What saves a person?

Jason0047 said:

You need to first answer my question on which sins you commit that you think are okay with God. I answered your question, it is only fair you answer my question now.

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You cannot commit any sin whatsoever.

Jason0047 said:

You need to first answer my question on which sins you commit that you think are okay with God. I answered your question, it is only fair you answer my question now.

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It's the same question. Why don't you answer first?

Now your question was not directed at me, but I will answer anyway: I don't think that any sin that I commit is okay with God. However because I am saved, all of my sins are forgiven, under the blood.

klutedavid said:

Well Jason, I have never met a Christian who has successfully mortified the flesh. All I ever meet are sinners in need of grace.

Have you become perfect or not?

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Perfection is not a salvation issue. As I said to you before, not all sins are the same. Minor faults or transgressions is not the same as grievous sins. Surely you do not regard going over the speed limit by 5 mph (with a motor vehicle) as the same as murder, and I am sure God does not think that way, either.

Again, if you want me to answer your question, it would be nice if you answered mine.

klutedavid said:

You cannot commit any sin whatsoever.

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So you cannot sin and still be saved? This means that holiness on some level does play a part of the salvation process. If not, then a person can believe in Jesus and also be axe murdering rapist and be saved.

Jason0047 said:

If Eternal Security was true, I would go back to my old life of sin. Everyone would eventually do that because there is no incentive to live right for God if you can just simply sin and still be saved. A person can choose a sin they really liked from their old life and still hold on to that one sin and rationalize it as being okay because Jesus paid for it. However, it is the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil.

"...and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6).

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By mercy and truth sin is atoned for.

The fear of the Lord's discipline and chastening is enough for most of us to keep from going over the edge into any kind of sin that might cause us to lose our salvation (see Hebrews 12:5-11).

justbyfaith said:

By mercy and truth sin is atoned for.

The fear of the Lord's discipline and chastening is enough for most of us to keep from going over the edge into any kind of sin that might cause us to lose our salvation (see Hebrews 12:5-11).

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Chastening is for those believers who actually believe in doing what is right as a necessity of the faith and salvation. There is no fear in chastening because even unbelievers can go through hardships in life. Faithful believers can also be persecuted and even die even when walking in the Lord's good ways. Chastening is correction to get someone to stop sinning. Sort of like how a master may lightly smack a dog and yell at him for pooping on the carpet. The goal is to get the animal to stop. But if the dog had an uncontrollable pooping problem, and the master knew that fact and he just smacked and yelled at the dog for pooping anyways, then the master is being cruel. The dog does not have the capacity to obey. It will release gushing poop uncontrollably. It cannot help itself. It is a sick animal. Some folks act like they are like this sick animal. So how does chastening work for them?

justbyfaith said:

By mercy and truth sin is atoned for.

The fear of the Lord's discipline and chastening is enough for most of us to keep from going over the edge into any kind of sin that might cause us to lose our salvation (see Hebrews 12:5-11).

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Actually Proverbs 16:6 says the fear of the Lord men depart from evil. Do you just like ignore that verse?

Jason0047 said:

So you cannot sin and still be saved? This means that holiness on some level does play a part of the salvation process. If not, then a person can believe in Jesus and also be axe murdering rapist and be saved.

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Your confused over receiving the gift of salvation and your responsibility as a Christian. We are all required to be holy, because without holiness we won't see God. But holiness is not a condition of salvation, it is the work of the Holy Spirit within us.

The reason your saved is purely because you believe in Jesus. Your salvation is not a consequence of how holy you are.

As we read posts on this thread, we see misunderstanding by how Biblical terms/verses are being misapplied. Certain terms are referred to one way and then another way that is out of context with the meaning of the verse and the thought they are trying to express.

Because a house divided cannot stand, perhaps we can take a step toward restoring sound doctrine and bring us back to a unity of faith so that the kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.

Because our understanding may be in error or less than complete, we prequalify the following comments with, “We understand or believe that:”

)Each point mentioned can be explained with scripture. In addition, Bible prophecy further helps us to understand what has been happening and where we are in time.
)We are divided by denominations because the church did not endure sound doctrine.
)At Pentecost, a transition began from all being dead in sin as descendants of the first Adam to all being made alive in Christ.
)Descendants of Israel were born holy by the Holy Spirit of God being in them, whereas "Gentiles" did not have the Spirit of Christ and were without God in the world.
)Water baptism is a testimony of faith and act of obedience for the forgiveness of sins, and is not the same as being baptized with the Spirit INTO Christ Jesus.
)Being baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ was how a believer was justified, born of the Spirit and saved from death as a member IN Christ.
)Descendants of believers born again of the Spirit of Jesus Christ received the Spirit from their parents at conception and were born holy, even as descendants of Israel and his sons received the Spirit from their parents to be members of the holy nation of Israel.

