What proof would you need?

[Astridhere]

[/color]

How do you go from "misaligned" to "from two individuals". Please explain.

You can try to save face by hiding behind articulation. The sad point is that this pelvis is put together from pieces. This rubbish of a reconstruction is the best they could do despite trying desperately to make some humanized ape, is it? How do the two halves get to be so out of whack?????

It is because they are not from the same individual.

I can not believe you guys get away with this sort of fraudulent misrepresentation.

Also, you are ignoring that possibility that the pelvis is from two transitional hominids. The skull alone is transitional. Other pelvises from other H. erectus individuals have been found, and they are transitional as well.
So now you play the game of avoidance with yet another apologetic story to butt cover your sorry excuses for evolutionary researchers. I am not ignoring anything Loudmouth. The pelvis of Turkana Boy is sold to the public as a single individual, and you know it. So apologetics do not cut it.
[/color]

Modern humans are a chimp/bonobo relative. Have you not been paying attention?
Yet another avoidance, clearly misrepresenting the evolutionary status quo. This is Loudmouth disagreeing with his own evo researchers that stipulate over and over that the common ancestor was not like a chimpanzee. This is desperation at its best. Here you demonstrate that you are on the loosing foot and are coming up with really silly things to say. There is meant to be acommon ancestor in the middle of us and chimps, remember dear. It is not chimp like and is not a knuckle walker eg Ardi.

So your entire reply is based on avoidence. We creationists can clearly see it and I'd be surprised if evos could even miss it.

Indeed Lucy is a chimp, according to Dawkins and her human like body from the waist down is much the same as Turkana Boys. The diagram is presented. Observation is simple. You should try it sometime.


Lucy is more like modern humans from the waist down than other living apes. Do you agree or disagree?


I agree that Lucy has been reconstructed more than movie stars have had face lifts. I agree that as my previous post demonstrates your evidence is flawed. Waddlers do not leave human gait footprints. Turkana Boy is a fraud with an obviously out of whack pelvis. Turkana Boys ape head is the same as Rudolfensis with a cranial capacity of 525cc. I agree that Turkana Boy is about to have a pelvic reconstruction to suit flavour of the month. I agree that evolutionary researchers have little idea of what they are doing and misrepresent fossils as a matter of course.


I am not saying Lucy is like modern humans from the waist down at all. I am saying your silly researchers have reconstructed a bunch of bones into looking human like from the waist down and sprook that she is human like from the waist down. That is a mile away from your desperate twist of my words.

No feet were given to Lucy. Other feet were attributed to Australopithecines, and it is speculated that these feet were capable of producing those footprints. This is still hotly debated within scientific circles. The fact remains that the pieces of Lucy that we do have are transitional because they have a mixture of primitive and derived features, exactly what a transitional should have.

So a chimp brain, curved fingers, long arms, being 3.5ft tall, goes with a human like body does it? That was a great story a few years ago, lovey. Now this ape head, with a human like body is regarded as a chimp/bonobo ancestor and not in the human line at all.
I'd say that leaves your transitional human up the creek without a paddle to get back to humanity.

By transitional are you trying to confuse an adaptation of an ape becoming a chimp (ape to ape) with an ape becoming human(common ancestor to human) and trying to swindle the forum with a play on words. It is very obvious you feel so threatened.

H. erectus appears human? Can I quote you on that?

No you can quote the falsification of Turkana Boy, I have named, Turk The Misfit, with a whacky pelvis....to the Leakeys.

I guess you missed the other parts of the skeleton? Or do you think that H. erectus had nothing from the waist up?

Well perhaps you should look closer. I have spoken to both ends of the conundrum. Do you think no one will look back and see you are prepared to say goodbye to your credibility in an effort to save face here.

It doesn't matter what scientists do. You will call it a "flavour of the month" and ignore it. Such is the denial rife within the creationist community.

