them (for some real results) <--- please someone jump on this

John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

1John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Jesus also says this...

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask ((in my name)): and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Thank God for Jesus words or we'd have a phonebook of saints in heaven to call on without any idea they (in heaven) actually agreed with us (when it come to what ask). There is one on the internet.

When it comes to the things pertaining to God, they asked Jesus...

Luke 11:1 ...Lord, teach us to pray

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven...

Who should we adress? Well there you go... Our Father

Not Ben, Jerry and Lucy (in heaven) but our Father in heaven

Certainly not exclusive of agreeing with another when one does ask (ofcourse not) but he does specify to them from "what location"

Mat 18 :19 Again, I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree (((on earth))) as touching any thing that they shall ask it shall be (((done for them))) of my Father which is in heaven.

So theres nothing wrong with asking the brethren (((on earth)))

Jesus says to and Paul asks accordingly...

Thes 5:25 Brethren, ((pray for us))

He is obviously "praying" (which is asking) the brethren (((on earth))) ......to pray (The Father) in heaven in agreement with them/for them (for some real results) <--- please someone jump on this

John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

1John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Jesus also says this...

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask ((in my name)): and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Amen and Amen!

It is written in Scripture that we can come boldly to the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16) and that we have a Mediator between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). There is absolutely NO scriptural references which command us or exhort us to pray to anyone who is heaven other than to God.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Amen and Amen!

It is written in Scripture that we can come boldly to the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16) and that we have a Mediator between us and God, and that is Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). There is absolutely NO scriptural references which command us or exhort us to pray to anyone who is heaven other than to God.

You werent going to jump on the "results part" to help me out were ya?

 

[Whisper of Hope]

You werent going to jump on the "results part" to help me out were ya?

Who me? ....

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Let Gods words be my feeble excuse, because I have had other prots correct me and can be corrected by them, catholics also through whom I also have been corrected, and likewise have I been corrected by those of the EO and others, thats the body of Christ everywhere doing their job I can have ten thousand instructors in Christ, and I bless the Lord for the body of Christ "wherever" they are

Im not of the notion my puddle is the only true one to wade around in, I'll leave that to others who believes God only rains on them

Well said!

On Christ the solid Rock I stand. All other ground is sinking sand.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Who me? ....

Yeah this part, ask

He is obviously "praying" (which is asking) the brethren (((on earth))) ......to pray (The Father) in heaven in agreement with them/for them (for some real results) <--- please someone jump on this

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Have any links to that?

Apostle Creed - speaks to "communion of saints" - which as a concept is inclusive of intercessory prayer
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed

Didache - importance of Apostolic teachings and keeping them
CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Liturgy of Saint James - appeals to saints for prayer/praise, communion of saints and martyrs
CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Liturgy of St. James

Hermas - The Shepard - an angel gives intercession - support of the concept of hosts in Heaven interceding on our behalf. In addition this work is quoted by many Early Fathers (Irenaeus, , even treated by a few as scripture - but regardless of the content held in error - there would have to be an acceptance of intercession on the part of the Fathers to consider any of this work note worthy.
Chap 4
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III

St Clement - prayer alone joined by choir of saints in Heaven
CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)

Apocryphal Acts of John - probably mid second century
Google it and look at page 144
Interesting in that it represents a Gnostic view against giving reverence to Saints/icons ("dead picture of the dead"). Which means the Church is practicing veneration of Saints/icons which includes intercession if the Gnostics writer is going to bother poking fun at it here.

 

[Standing Up]

Originally Posted by DrBubbaLove

Relevant to this thread the earliest copies of liturgies we have contain a request for matyrs to pray for us, just as the Mass today includes a request for intercessory prayer from Saints. So while you can deny these practices are scriptural it cannot be denied the early Church was doing this and doing it with Apostolic approval.

​

Apostle Creed - speaks to "communion of saints" - which as a concept is inclusive of intercessory prayer
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed

Didache - importance of Apostolic teachings and keeping them
CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Liturgy of Saint James - appeals to saints for prayer/praise, communion of saints and martyrs
CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Liturgy of St. James

Hermas - The Shepard - an angel gives intercession - support of the concept of hosts in Heaven interceding on our behalf. In addition this work is quoted by many Early Fathers (Irenaeus, , even treated by a few as scripture - but regardless of the content held in error - there would have to be an acceptance of intercession on the part of the Fathers to consider any of this work note worthy.
Chap 4
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III

St Clement - prayer alone joined by choir of saints in Heaven
CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)

Apocryphal Acts of John - probably mid second century
Google it and look at page 144
Interesting in that it represents a Gnostic view against giving reverence to Saints/icons ("dead picture of the dead"). Which means the Church is practicing veneration of Saints/icons which includes intercession if the Gnostics writer is going to bother poking fun at it here.

I'll take a closer look, but do you have anything whereby they prayed to the first two perfect martyres James son of Zebedee or Stephen? Barring that, it's sorta a fuzzy concept that developed over time, fully apart from apostles. That is to say, OF bishops, not FROM apostles.

