What really are Stars?

[Lulav]

Yes. Do you see the crater? The sun has a solid surface. This means the entire cosmology of the universe must be scrapped and redone from scratch. The sizes and distances of stars are all based on the assumption that our sun is an average star, made of hydrogen plasma, and powered by nuclear fusion(science fiction). These photos obviously destroy that assumption.

Yes, that is interesting.

Let me ask you a question, have you looked at the sun recently - with the naked eye? I know we're not supposed to and I try and avoid it but the other day while coming home from the store I was driving right into the sun. It was going down, about 1 1/2 hrs before sunset. When I saw it before putting down my visor, I noticed that instead of a glowing fuzzy orb, I could actually see the circle of the sun. The light was like a haze around it, but I could clearly see the shape of it in sharp contrast. I've also noticed that it doesn't seem to be as bright as it used to.

BTW, have you heard about C h in a making their own sun? They 'launched' it a bit ago, wasn't supposed to be photographed but was and video got out. Also I've seen others talking about two suns, seen in close proximity at the same time.

 

[Torah Keeper]

Yes, that is interesting.

Let me ask you a question, have you looked at the sun recently - with the naked eye? I know we're not supposed to and I try and avoid it but the other day while coming home from the store I was driving right into the sun. It was going down, about 1 1/2 hrs before sunset. When I saw it before putting down my visor, I noticed that instead of a glowing fuzzy orb, I could actually see the circle of the sun. The light was like a haze around it, but I could clearly see the shape of it in sharp contrast. I've also noticed that it doesn't seem to be as bright as it used to.

BTW, have you heard about C h in a making their own sun? They 'launched' it a bit ago, wasn't supposed to be photographed but was and video got out. Also I've seen others talking about two suns, seen in close proximity at the same time.

Here in TN it has been extremely bright. Brighter than ever in my opinion. Although I have seen the sharp contrast as you mention, many times. I have also seen the shape of planets, and the rings of Saturn in an amateur telescope. But stars are always fuzzy points of flickering light, no matter the power of the telescope.

 

[dani'el]

Yes, it's ashame that pagan quotes are in the canon, and not just there, I believe there's more in Acts as well.

But using that as an example, not only quoting it by repeating a lie. Surely not ALL cretans were always liars, evil beasts or lazy gluttons.

So the Bible, and by extension God is lieing? This can never be, so there must be another explanation.

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

"All the world?" So the American Indians were registered by Roman decree? No. Even in English "all" doesn't always mean "all." "We all know ..." really? Everyone? No, when things like this are said it is understood to be an exaggeration. Taken as a whole, "all" Cretans were that way. Taken as individuals I am sure an exception or two could be found.

Your own statement takes this concept and reverses it, starting at an obvious overstatement and coming to an obvious false conclusion.

 

[Torah Keeper]

So the Bible, and by extension God is lieing? This can never be, so there must be another explanation.

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

"All the world?" So the American Indians were registered by Roman decree? No. Even in English "all" doesn't always mean "all." "We all know ..." really? Everyone? No, when things like this are said it is understood to be an exaggeration. Taken as a whole, "all" Cretans were that way. Taken as individuals I am sure an exception or two could be found.

Your own statement takes this concept and reverses it, starting at an obvious overstatement and coming to an obvious false conclusion.

The decree was that all the world should be registered. That does not mean the Romans actually registered all the world. So, the fault is not with Luke but with the silly Roman idea that they had conquered all the world.

The Cretans could very well have been 100% liars and such as described. It was an island nation and back then, it was probably very homogenous. So that example is not the same as Luke.

I just wanted to clarify that, in case readers of this forum misunderstood your point.

Blessings

 

[Lulav]

So the Bible, and by extension God is lieing? This can never be, so there must be another explanation.

You said 'Paul quoted the Cretan poet Epimenides, a pagan'

So does that make God a pagan? I hate to burst your bubble but not everything that's in the bible is 'God breathed' or directly from his mouth. Even Paul admits many times that he is NOT speaking for the LORD but from himself and he was not perfect.

Epimenides was considered by Paul to be a prophet, but in actuality he is known for being a seer, a mystical poet as well as an astral traveler.

Epimenides was a pagan Cretan. So when he says that all Cretan's are liars, he must also include himself.

If Epiminedes is a liar, then the statement that “all Cretans are liars” must be a lie, which would mean all Cretans tell the truth, which means Epimenides tells the truth, which means the statement “all Cretans are liars” is both true and false.