Oh come on now..who are you trying to kid. We have spoken to a few here not least of which is the knucklewalking ancestry you lot shoved in our faces with all the woffle for 150 years that changed with Ardi, that as Dawkins says...is a gorilla. Ha Ha Ha......

It demonstrates a pelvis more like that of modern humans than other apes. That is what makes it transitional.

Oh...Please ....show me a pelvis on a human that is so dramatically and obviously out of whach that a 10 year old could pick it. What a fraud trying to pass this thing off to the public as one individual. Did these researchers get their credentials off the back of a Corn Flakes packet?

I guess you missed the part about sexual dimorphism in H. erectus?

A lousey try at having something to say with nothing to say. The sexual dimorphism does not explain an athlete poofing into a waddler, virtually overnight, that could not have possibly left perfect human gait footprints, pal. That is how you get the data and use observation to discern it, a trait of which evolutionists are clearly challenged.

I can't wait untill we see the back pedaling of these evo researchers scurrying off and making up some new story. I can't wait to hear the story of "the waddler and the athlete" either. That'll be a good one... Could make a great movie title.

Again, ignoring the evidence does not make it go away.

After the fraud I have demonstrated just today I would not be surprised if Turkana Boy was a Teletubbie or a penguin.

[/font]

What about it?

Now, we must not forget about the human-like femur that was associated with KNM-ER 1470, even though located several kilometers away from the skull fragments.

Yes,,I have not forgotten this Rudolfensis is yet another misrepresentation that has had a face life..as if your researchers have any idea at all. This is a game to them. They can be consistently wrong and not get fired.


Human like could mean anything to your researchers as is demonstrated with Sedibas apey hands. We need to check every thing you lot say. If this femur is in the human range, it will not belong with Rudolfensis not Turk because a female erectus pelvis suggests they were still wadling 1.5mya, and should have a somewhat curved leg bone still being a transition from an ape, not a perfectly straight leg. You have very human-like legs on Lucy and she is just a chimp/bonobo ancestor and not in the human line at all. Meaning..you lot have no idea!!!

You mean the femur that was associate with the same species? Given that they came from the same time period I don't see why this is unjustified. Besides, we have human-like femurs associated with Turkana boy, and those bones were found within 7 meters of each other.

No a better notion for you to take away with you is if evidence of homo sapiens were found out of place these researchers would have a lot of back peddling to do. I'd have to look into this so called human-like bone in much more depth. Human-like to your researchers could mean anything.

It would appear that it is impossible for you to present any evidence to back up your empty assertions.

This is boring Loudmouth. I am using your own evo research to make my points and clearly you will not even admit to your own evo common thinking.

Let us take one point at a time.
Both H. erectus and H. habilis are transitional.

Let's start with one pont at a time. Let's look at what is purported to be your best evidence.. Turk.

Sorry, but your made up stories do not amount to evidence of fraud. If all you have is made up stories of fraud then you have no valid reason to reject these fossils as transitional.
Well let's see just who is talking out of where!!!!

[/quote]


I can see it is difficult for some to see the obvious. Let's stick to one observation so you can focus.....

What sort of human has this kind of out of whack pelvis?

Don't worry about spending your time in denial and misrepresentations in the rest of the post. Speaking to many points at a time seems to cover evos obvious lack of credibility.

Just let's speak to the first part of my last post.

What human has a pelvis that is out of whack like Turkana Boy. Do you think he got around with a limp or a hobble, if there is any credibility at all behind this thing being passed off to the public as one individual.?

This Turkana Boy is not the same individual. Human pelvis, indeed any pelvis is not out of whack like this one. Having two different sized pelvis halves demonstrates clearly that there was at least two individuals here. Perhaps you think your researchers and the pages and pages of woffle are rubbish like I do.

Now what have you to say to explain this whacky pelvis.

 

[sandwiches]

Loudmouth, it amazes me that you still take the time to reply to Astrid's inane ramblings. At this point, any forum lurker or fence-sitter will see her game for what it is.

