What science says about homosexuality

[Veyrlian]

People can and do argue endlessly about what is harmful and what is helpful. There are laws on the books shielding corporate officers from culpability if they break certain laws so long as the company makes money, because their fiduciary obligation to the corporate shareholders is seen to outweigh their duty as citizens to obey the law.

Ultimately, we have a system for deciding who is right and who is wrong about such things. If laws are passed through the democratic process, I have no real qualms. My main objection to gay marriage is the use of the civil rights argument to push it through the courts.

How are civil rights NOT relevant? Are you implying that gay people shouldn't have rights or that they should have just those that are not civil?

It creates an irreconcilable difference between the state and the church. It is essentially the death knell of the separation of church and state.

Do you mean that the church and the state will become more separated? Or that they will combine as the result of this?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Hey guys I made this post in another forum but I guess I'll make it here (made this account to say this). But I'm a gay Christian and I just want to say that I love you all! It's really great being free like this and I love my boyfriend and we're really happy, so I want to thank you all for supporting us and gay rights. I've had a lot of help from Christians to overcome those other Christians who are anti-gay (we all know who they are really working for).

Thank you so much!

John

Is it wrong to be "anti-gay" with the entire New Testament witness supporting that view?

Starting with this:

“Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh.

Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

- Jesus

Paul:

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

///////

Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.


In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Etc., etc..

So why is the Christian position that same-gender sexual behavior is incompatible with a Christian life seen as the bad position? Especially on the subject of marriage.

 

[Veyrlian]

Is it wrong to be "anti-gay" with the entire New Testament witness supporting that view?

Starting with this:

Paul:

Etc., etc..

So why is the Christian position that same-gender sexual behavior is incompatible with a Christian life seen as the bad position? Especially on the subject of marriage.

Apparently there are churches who happily marry same-gender couples. The NT seems to be open to interpretation on this issue. As on many other issues.

Marriage is not a Christian subject anyway. You have no exclusive claims to it.

Probably the most off-putting thing about this particular Christian position is, that it seems to be incongruous with the gospel of love thy neighbour, and hypocritical regarding who should follow the rules and which rules should be followed.

Of course you are free to follow any kind of doctrines you wish, just as other people are free to criticize them. But you are not allowed to force your beliefs on anyone else.

 

[LightHorseman]

Originally Posted by Shane Roach

The repeated assertion that open homosexuality doesn't cause harm is merely an assumption. There is a good bit of historical evidence that such behavior represents a breakdown in a culture, or is at least symptomatic.​

He keeps saying this, but for some reason he gets upset when you ask him to actually show the evidence he claims there is a "good bit" of.
​

 

[LightHorseman]

Well, my favorite sex act is one that is commonly shared between two women. Even though I am not a woman, does my preference for this act identify me as lesbian?

I've LONG claimed to be a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Apparently there are churches who happily marry same-gender couples. The NT seems to be open to interpretation on this issue. As on many other issues.

The Apostles (and of course Jesus) saw this coming. From Paul to a young greek man (eh-hem) and the Christian community in Greek/Roman world and worldview:

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

And of course the time echoing words of Jude to Christians dealing with the same issues as we are now:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.

They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Marriage is not a Christian subject anyway. You have no exclusive claims to it.

True. And it looks like many of us don't handle it well too. But the scriptures are not at fault.

Probably the most off-putting thing about this particular Christian position is, that it seems to be incongruous with the gospel of love thy neighbour, and hypocritical regarding who should follow the rules and which rules should be followed.

It is not loving your neighbor to celebrate their sin and to encourage them to sin. Jesus spoke about that.

Of course you are free to follow any kind of doctrines you wish, just as other people are free to criticize them. But you are not allowed to force your beliefs on anyone else.

But it seems the law that Christians (who are just citizens with civil rights too) cannot criticize other peoples doctrines and are not allowed to oppose other people demanding that we follow their belifs. I believe it's called hate crimes legislation is it not?

 

[IzzyPop]

But it seems the law that Christians (who are just citizens with civil rights too) cannot criticize other peoples doctrines and are not allowed to oppose other people demanding that we follow their belifs. I believe it's called hate crimes legislation is it not?

It is not.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

But it seems the law that Christians (who are just citizens with civil rights too) cannot criticize other peoples doctrines and are not allowed to oppose other people demanding that we follow their belifs. I believe it's called hate crimes legislation is it not?
​

It is not.

Really? I'll send my kids to school with a Biblical take on homosexuality, descriptive words and all. We'll see how they do. Of course, I can't do that at work, because I'll get fired for breaking the law.

 

[quatona]

Really? I'll send my kids to school with a Biblical take on homosexuality, descriptive words and all. We'll see how they do. Of course, I can't do that at work, because I'll get fired for breaking the law.

Boy, are you persecuted!

 

[LightHorseman]

Really? I'll send my kids to school with a Biblical take on homosexuality, descriptive words and all. We'll see how they do. Of course, I can't do that at work, because I'll get fired for breaking the law.

