What scriptures support praying to the saints?

[Standing Up]

So nothing on the first incidence from NT Christianity? Anyone? Who and when was the first deceased invoked?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Tradition is full of confusion and opinion. Just between EO and RC alone there are numerous doctrinal contradictions over the centuries.

To the OP, the idea of praying to the saints came out from one reference in the deteros apparently. But when the apostles had two perfect examples in James son of Zebedee and Stephen, we don't read them suggesting it. Jesus said, agreement on earth.

But, I'd still like to know which saint was first prayed to? Did they invoke Mary or Peter or Paul or Stephen or who? Was it in 150, 250, 350, 450, or when? Who first started praying to Mary and when?

Do we know who was the first to be Baptized by an Apostle?
Do we know the first Gentile to be Baptized?
Do we know the first person who suggested Father, Son and Spirit are One in Being?

Would knowing these things matter in our belief that these things happened or are so?
It does not to me, obviously it does to you.
As we do not know the first person ever to pray for someone else, are we to suggest no one should do that?
Praying for someone else is second nature for a Christian. The question aught to be why would it NOT be part of the nature of a Christian in Heaven, a Saint?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So nothing on the first incidence from NT Christianity? Anyone? Who and when was the first deceased invoked?

Well we would know it would be a martyr from the liturgy in use by the Church, but am certain that is not enough for some here that it was in fact done.

 

[Thekla]

So nothing on the first incidence from NT Christianity? Anyone? Who and when was the first deceased invoked?

I think you missed my post to you; it's prior to this post.

 

[Standing Up]

I think you missed my post to you; it's prior to this post.

Not seeing it. I'm looking for the first example of NT Christianity. Was the first prayer to Peter, Paul, Mary, or who? When?

 

[Thekla]

Not seeing it. I'm looking for the first example of NT Christianity. Was the first prayer to Peter, Paul, Mary, or who? When?

How would you expect that a natural continuity would be explicitly recorded ???

 

[jackmt]

Why would it matter if he was 17? I knew a 17 year old who had read the entire Ante-Nicene Fathers series by Philip Schaff and understood them too. She knew what she was talking about.

I was referring to the immaturity of the responses and the lack of intellectual content. I also suspect "he" is really a she; there is something very feminine in the writing.

 

[Standing Up]

How would you expect that a natural continuity could be explicitly recorded ???

I'm just asking for the frist NT Christian historic reference is all. When and to whom? Was it to Mary, Peter, Paul?

Maybe the sub tuum?

Anyone else?

 

[Incariol]

I was referring to the immaturity of the responses and the lack of intellectual content. I also suspect "he" is really a she; there is something very feminine in the writing.

 

[Thekla]

I'm just asking for the frist NT Christian historic reference is all. When and to whom? Was it to Mary, Peter, Paul?

Maybe the sub tuum?

Anyone else?

Maybe.

We don't have exhaustive information, and we are also dealing with a different cultural standard (we live in a literate era).

 

[Whisper of Hope]

I was referring to the immaturity of the responses and the lack of intellectual content. I also suspect "he" is really a she; there is something very feminine in the writing.

I agree with your assumptions here. I have thought this for some time now. Unfortunately, this member in question isn't the only one who behaves like that in this thread and others similar to it (for example). Whatever we do, whether in word or in deed, we are to do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him (Colossians 3:17). There is nothing wrong with coming to reason together, but it should be done in love, as the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13. Even if we speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, we have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. The apostle Paul continues to say that even if we have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though we have all faith, so that we could remove mountains, but have not love, we are nothing (1 Corinthians 13:1-5).

We must remember that as Christians we represent Jesus Christ to the world. We are His witnesses (Acts 1:8) and His ambassadors (2 Corinthians 5:20). We have a responsibility to represent Him and spread the Gospel (Matthew 28:18-20). We are His hands, His feet, and we are His voice to this lost and dying world. It really matters how we, as Christians, conduct ourselves before the unsaved. As Christians, our behavior toward one another could hold eternal consequences for someone who has yet to come to Christ. We should not take so lightly that we represent the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, our Savior and Lord. It should always be on our mind of how we represent Him. We represent the King of kings and the Lord of lords, the Son of God.