 

[Doveaman]

Even though Astridhere is on ignore, he/she is still somehow able to post massive walls of text. The Force is strong with this one.

Not all of us here have achieved your superior level of biasness.

 

[CabVet]

Loudmouth, it amazes me that you still take the time to reply to Astrid's inane ramblings. At this point, any forum lurker or fence-sitter will see her game for what it is.

I was about to post exactly that.

 

[Doveaman]

Loudmouth, it amazes me that you still take the time to reply to Astrid's inane ramblings. At this point, any forum lurker or fence-sitter will see her game for what it is.

This lurker sees it as an argument you are fleeing from. As far as I'm concerned she has already won the argument. So maybe, yes, she should stop wasting her precious pearls on you lot.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Not all of us here have achieved your superior level of biasness.

I'm biased? How so?

 

[USincognito]

This lurker sees it as an argument you are fleeing from. As far as I'm concerned she has already won the argument. So maybe, yes, she should stop wasting her precious pearls on you lot.

Precious pearls?

The woman who called Salem "Lucy's child" for weeks? The woman who conflated a modern human skeleton with Lucy for weeks? The woman who continues to claim a orangutan skull looks more human than Turkana boy's? The woman who continues to read things, who knows where, and stretch them into unsupportable assertions like Hyracotherium resembling a tapir (Ummm, does she not understand why it was called a Hyracotherium when first discovered and not a Tapirotherium?), Turkana boy being spread over a great distance and his pelvis being "reconfigured" to waddle instead of stride, etc. etc. etc.

And, most importantly, who continues posting giant walls of self-congratulatory text while apparently being unable to understand or use the quote function?

Pearls...

 

[Astridhere]

Precious pearls?

The woman who called Salem "Lucy's child" for weeks? The woman who conflated a modern human skeleton with Lucy for weeks? The woman who continues to claim a orangutan skull looks more human than Turkana boy's? The woman who continues to read things, who knows where, and stretch them into unsupportable assertions like Hyracotherium resembling a tapir (Ummm, does she not understand why it was called a Hyracotherium when first discovered and not a Tapirotherium?), Turkana boy being spread over a great distance and his pelvis being "reconfigured" to waddle instead of stride, etc. etc. etc.

And, most importantly, who continues posting giant walls of self-congratulatory text while apparently being unable to understand or use the quote function?

Pearls...

Lucy and Salem are the same species. Is this best you got to defend the whackey pelvis?

If you want to poke fun at people you didn't even know Turk was found scattered over 1250 cubic meters of dirt. Does that mean you are cognitively challenged and should I remind you of it every time you post when I have nothing else intelligent to say


I just love it when you are all so gob smacked you can longer address an issue without resorting to ridicule as a last resort. I can see this, everyone can see this.

Do explain this whackey pelvis that a 10 year old could pick as a flaw.

Why don't you have a go and explain why these blind scientists with Corn Flake packet credentials have had absolutely nothing to say about the obvious.

Do you suppose Loudmouth isn't big enough to reply for himself

 

[Astridhere]

This lurker sees it as an argument you are fleeing from. As far as I'm concerned she has already won the argument. So maybe, yes, she should stop wasting her precious pearls on you lot.

Thank you Doveaman..

I really need to address one single point at a time with this lot. The lack of credibiity obvious in evolutionary tales is hidden in whimsical replies to many points. The whackey pelvis is just one example.

Loudmouth went on about multiples being around and woffle woffle as a hand wave away, as usual, totally ignoring that these evo researchers claim Turk is a single individual, the basis of all the woffle they carry on with.


Evolutionists scurry away when gobsmacked and resort to asides and ridicule.

I guess we either won't see Loudmouth back with a reply at all because he scurries off when the going gets tough, or he'll be back hitting on some unrelated point to diffuse the obvious lack of credibility Turks whackey pelvis presents.