Scenario 1
1) Elect Gentiles that repented and believed were reconciled to God and made alive WITH Christ by receiving the Spirit of adoption when they were forgiven of all trespasses by repenting and confessing their sins.
2) Gentiles were conformed to the likeness of His death to be baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ INTO His death, wherein they were risen from the dead in the resurrection together with the Spirit of Christ, grafted into Christ as a son of Israel and a new creation IN Christ. They were raised incorruptible in having Eternal Life by being one with GOD and the Son.
3) They went on to perfection when sanctified completely to be a King or Priest in the resurrection with Christ by being anointed with the Holy Spirit of God. This is when they were “changed” in a blink of an eye to “put on immortality.”

Scenario 2
1) Descendants of Israel as members of the good olive tree were born holy. Just because they were born holy did not mean they lived a righteous lifestyle. Those who lived in the world as prodigals were dead in their trespasses and sins until they repented and believed in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins to be reconciled to God by being quickened together with the Holy Spirit within them.
2) Their heart was circumcised of the flesh by the Spirit until they became doers of righteousness, when they were born again as a new creation in Christ Jesus by being baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ into His death, wherein they were raised from the dead with Christ.
3) They continued to grow in wisdom, grace, and the fruit of the Spirit was enhanced in their life as they were conformed to the image of Jesus Christ to put in immortality when sanctified completely by being anointed with the Holy Spirit of God.

Scenario 3
1) Children conceived by parents having the Spirit of Jesus Christ were born holy by having the Spirit of Jesus Christ within them. They were raised incorruptible in having Eternal life by being born with the Spirit of the Son in them. If they were “dead” in trespasses and sins, they were born of the Spirit and saved as a child of God when they turned from sin to practice righteousness by repenting and confessing their sins, as they trusted in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
2) They overcame the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life as Christ was formed in them. They were anointed with the Holy Spirit of God as a son and heir of God in the Kingdom of God with their name secured in the book of life to go out no more.

With give thanks to God our Father in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ

klutedavid said:

Your confused over receiving the gift of salvation and your responsibility as a Christian. We are all required to be holy, because without holiness we won't see God. But holiness is not a condition of salvation, it is the work of the Holy Spirit within us.

The reason your saved is purely because you believe in Jesus. Your salvation is not a consequence of how holy you are.

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No. God does not over ride our free will. He never has and never will do that. If such were the case, then God would force everyone to be saved if He was in the "Forced Salvation" business.

Scripture says you have to endure to the end to be saved.
Scripture says you have to KEEP yourself in the love of God.

So it is synergistic. It's a walk with God and not some kind of take over (Whereby we cannot help but to obey). In fact, nobody here actually believes that, either. Nobody here is boasting in how they live holy by the Spirit, but they appear to be defending how they are just or saved by Christ's sacrifice alone no matter what their life looks like. They get defensive and personal and say things like: Do you still sin?

Jason0047 said:

Perfection is not a salvation issue. As I said to you before, not all sins are the same. Minor faults or transgressions is not the same as grievous sins. Surely you do not regards going over the speed limit by 5 mph as the same as murder, and I am sure God does not think that way, either.

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Jason0047 said:

So you cannot sin and still be saved? This means that holiness on some level does play a part of the salvation process. If not, then a person can believe in Jesus and also be axe murdering rapist and be saved.

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If you look at the two posts above very carefully, you will see a contradiction in thinking.

@Jason0047, what do you believe exactly? Are minor sins the same as being an axe-murdering rapist or not?

If they are not the same, then it seems to me that minor sins are excused as far as you are concerned. So if you commit minor sins you can sin and still be saved. It would only be major sins that would remove your salvation from you.

So, then minor sins are not really sins and do not need to be forgiven.

Otherwise (and this is my point of view): even minor sins will put a man in hell if they are not forgiven. if we break even one part of the law we are guilty of breaking all of it. Nothing short of sinless perfection will earn your entrance into heaven if you are going to try to enter in by your works/obedience (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48, Matthew 5:18, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20).

klutedavid said:

Your confused over receiving the gift of salvation and your responsibility as a Christian. We are all required to be holy, because without holiness we won't see God. But holiness is not a condition of salvation, it is the work of the Holy Spirit within us.

The reason your saved is purely because you believe in Jesus. Your salvation is not a consequence of how holy you are.

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I perfectly understand that we have to FIRST receive Christ for salvation by faith and trust in His death and resurrection (I did that many years ago). Without doing that, nobody can be saved. But after we are saved, we are called unto holiness and not uncleanness.

justbyfaith said:

If you look at the two posts above very carefully, you will see a contradiction in thinking.

@Jason0047, what do you believe exactly? Are minor sins the same as being an axe-murdering rapist or not?

If they are not the same, then it seems to me that minor sins are excused as far as you are concerned. So if you commit minor sins you can sin and still be saved. It would only be major sins that would remove your salvation from you.

So, then minor sins are not really sins and do not need to be forgiven.