So when Paul says:
12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
13 This testimony is true.

So Paul is verifying this statement from a man who lived 500 years before that it meant all the way down to the present time.
But you want that to be the 'Word of God'?

So if All cretans were liars, evil and lazy where would Timothy even find one to qualify as a Bishop there?

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

"All the world?" So the American Indians were registered by Roman decree? No. Even in English "all" doesn't always mean "all."

All the known world or better yet since it was from a Caesar it would mean the Roman Empire.

"We all know ..." really? Everyone? No, when things like this are said it is understood to be an exaggeration. Taken as a whole, "all" Cretans were that way. Taken as individuals I am sure an exception or two could be found.

You don't find it unsettling that Paul would quote from a pagan like that? Not only that but he testifies that it is true.

Your own statement takes this concept and reverses it, starting at an obvious overstatement and coming to an obvious false conclusion.

 

[daq]

The Cretan passage boils down to semantics. The word generally rendered as always there is aei and actually means ever, in the sense of regularly, which is not quite the same as always.

G104 ἀεί aei (a-ei') adv.
1. “ever.”
2. (by qualification) regularly.
3. (by implication) earnestly.

It's not saying that every time a Cretan would open his or her mouth a lie would come forth. If a Cretan says to his wife that he needs to go to the bathroom is he lying? Or if he tells his wife he is going to the market is he lying? If his wife asks him to get some eggs at the market, because they are out, is she lying? There is a background context in Titus and that would be the more important spiritual matters, things about which, apparently, Cretans were ever liars. The modern conundrum proposed by some scholars, concerning where Paul quotes Epiminedes, probably didn't even exist in Paul's time. Moreover the reputed statement of Epiminedes was supposedly that "All Cretans are liars" and Paul doesn't put all in the statement.

 

[Lulav]

The Cretan passage boils down to semantics. The word generally rendered as always there is aei and actually means ever, in the sense of regularly, which is not quite the same as always.

G104 ἀεί aei (a-ei') adv.
1. “ever.”
2. (by qualification) regularly.
3. (by implication) earnestly.

It's not saying that every time a Cretan would open his or her mouth a lie would come forth. If a Cretan says to his wife that he needs to go to the bathroom is he lying? Or if he tells his wife he is going to the market is he lying? If his wife asks him to get some eggs at the market, because they are out, is she lying? There is a background context in Titus and that would be the more important spiritual matters, things about which, apparently, Cretans were ever liars. The modern conundrum proposed by some scholars, concerning where Paul quotes Epiminedes, probably didn't even exist in Paul's time. Moreover the reputed statement of Epiminedes was supposedly that "All Cretans are liars" and Paul doesn't put all in the statement.

12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true.......

Saying 'are always', does make is seem like All.

'Cretans are always liars' - Paul

'All Cretans are liars' - Epimenides


Here Paul is saying that they always lie.

"It's not saying that every time a Cretan would open his or her mouth a lie would come forth."​

​

Yes, it basically is.

 

[dani'el]

The decree was that all the world should be registered. That does not mean the Romans actually registered all the world. So, the fault is not with Luke but with the silly Roman idea that they had conquered all the world.

The Cretans could very well have been 100% liars and such as described. It was an island nation and back then, it was probably very homogenous. So that example is not the same as Luke.

I just wanted to clarify that, in case readers of this forum misunderstood your point.

Blessings

I thought my point was pretty clear. And homogenous or not, I'd still expect some Cretans to be worse, and some better than others. As to the Romans, they were fighting wars in the west, and insurrections in the east supported by nations that bordered Roman held territories. So they did not think they had conquered the entire world. So take your pick: most of Germania, Sardonia, northern Britainia and Caledonia ... they were not taxed, and the Romans kew it all too well. My example was a bit more extreme (for effect), but same-same. "All" the world was not taxed. The term "all" may have been used in the same way of the Cretans. But whether you or I am right about that one, I think we can agree, God, through Paul did not lie.

 

[dani'el]

You said 'Paul quoted the Cretan poet Epimenides, a pagan'

Yes, I did. And he did

So does that make God a pagan?

Really? You are fast going past the limits of credulity here. But no, and please do not try to lay that charge at my feet.

I hate to burst your bubble but not everything that's in the bible is 'God breathed' or directly from his mouth. Even Paul admits many times that he is NOT speaking for the LORD but from himself and he was not perfect.