 

[sandwiches]

As far as I'm concerned she has already won the argument..

As far as you're concerned, anyone who agrees with you has "won the argument," dove.

 

[Astridhere]

As far as you're concerned, anyone who agrees with you has "won the argument," dove.

Good to see none of you evolutionists have got a plausible explanation for Turks' whackey pelvis.

I think this point is established. Turkana Boys credibility as a single individual is falsified. There is no explanation apart from blindness, and I am shocked that this kind of misrepresentation is not called for what it is.

My next point that furthers the whackey pelvis point is...Evolutionary researchers have no idea what they are on about?

As you know the famous evo Dawkins believes Lucy is a chimp/bonobo ancestor, meaning ape to ape.

Lucy, 3.2myo. If there is any credibility to any of this at all, the fossil evidence of the hands has been found, feet were not. The hands were curved and apey. The Laetoli footprints apparently suggest a biped, flat footed human footprint with a human gait. Lucy has the reduced pelvis, and human like legs, up until recently purported to be evidence of evolving towards humanity. Now all this 'humanity' is on its' way to supposedly becoming a chimp or bonobo. The female erectus is a waddler. So are evolutionists asserting that Lucy had a more human gait than an Erectus female waddler?

The Demansisi fossils of Georgia are homo erectus, dated to 1.7mya, have ape feet and hands. It is interesting that any fossil evidence of hands and feet in these bipeds are always apey. You lot keep saying 'human like', which means nothing, as in the case of Lucy the chimp and Ardi the gorilla.

Odd Fossil Skeletons Show Both Apelike and Human Traits


Then there is Sediba, 2myo, the latest flavour of the month as human ancestor found with apey hands that were human like hands. Seriously, they are more apey than Ardis, with a long long thumb.

Handier than Homo habilis? Versatile hand of Australopithecus sediba makes a better candidate for an early tool-making hominin

Ardi was found with ape feet and ape hands.

So there is much evidence that around 1.7 to 2mya homonids had ape hands and feet. There is no evidence of human feet or hands on any homonid up to erectus/ergaster. You have little if any evidence for chimp and gorilla ancestors.


Clearly if Lucy with all her 'human' traits, is becoming a chimp or bonobo, then so could any homonid, including Erectus be on its way to becoming another variety of ape or dead end ape., and these researcher really have no idea.

The evidence for creation is confirmation of the evolutionary prediction that if God created there will be no transitional fossils between ape to man. There may be adaptation from ape to ape. This is exactly what is demonstrated in the fossil evidence with fossils dated as young as 1.7myo having ape like hands and feet. It takes non plausible stories like putting human feet on a curved fingered apes, while the female erectus still waddled around 1.2mya to build straw men for evolutionists.

Evolutionary researchers never let common sense, real science and observation get in the way of a great story. Clearly the fossil evidence that is found relatively in tact and colocated suggests the very homonids that became chimps and bonobos and gorillas were still apes between 1.7-4.4mya

Something is very, very amiss here. You evos could not explain the Turks whackey pelvis and defend his individuality as purported by the Leakeys. Can any of you speak to the above?

 

[AV1611VET]

What proof do creationists need that creationism is true?

None ... the Bible is sufficient.

 

[USincognito]

I think this point is established. Turkana Boys credibility as a single individual is falsified.

You think a lot of things. Few turn out to be true.

This is just another example of that.

 

[Astridhere]

None ... the Bible is sufficient.

That is correct AV. The bible writers had advanced knowledge of scientific facts that were way ahead of their time. That is sufficient to demonstrate the credibility of the bible despite all the woffle and intelligencia around who wrote what and when. The bible is also the only spiritual guide where the numerous writers do not take glory for themselves and get rich from a faith. This in itself is miraculous.