Otherwise (and this is my point of view): even minor sins will put a man in hell if they are not forgiven. if we break even one part of the law we are guilty of breaking all of it. Nothing short of sinless perfection will earn your entrance into heaven if you are going to try to enter in by your works/obedience (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48, Matthew 5:18, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20).

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I didn't write the Bible. God did. If you don't like it, take it up with Him. The Bible says there is a sin that will not lead to death (See 1 John 5:17). We also know you cannot be forgiven if you speak bad words against the Holy Ghost (See Matthew 12:31-32). This is not the case with speaking bad words against the Son of Man (Jesus). 1 Peter 3:21 says baptism is not for salvation, too. So yes. There are minor transgressions or faults.

Even life teaches you that there are minor transgressions of faults vs. major serious sins that you would never do.

Jason0047 said:

It's a walk with God and not some kind of take over (Whereby we cannot help but to obey). In fact, nobody here actually believes that, either.

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Ezekiel 36:25-27 and Philippians 2:12-13. He causes us to walk in His statutes and His judgments. He works within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

Jason0047 said:

I didn't write the Bible. God did. If you don't like it, take it up with Him. The Bible says there is a sin that will not lead to death (See 1 John 5:17). We also know you cannot be forgiven if you speak bad words against the Holy Ghost (See Matthew 12:31-32). This is not the case with speaking bad words against the Son of Man (Jesus). 1 Peter 3:21 says baptism is not for salvation, too. So yes. There are minor transgressions or faults.

Even life teaches you that there are minor transgressions of faults vs. major serious sins that you would never do.

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A sin that is not unto death (a minor sin) must still be prayed about in order to be forgiven.

justbyfaith said:

Ezekiel 36:25-27

and Philippians 2:12-13. He causes us to walk in His statutes and His judgments. he works within us to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

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Again, this does not mean a spit of beans if the very gospel message you preach is one that can potentially lead others to think that they can sin and still be saved on some level. It is possible that saying to others that their future sin is forgiven them can create yet another George Sodini. Granted, I am sure you would not like that to happen, but it is possible.

This is the problem with your belief.

Side Note:

Also, why would they believe you in your talk about holiness if you say you are a justified sinner? Your words are not said in context of your past life alone. You did not say, "Justified Sinner (of my past old sins)." If you are not saying that, then people are going to assume you are sinning in the present.

Jason0047 said:

No. God does not over ride our free will. He never has and never will do that. If such were the case, then God would force everyone to be saved if He was in the "Forced Salvation" business.

Scripture says you have to endure to the end to be saved.
Scripture says you have to KEEP yourself in the love of God.

So it is synergistic. It's a walk with God and not some kind of take over (Whereby we cannot help but to obey). In fact, nobody here actually believes that, either. Nobody here is boasting in how they live holy by the Spirit, but they appear to be defending how they are just or saved by Christ's sacrifice alone no matter what their life looks like. They get defensive and personal and say things like: Do you still sin?

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Here we go.

There is no such thing as a free will. That is a philosophical idea, mankind is enslaved to their passions and desires. No one ever, ever, chooses to love others and especially to love at their own loss. Christians battle to love others and they constantly avoid the troublesome folk.

God does not force salvation on anyone by the way.

I constantly ask people why they keep sinning. I will not apologize for that, people need to show some personal integrity. You cannot tell others to do what you have not done yourself.

If you have continuous and repetitive sin in your life, you need to confess that. Not act as though only the perfect enter the kingdom of heaven.
Even the apostle Paul did not achieve perfection. You can have a near perfect faith, but a perfect love for others?

Anyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved!

justbyfaith said:

A sin that is not unto death (a minor sin) must still be prayed about in order to be forgiven.

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No. God's Word does not say that minor faults or flaws in character will send us to hell. If you don't take out the trash on time last week, or if you went a little over the speed limit, you are not going to hell for doing that. The Bible is clear on what sins can condemn us. Venturing outside of what the Bible says is to invent things that are not there.

Jason0047 said:

I perfectly understand that we have to FIRST receive Christ for salvation by faith and trust in His death and resurrection (I did that many years ago). Without doing that, nobody can be saved. But after we are saved, we are called unto holiness and not uncleanness.

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Yes, correct Jason.

A perfect love of others is not a condition, nor is a perfect holiness.

If you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And you confess His name, then you are saved!

What is salvation?
God forgives us of sins we have committed which relieves our conscience of guilt.
We are free from condemnation by the curse of the Law under grace for our faith.
We are delivered from sin in our life as we are cleansed of unrighteousness.
We are righteous and cannot commit sin when we are born of the Spirit of Christ.
We are saved from death and have eternal life when we are born of the Spirit of Christ.
We are seated at the right hand of God when we are born of God and in Christ.
We become sons of God and heirs of the Kingdom of God when we overcome the world.
We put on immortality when we are perfected by Christ being formed in us.