Paul said this in specific instances. But as a shaliach tzibur, a representative of that early assembly he spoke with the authority of and at the unction of the Ruach most (by far) of the time.

Epimenides was considered by Paul to be a prophet,

He was considered to be a prophet in the classical Greek circles, but I do not recall Paul saying that. What Paul said was "a prophet of their own." Not 'mine,' not 'ours,' but "their own. Understand, not all prophets are of God. So Paul may or may not have actually thought he was a prophet. But he wasn't a prophet to either Paul or the Nazarine sect.

but in actuality he is known for being a seer, a mystical poet as well as an astral traveler.

He was considered by the Greeks to be all of those: AND a prophet.

Epimenides was a pagan Cretan. So when he says that all Cretan's are liars, he must also include himself.

LOL, that's called the Cretan Paradox. Considering how you ar handling this discussion I am not even going to go there with you. Paradoxes are made to go in circles ...

So Paul is verifying this statement from a man who lived 500 years before that it meant all the way down to the present time.

Paul was using the statement by one of their own to make a point, nothing more.

But you want that to be the 'Word of God'?

Whether I (or more particularly you) want it to or not does not matter. It is in the word, NOT the word.

So if All cretans were liars, evil and lazy where would Timothy even find one to qualify as a Bishop there?

I have already answered that. Go ye therefore and find it, and get back to me when you have.

All the known world or better yet since it was from a Caesar it would mean the Roman Empire.

Exactly.

You don't find it unsettling that Paul would quote from a pagan like that?

No.

Not only that but he testifies that it is true.

Titus 1:10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

To paraphrase the old real-estate adage, the three most important things in scriptural interpretation/understanding are context, context, context. Rerad, and this time THINK, and again get back to me. But if you insist on applying literal interpretations where they obviously do not apply, I will not even respond. You seem to want to argue just to argue, and I have no time or patience for that. Discussion, yes; but only based on thoughtful reasoning.

 

[daq]

12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true.......

Saying 'are always', does make is seem like All.

'Cretans are always liars' - Paul

'All Cretans are liars' - Epimenides


Here Paul is saying that they always lie.

"It's not saying that every time a Cretan would open his or her mouth a lie would come forth."​

​

Yes, it basically is.

Great, so then, please explain the lie in Acts 2:

Acts 2:7-11 ASV
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilæans?
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judæa and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God.

Uh-oh, the Cretans were obviously lying in Acts 2:11 because, according to a certain paradigm, ALL Cretans ALWAYS lie.

Sorry Lulav, that just isn't going to work for me. : )

 

[Paul4JC]

Let me ask you a question, have you looked at the sun recently - with the naked eye? I know we're not supposed to and I try and avoid it but the other day while coming home from the store I was driving right into the sun. It was going down, about 1 1/2 hrs before sunset. When I saw it before putting down my visor, I noticed that instead of a glowing fuzzy orb, I could actually see the circle of the sun. The light was like a haze around it, but I could clearly see the shape of it in sharp contrast. I've also noticed that it doesn't seem to be as bright as it used to.

Here in TN it has been extremely bright. Brighter than ever in my opinion. Although I have seen the sharp contrast as you mention, many times. I have also seen the shape of planets, and the rings of Saturn in an amateur telescope. But stars are always fuzzy points of flickering light, no matter the power of the telescope.

I don't think the sun has lost its brightness at all....for now! The best way to look at it is through a camera, which I often like to do.

 

[Lulav]

Great, so then, please explain the lie in Acts 2:

Acts 2:7-11 ASV
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilæans?
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judæa and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God.

Uh-oh, the Cretans were obviously lying in Acts 2:11 because, according to a certain paradigm, ALL Cretans ALWAYS lie.

Sorry Lulav, that just isn't going to work for me. : )

But who was saying that? A Parthian? a Mede? an Elamite. someone from the Mesopotamian area, from Cappadocia, a Judean, Asian, from Egypt or Libya, From Rome even or Arabia, but can we be certain it was or wasn't a Cretan?

 

[Lulav]

Yes, I did. And he did

Really? You are fast going past the limits of credulity here. But no, and please do not try to lay that charge at my feet.

Paul said this in specific instances. But as a shaliach tzibur, a representative of that early assembly he spoke with the authority of and at the unction of the Ruach most (by far) of the time.