We are commanded to tame our tongue (James 3:8), so that we do not bless God out of one side of our mouth and curse men with the other (James 3:10). Our Lord Jesus said that from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks (Matthew 12:34; Luke 6:45). He also said that by our words we could be acquitted or condemned (Matthew 12:37), and we will have to give an account for every idle word we speak (Matthew 12:36). King David asks God to set a guard over his mouth, and keep watch over the door of his lips (Psalm 141:3). I think that should be our prayer to God, as well. The Word of God tells us that our tongue has the power of life and death (Proverbs 18:21), and that our words could be a blessing or a curse (James 3:10). We must be careful with our words and remember we represent the Lord Jesus Christ to the lost and dying world. And we should all remember that any of us could possibly be the only example of Jesus that an unsaved person encounters. Will that unsaved person see Jesus in us if we bite and devour each other (Galatians 5:14-15)?

 

[jackmt]

Yeah, that's just the sort of intellectual response and maturity level I was looking for here.

 

[jackmt]

Catholics are such liars. They will twist the Scriptures quicker than Obama will pervert the Constitution.

No one asks their friends on earth for prayer by saying Hail Sam, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou amongst men, pray for me now and at the hour of my death--holy sam, father of God, pray for us sinners, O most immaculate heart, O king of heaven, O bestower of mercies and compassions.

But that is how they "pray to"--which means to petition the way a creature does to a deity--that's how these Biblically illiterate and Biblically rebellious idolaters WORSHIP "sainsts" who can't hear them anyway. Mary has never heard a prayer nor has she answered a prayer from heaven. She can't. Catholicism is blasphemy

Their saints, save Mary, are demigods. Mary, Mother of God, has achieved full divinity status: she is Queen of Heaven in the Father's Kingdom.:o

 

[Chany]

There saints, save Mary, are demigods. Mary, Mother of God, has achieved full divinity status: she is Queen of Heaven in the Father's Kingdom.:o

The saints are people in heaven that we ask for their God-allowed intercessions and prayers. They are not gods, even if some "Catholics" treat them as such.

James 5:16 - "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

Who is more righteous then those already in God's kingdom?

Mary is not on the same level as God. She still prays for us like the saints. However, because of her status as the mother of Christ, she is special to us. A defense of the Hail Mary appears below:

The Hail Mary - Catholic Bible 101

Although you are against Catholic sources, please look past the Catholic bias and see the heart of the matter: that the Hail Mary is a prayer of condensed Bible passages.

You can disagree with our logic, but do not call us liars or blasphemers.

 

[jackmt]

When you say that Mary was immaculately conceived, that she was sinless, that she was assumed bodily into heaven, that she is co-mediatrix with Christ, that she receives prayers, adoration, honors, etc., etc., all due to God alone, you make her equal to Christ. This is blasphemy.

Only the first part of the "Hail Mary" is Scriptural. But it was merely the angel Gabriel's salutation to her at the annunciation.

 

[Fireinfolding]

When you say that Mary was immaculately conceived, that she was sinless, that she was assumed bodily into heaven, that she is co-mediatrix with Christ, that she receives prayers, adoration, honors, etc., etc., all due to God alone, you make her equal to Christ. This is blasphemy.

Only the first part of the "Hail Mary" is Scriptural. But it was merely the angel Gabriel's salutation to her at the annunciation.

Hail chairō

1) to rejoice, be glad
2) to rejoice exceedingly
3) to be well, thrive
4) in salutations, hail!
5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute

rejoice 42, be glad 14, joy 5, hail 5, greeting 3, God speed 2, all hail 1, joyfully 1, farewell 1

 

[Incariol]

Oh God, so much to address here.

Catholics are such liars.

Ok, this is blatantly ridiculous. This is on the same level as statements such as: "Blacks are such criminals", "Women are all bad at math and science", "Muslims are so violent", and just as offensive.