101 Scientifc Facts & Foreknowledge - New Life

USincognito and Sandwiches..you have poppped in numerous times and had absolutley nothing of substance to contribute except hiding behind ridicule, silly useless comments to cover your gobsmacked inability to defend yourself, and a flat out refusal to defend your fossil evidence. That, my dears, says it all about you both.

However, AV..... there is also evidence in support of the creation. My post above demonstrates there is only non plausible scenarios to support the transition of ape to mankind.

There is also supportive evidence that mankind was around at the same time Lucy, 3.2myo, was adapting into a chimp, being an ape to ape adaptation. This demonstrates how the initial creation of one or a few varieties of non human primates, became the diverse group they are today, apes still remaining in the ape kind. eg Lucy to chimp, Ardi to gorilla, as Dawkins asserts.

For example a human metatarsel was dated to 3.5myo supports mankind predating Lucy. Researchers attributed this metatarsel to Lucy along with the Laetoli footprints because she was the only species known at this time.

A human metatarsel could not possibly belong to an ape heading for chimpdom or bonobo land, as Richard Dawkins asserts. Even some evo researchers were skeptical about attributing this metatarsel to Lucy as the article below demonstrates.

Short Sharp Science: The twist that shows Lucy wasn't flat-footed

Laetoli Footprint Trails | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program

Lucy could not have a fully formed human arched foot because she is a chimp. If it is Lucy's then Lucy the chimp had human feet and more of a human gait than a waddling female erectus at 1.2mya. Can we see the nonsense in this? One does not have to be a scientist to see the non plausibility of this story.

This is why I have asked evos to speak to my last post around this conundrum. Evos are unable to defend Turks' whackey pelvis and so far have not spoken to my last post either. That also says it all.......

The support for human evolution would be falsified if a homo sapiens were around 3.5 million years ago as the metatarsel suggests. In fact there is strong evidence that at 1.7mya non human primates had ape feet and curved fingers in Georgia. Hence these researchers must create ridiculous scenarios of chimp ancestors with arched human feet to keep their theory alive, as they have no idea what else was around and they are desperate.

However this metatarsel is creationists evidence of mankind predating its supposed ancestors which aligns with the creationist prediction that there are no intermediate apes to mankind.

Evos just refuse to call it for what it is simply because it would destroy their theory. Mankind simply appears in the fossil record with no intermediates at 3.5mya with a human metatarsel fossil, which supports the creation of mankind as an individual creation, not an evolved ape.

So, AV there is actually support and evidence for the creation. The human metatarsel predating the supposed human ancestors is just one of them.

Evolutionary researchers will not let science and observation get in the way of a good story. It takes non plausible scenarios to turn the obvious evidence in support of creation into an evolutionary mystery.

 

[cupid dave]

Hegel predicts the outcome here, in a Synthesis between the Anti-thesis, atheist anti-bible pro-science side of the debate and the erroneous Thesis of the medieval Christian mis-reading of Genesis.

The Dialect at work here will be transformed into a Bible interpretation which is supported by science as the next generation reviews the history of this argument.



It is an easy prophecy to say that the future generations will see that science supports the connection between the 22 extinct species in the ascent of modern man with the 22 names in Genesis.

The major issue for Creationists is to find some or ANY evidence that any species or Ape has ever live 950 years.
Otherwise, this duration of time implies thousands of years were the actual meaning.

 

[Astridhere]

Hegel predicts the outcome here, in a Synthesis between the Anti-thesis, atheist anti-bible pro-science side of the debate and the erroneous Thesis of the medieval Christian mis-reading of Genesis.

The Dialect at work here will be transformed into a Bible interpretation which is supported by science as the next generation reviews the history of this argument.

That's great cupid Dave. Too bad science does not support evolution at all....as demonstrated by my previous posts here.

It is an easy prophecy to say that the future generations will see that science supports the connection between the 22 extinct species in the ascent of modern man with the 22 names in Genesis.
There is no conecection between man and ape as demonstrated by Lucy and all her humanity being a chimp ancestor.
The major issue for Creationists is to find some or ANY evidence that any species or Ape has ever live 950 years.
Otherwise, this duration of time implies thousands of years were the actual meaning.
You do not get to state the basis of any issue for real biblical creationists.