He was considered to be a prophet in the classical Greek circles, but I do not recall Paul saying that. What Paul said was "a prophet of their own." Not 'mine,' not 'ours,' but "their own. Understand, not all prophets are of God. So Paul may or may not have actually thought he was a prophet. But he wasn't a prophet to either Paul or the Nazarine sect.

He was considered by the Greeks to be all of those: AND a prophet.

LOL, that's called the Cretan Paradox. Considering how you ar handling this discussion I am not even going to go there with you. Paradoxes are made to go in circles ...

Paul was using the statement by one of their own to make a point, nothing more.

Whether I (or more particularly you) want it to or not does not matter. It is in the word, NOT the word.

I have already answered that. Go ye therefore and find it, and get back to me when you have.

Exactly.

No.

Titus 1:10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

To paraphrase the old real-estate adage, the three most important things in scriptural interpretation/understanding are context, context, context. Rerad, and this time THINK, and again get back to me. But if you insist on applying literal interpretations where they obviously do not apply, I will not even respond. You seem to want to argue just to argue, and I have no time or patience for that. Discussion, yes; but only based on thoughtful reasoning.

You try to circumvent and obfuscate everything I post so I won't bother wasting any more time on this. Besides it doesn't have anything to do with what the stars are, the actual OP. My bad for following your rabbit trail.

"Rerad, and this time THINK, and again get back to me. But if you insist on applying literal interpretations where they obviously do not apply, I will not even respond. You seem to want to argue just to argue, and I have no time or patience for that. Discussion, yes; but only based on thoughtful reasoning."​

Goading and belittling me is certainly not in accordance with the sites rules nor as a fellow Messianic.

 

[Lulav]

I don't think the sun has lost its brightness at all....for now! The best way to look at it is through a camera, which I often like to do.

Yes, I've noticed the flickering, as well as the different colors. When viewed with the naked eye they seem to be a silvery bluish white, however when magnified definite colors can be see. Red, Blue, Green, Purple even. Not sure if that has to do with the firmament acting like a prism of sorts or what.

 

[daq]

But who was saying that? A Parthian? a Mede? an Elamite. someone from the Mesopotamian area, from Cappadocia, a Judean, Asian, from Egypt or Libya, From Rome even or Arabia, but can we be certain it was or wasn't a Cretan?

See? Confusion. The author of Acts should have known that all Cretans are always liars if indeed that is the case, and therefore, should not have included them in the "we" of that passage. Either that or perhaps your reading of the Titus passage is a little too rigid and imposing on the text?

 

[daq]

“Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”

The seventh letter of the finger of Elohim in the heavens is the crown, Zer, (for the letter Zeth or Zeh, but the name of the constellation is Zer). The crown extends upward from the head of Virgo and consists of six stars on the upper line and six stars on the lower line, twelve stars, (Revelation 12:1). Moreover one of the stars is actually in Leo, the Lion, and counting the names from right to left, and from top to bottom, that same star in Leo is the star of Yhudah, (the Lion of Yhudah). Moreover the crown dips downward on the left in order to join the head of Virgo, and if we exchange only two names in their order of birth, those of Benyamin and Yosef, for the positions of the last two stars and their names, all the stars then symbolically bow to the star of Yosef because of the shape of the crown on the left end. This makes sense also because Yosef was counted as dead when his brethren betrayed him, cast him into a pit, and then sold him into slavery into Mitzraim, which is of course to the south, just as the star of Yosef in the constellation. The constellation names of Leo and Virgo didn't show up in the first image file below, (which is from the open source Stellarium software), but they are the two constellations which appear on the left in the first image file, the upper left being Leo, and the lower left being Virgo.

 

[Lulav]

What is the FEH, UWEH, HEH, ZEH AND REH?

And where would Jacob and Rachel be?

 

[Lulav]

Getting back to 'What really are the Stars?

Here's a verse to ponder

Nehemiah 9:6​

​

“You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.

 

[daq]

What is the FEH, UWEH, HEH, ZEH AND REH?

The Feh, (F), Uweh, (Waw), and Heh are some of the letters of the constellations that come before phonetic Z, (the letter Zeh/Zayin). The whole ABGaD or alphabet is like a great vine running through the heavens: they are all connected.

PS: to try to explain the questions I know you will have would take your thread way off course, but there is indeed a letter Feh, (phonetic F, separate from Peh).

 

[Lulav]

On your chart are they supposed to have a line drawn to form something?