Seems sort of an unusual thing to want to do in the first place... why so all fired up to go about Bible bashing homosexuals ANYWAY?

What ever happened to "live and let live"? Because to me, it looks like you're actually going out of your way to find trouble.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

Really? I'll send my kids to school with a Biblical take on homosexuality, descriptive words and all. We'll see how they do. Of course, I can't do that at work, because I'll get fired for breaking the law.
​

Boy, are you persecuted!

I notice you couldn't find fault with what I wrote.

And it is a far cry from persecution the discrimination we Christians in America are facing. We'll make it through this period in history just fine.

 

[LightHorseman]

I mean... shouldn't you be concentrating on work at work, and your kids on school at school, and saving the proseletysing for your weekends?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Seems sort of an unusual thing to want to do in the first place... why so all fired up to go about Bible bashing homosexuals ANYWAY?

I've never Bible-bashed anyone in my life. Every scripture I present here is sensible and ethical to the subject matter being discussed. I wish that Christians would have never said a word about homosexuality outside the Church. Why care what pagans do?

What ever happened to "live and let live"?

That ended when humanists, atheists, and GLBT's started recruiting youth advocates and membership in the public schools to join their belief systems. Why can't they just "live and let live?"

Because to me, it looks like you're actually going out of your way to find trouble.

That is the way you would see it. The way I see it, is that trouble came looking for us. They found us and we are now taking action.

 

[Andreusz]

Nobody is recruiting. We are simply asserting the right to hold our beliefs and to experience our feelings.

 

[LightHorseman]

I've never Bible-bashed anyone in my life. Every scripture I present here is sensible and ethical to the subject matter being discussed. I wish that Christians would have never said a word about homosexuality outside the Church. Why care what pagans do?

Quite so. So... why are you bemoaning the lack of opportunity to do exactly that?

That ended when humanists, atheists, and GLBT's started recruiting youth advocates and membership in the public schools to join their belief systems. Why can't they just "live and let live?"

Whatever.

That is the way you would see it. The way I see it, is that trouble came looking for us. They found us and we are now taking action.

I'd forgotten how you don't base your opinions on actual evidence during your "holiday".

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Can we go back to the OP?

What science says about homosexuality

Hello, I would like to discuss homosexuality. Before I do so I would like to state that I understand this is a controversial topic and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I mean no disrespect towards anyone.

That being said I do not understand how people deny homosexuality as being scientifically proven to not be a "lifestyle choice". What proof do you need?

You mean besides the over 15 years of scientific studies that included brain scans (CT and MRI) that showed the brain of a gay person was actually structurally and functionally more like that of the opposite sex than their own?

In 1991, brain scientist Simon LeVay . . .

Levay (a gay activist), was thoroughly discredited in his work about being born gay. It is easy to look that up on the internet.

Also, science has shown us, that the digestive tract from mouth to anus is not part of the sexual functions of the human anatomy.

Science, once again, shows us that homosexuality is a rare condition and is always an aberrant one where it is exhibited in a species.

So can we at least dispense with calling anti-gay positions as ignorant, hateful, bigoted and phobic? I mean, even darwinism (which is a popular scientific perspective) is not supportive of "gay rights." Gruelingly and mercilessly so even.

 

[quatona]

I notice you couldn't find fault with what I wrote.

No, I couldn´t find fault with the first sentence. If I indoctrinate my children with discrimnating ideas and send them to school they aren´t likely to do well. That´s alright with me.

The meaning of the second sentence escaped me completely, because the "that" in "I can´t do that at work" doesn´t seem to refer to any meaningful verb (grammatically it seems to refer to "send kids to school", which wouldn´t make any sense). So if you feel what you meant to say was important you may want to explain what exactly you would like to do at work but can´t because you´ll get fired for it.

 

[LightHorseman]

Also, science has shown us, that the digestive tract from mouth to anus is not part of the sexual functions of the human anatomy.

Um... that isn't remotely true at all.

Google "p spot", and go from there. (assuming that PC-F has never had, nor ever wants, to recieve the sort of job that euphemistically includes the word "blow" in its common name)

 

[IzzyPop]

Really? I'll send my kids to school with a Biblical take on homosexuality, descriptive words and all. We'll see how they do. Of course, I can't do that at work, because I'll get fired for breaking the law.

No you won't. You will not be breaking any law. You may well get fired for creating a hostile work environment, but that is not breaking the law.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Nobody is recruiting. We are simply asserting the right to hold our beliefs and to experience our feelings.

Reality says otherwise. infidels.org and the skeptic web came straight out of the activities in the public school system. GLSEN and GLAAD are in our schools hard core for recruits. I'm not saying just looking for kids to support in engaging in homosexuality, but the Day of Silence and other gay activities are looking for converts. Christians are asked to shutup.

I even remember the good ol' "cognitive dissonance" days where atheists thought they were on to something. I'm digging that it's the secularists having all they headaches from questioning these days. Michael Behe has started a revolution that isn't slowing down.