The major issue for creationists is to find suportive evidence for the creation. No one has all the answer, not even evos, as demonstrated by 150 years of instability and changed thinking.

In relation to mankind the sudden appearance of mankind in the fossil record with no substantiated intermediate ape/humans and a metatarsel predating the supposed ancestors demonstates the evidence (as biased as what it is towards evolution) supports the creation better than evolution. One example of this being achieved is the demonstation of fully human footprints dated to 1.5myo that could not belong to an ape that wadded eg The Gona female pelvis.

The Shoe Fits! 1.5 Million-Year-Old Human Footprints Found | LiveScience

Clearly, something is amiss. The body size dimorphism seems reasonable, but the pelvic shape suggests extreme behavioral dimorphism as well (males were out running long distances while the females waddled around bearing children at home).
The New Homo erectus pelvis from Gona « A Primate of Modern Aspect

The other issue for creationists is to debunk evolution. This is already achieved by the demonstration that even well credentialed researchers such as Dawkins have not got any clue what they are talking about by humanizing Lucy then suggesting Lucy is a chimp/bonobo ancestor with no humanity at all.

Paranthropus as ancestors of gorilla, have been reached by at least two other biologists, independently: the author of the "Paranthropus aethiopicus" page of the "Online Biology Dictionary" and Richard Dawkins in his book "The Ancestor's Tale". According to this theory, chimps and bonobos are descended from Australopithecus gracile type species while gorillas are descended from Paranthropus robustus P. boisei or P. aethiopicus. These apes may have once been bipedal, but then lost this ability when they were forced back into an arboreal habitat, presumably by those australopithecines who eventually became us. In short, the ancestors of chimpanzees and gorillas are A. afarensis and Paranthropus, respectively.
Homininae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So before you can peddle your theist evolution perhaps you should confirm that evolution is more than the non plausible myth it is.

 

[cupid dave]

The major issue for creationists is to find suportive evidence for the creation. No one has all the answer, not even evos, as demonstrated by 150 years of instability and changed thinking.

In relation to mankind the sudden appearance of mankind in the fossil record with no substantiated intermediaate ape/humans. One example of this being achieved is the demonstation of fully human footprints dated to 1.5myo that could not belong to an ape that wadded eg The Gona female pelvis.
The Shoe Fits! 1.5 Million-Year-Old Human Footprints Found | LiveScience

Clearly, something is amiss. The body size dimorphism seems reasonable, but the pelvic shape suggests extreme behavioral dimorphism as well (males were out running long distances while the females waddled around bearing children at home).
The New Homo erectus pelvis from Gona « A Primate of Modern Aspect

The other issue for creationists is to debunk evolution. This is already achieved by the demonstration that even well credentialed researchers such as Dawkins have not got any clue what they are talking about by humanizing Lucy then suggesting Lucy is a chimp/bonobo ancestor with no humanity at all.

Paranthropus as ancestors of gorilla, have been reached by at least two other biologists, independently: the author of the "Paranthropus aethiopicus" page of the "Online Biology Dictionary" and Richard Dawkins in his book "The Ancestor's Tale". According to this theory, chimps and bonobos are descended from Australopithecus gracile type species while gorillas are descended from Paranthropus robustus P. boisei or P. aethiopicus. These apes may have once been bipedal, but then lost this ability when they were forced back into an arboreal habitat, presumably by those australopithecines who eventually became us. In short, the ancestors of chimpanzees and gorillas are A. afarensis and Paranthropus, respectively.
Homininae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So before you can peddle your theist evolution perhaps you should confirm that evolution is more than the non plausible myth it is.

Your staunch opposition to anything on the other side is the Reaction to the Action of atheists and scientists forcing their ideas forward through public education.