 

[Standing Up]

Hermas - The Shepard - an angel gives intercession - support of the concept of hosts in Heaven interceding on our behalf. In addition this work is quoted by many Early Fathers (Irenaeus, , even treated by a few as scripture - but regardless of the content held in error - there would have to be an acceptance of intercession on the part of the Fathers to consider any of this work note worthy.
Chap 4
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III

Could you clarify the quote? Not seeing it.

You know Hermas is a witness against the later tradition of the unique NT office of priest, don't you?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hermas - The Shepard - an angel gives intercession - support of the concept of hosts in Heaven interceding on our behalf. In addition this work is quoted by many Early Fathers (Irenaeus, , even treated by a few as scripture - but regardless of the content held in error - there would have to be an acceptance of intercession on the part of the Fathers to consider any of this work note worthy.
Chap 4
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III

Could you clarify the quote? Not seeing it.

You know Hermas is a witness against the later tradition of the unique NT office of priest, don't you?

Yes, which is why I mentioned content held in error. We have people speaking out in defense of the offices of the Church. Interestingly we have NO ONE, repeat NO ONE speaking out against INTERCESSION of those in Heaven. Yet we have early Fathers quoting this work - shows there was awareness of the work.

Follow the link - page down - read Chapter 4 it is not long - mentions intercession - not as a teaching point or explanation or defense of that process - which means the writer assumes the reader is familiar with there being something called intercession not just from praying for each other but also from asking those in Heaven - and it is shown in contrast with just asking the Lord directly.

 

[Standing Up]

Yes, which is why I mentioned content held in error. We have people speaking out in defense of the offices of the Church. Interestingly we have NO ONE, repeat NO ONE speaking out against INTERCESSION of those in Heaven. Yet we have early Fathers quoting this work - shows there was awareness of the work.

Follow the link - page down - read Chapter 4 it is not long - mentions intercession - not as a teaching point or explanation or defense of that process - which means the writer assumes the reader is familiar with there being something called intercession not just from praying for each other but also from asking those in Heaven - and it is shown in contrast with just asking the Lord directly.

If you read it, you'll find the Angel telling him to go directly to the Lord for understanding and not use an intermediary.

" But you, having been strengthened by the holy Angel, and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him? I said to him, Sir, having you with me, I am necessitated to ask questions of you, for you show me all things, and converse with me; but if I were to see or hear these things without you, I would then ask the Lord to explain them. "

Remember the context of Christianity---the veil is torn, one may go directly to the Lord/God now. In pagan or OT, there were intermediaries. Not so Christianity.

So, Hermas fails miserably and is in truth a witness against intercession of "angels"/"whatever".

I'll look at your other stuff as well.

 

[Standing Up]

Apostle Creed - speaks to "communion of saints" - which as a concept is inclusive of intercessory prayer
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed

Didache - importance of Apostolic teachings and keeping them
CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

Pure speculation. Besides, keep in mind that the Church excommunicated and declared heretical those who observed the 14th Nisan as Jesus' death. That would be the apostles, Mary, and others. You don't really want to go there.

Liturgy of Saint James - appeals to saints for prayer/praise, communion of saints and martyrs
CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Liturgy of St. James

Hermas - The Shepard - an angel gives intercession - support of the concept of hosts in Heaven interceding on our behalf. In addition this work is quoted by many Early Fathers (Irenaeus, , even treated by a few as scripture - but regardless of the content held in error - there would have to be an acceptance of intercession on the part of the Fathers to consider any of this work note worthy.
Chap 4
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III

St Clement - prayer alone joined by choir of saints in Heaven
CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)

Apocryphal Acts of John - probably mid second century
Google it and look at page 144
Interesting in that it represents a Gnostic view against giving reverence to Saints/icons ("dead picture of the dead"). Which means the Church is practicing veneration of Saints/icons which includes intercession if the Gnostics writer is going to bother poking fun at it here.

Hermas rejected.

Clement is too long. Which chapter has the "evidence"?

We're using apocryphal things to support Christian practices? We may as well speak to the witches of Endor.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

We're using apocryphal things to support Christian practices? We may as well speak to the witches of Endor.

Agreed.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Pure speculation. Besides, keep in mind that the Church excommunicated and declared heretical those who observed the 14th Nisan as Jesus' death. That would be the apostles, Mary, and others. You don't really want to go there.

Will go where ever the Church leads me as I found that much more reliable than relying on myself.

Hermas rejected.

Clement is too long. Which chapter has the "evidence"?

We're using apocryphal things to support Christian practices? We may as well speak to the witches of Endor.

Ah, that took me a lot of time reading, least you could was read it.

You missed the point. If the witches of Endor wrote something that was teasing/making fun the early Church about veneration of Saints/Icons (which goes hand in hand with the asking them to pray for us) - then we can accept the early Church did that. Does not mean one has to believe or speak to witches - does require thinking however.

The Gnostics cannot be dissin the early Church for something they did not think the early Church was doing. And since they were opposed to the orthodox teachings, the fact they are recorded doing this supports that it was an accepted practice.