They will twist the Scriptures quicker

And that is why denominations exist. For the point of discussion, you don't get to define objective truth and proclaim who is and who is not a liar in Christendom. Well, you can, you just won't be taken seriously.

than Obama will pervert the Constitution.

Cute political aside. I don't believe he does.

No one asks their friends on earth for prayer by saying Hail Sam, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou amongst men, pray for me now and at the hour of my death--holy sam, father of God, pray for us sinners, O most immaculate heart, O king of heaven, O bestower of mercies and compassions.

Really? How do you know I don't? It is mostly accurate except for the second half which is mostly epithets applying specifically to Mary.

But that is how they "pray to"--which means to petition the way a creature does to a deity--

Time for you to look up "pray" in the dictionary again. You got it wrong.

that's how these Biblically illiterate and Biblically rebellious idolaters

Oh look internet flaming, how cool of you. We're all impressed.

WORSHIP "sainsts"

1. Catholics only worship God.
2. What are these "sainsts"? I've never heard of sainsts before.

who can't hear them anyway.

I'm willing to taking your word on this, since I've never heard of sainsts before.

Mary has never heard a prayer nor has she answered a prayer from heaven. She can't.

Why not? You see, in discussions, usually you throw out more than harsh ultimatums about other people and actually provide things like reasoning and stuff...

Catholicism is blasphemy

I remember I thought and said things that were remarkably the same when I was in junior high and high school too.

 

[Incariol]

Their saints, save Mary, are demigods. Mary, Mother of God, has achieved full divinity status: she is Queen of Heaven in the Father's Kingdom.:o

I find it hard to believe that you were admitted to a Catholic seminary with such a basic misunderstanding of RC Mariology. You do understand this is all nonsense from a Jack Chick tract and not anything remotely like what the RCC actually believes?

 

[Incariol]

Yeah, that's just the sort of intellectual response and maturity level I was looking for here.

Likewise. I figured when I see a post calling out supposed "immaturity in responses" and in the next sentence speculation that so-and-so is really a "she" based on something "feminine in the writing", that doesn't deserve much.

 

[Incariol]

Hail chairō

1) to rejoice, be glad
2) to rejoice exceedingly
3) to be well, thrive
4) in salutations, hail!
5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute

rejoice 42, be glad 14, joy 5, hail 5, greeting 3, God speed 2, all hail 1, joyfully 1, farewell 1

Rejoice!

O Virgin Pure-Orthodox Byantine Chant - YouTube

Refrain: O Rejoice Bride unwedded.
O Virgin pure, immaculate, O Lady Theotokos. (Refrain)
O fleece bedewed with every grace. O Virgin Queen and Mother.(Refrain)
More radiant that the rays of the sun, and higher than the heavens. (Refrain)
O joy of virgin choruses, superior to the angels. (Refrain)
O brighter than the firmament and purer that the sun's light. (Refrain)
More holy than the multitude of all the heavenly armies. (Refrain)



O ever virgin Mary of all the world, the Lady.(Refrain)
O Bride all pure immaculate, O Lady Panagia. (Refrain)
O Mary Bride and Queen of all, the cause of our rejoicing. (Refrain)
O noble Maiden, gracious Queen,
supremely holy Mother. (Refrain)
More honored than the Cherubim,
beyond compare more glorious(Refrain)
Than the unbodied Seraphim, transcending the angelic Thrones. (Refrain)

Rejoice, the song of Cherubim rejoice,
the hymn of angels
Rejoice the ode of Seraphim; the joy of the archangels.
Rejoice, O peace and happiness and cause of our rejoicing.
O sacred chamber of the Word, the flower of incorruption.
Rejoice, delightful Paradise of blessed life eternal.
Rejoice O sacred Tree of life and fount of immortality.

I supplicate you, Lady now, I fervently entreat you.
O Queen of all, I earnestly implore and seek your favor.
O gracious Maiden, spotless one, O Lady Panagia.
I call upon you ardently , O holy hallowed Temple.
O help me and deliver me protect me rom the enemy.
And make me an inheritor of blessed life eternal.