This is the way the two irreconciliable positions push forward the Synthetic.

The purpose of the dialectic method of reasoning is resolution of disagreement through rational discussion, and, ultimately, the search for truth.
The dialectical resolution of disagreement is by denying a presupposition of the contending thesis and antithesis; thereby, proceeding to sublation (transcendence) to synthesis, a third thesis.


The obvious synthesis = both scienc eand Genesis are saying the same thing about the 22 links in the ascent of modern man.

Check this 2007 book on Amazon:
The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-Two (22) Species of Extinct Humans.

 

[Astridhere]

Cupid Dave says....

Your staunch opposition to anything on the other side is the Reaction to the Action of atheists and scientists forcing their ideas forward through public education.

This is the way the two irreconciliable positions push forward the Synthetic.

"The purpose of the dialectic method of reasoning is resolution of disagreement through rational discussion, and, ultimately, the search for truth.
The dialectical resolution of disagreement is by denying a presupposition of the contending thesis and antithesis; thereby, proceeding to sublation (transcendence) to synthesis, a third thesis.


The obvious synthesis = both scienc eand Genesis are saying the same thing about the 22 links in the ascent of modern man."


Cupid Dave this all sounds very similar to the mumbo that evolutionists carry on with only worse.

You have had nothing to say about the points I made demonstrating that well credentialed scientists have no idea what they are talking about. If TOE is flawed the basis of any of these assertions of yours is out the window and up a tree hanging out with Lucy the chimp.

I, for one, see no progression in any discussion if all you want to do is paste up pictures of bipedal apes and give them names. You then proceed to speak to them as if some paste of pictures and accompanying scenarios gives you some sort of credible evidence.

Your links go nowhere that explains these assertions of yours.

On the one hand you ascribe to evolutionary theory. The accuracy of the evolutionary record is the lynch pin holding your claims together.

The science that you support has already turned Paranthropus into a gorilla.

Here are some extracts to demonstate what is called support for my refute to you.

Between 2.7 million and 1.2 million years ago Paranthropus shared the earth with some early examples of the genus Homo, such as H. habilis and H. ergaster. As far back as 2.7 Mya P. aethiopicus co-existed with A. africanus and A. afarensis. It is widely believed that the Paranthropus lineage died out, leaving no descendants. Although these many similarities between Paranthropus and gorillas were noted in the original papers describing Paranthropus discoveries, the logical conclusion that they could be gorilla ancestors was not proposed.

Some of the most recent Paranthropus fossils are 1 million years old, about one tenth the time since the purported time of divergence of humans and gorillas (7-9 mya). Many of the Paranthropus traits are very much like those of gorillas. In contrast, it is more difficult to place 3- or 4-million-year-old australopithecine fossils in the chimp or human lineages. Most A. africanus fossils seem to be in the human lineage, whereas those of A. afarensis are in the chimp lineage, probably with the exception of "Selam" (3.3 mya), which has been placed in A. afarensis, but has more Homo traits than "Lucy" (3.2 mya), for instance, and might better be placed in A. africanus. According to Adrienne Zihlman, Bonobo body proportions closely resemble those of Australopithecus.[8] The recent discovery of Australopithecus sediba is remarkable.[9] As shown on the figure (Prof. Lee R. Berger) the body proportions of A. sediba are similar to those of "Lucy"; A. sediba could possibly be considered as a late form of A. afarensis.

Mainstream views on Australopithecines evolution can be found in the "human evolution" page, but similar conclusions, suggesting Paranthropus as ancestors of gorilla, have been reached by at least two other biologists, independently: the author of the "Paranthropus aethiopicus" page of the "Online Biology Dictionary" and Richard Dawkins in his book "The Ancestor's Tale". According to this theory, chimps and bonobos are descended from Australopithecus gracile type species while gorillas are descended from Paranthropus robustus P. boisei or P. aethiopicus. These apes may have once been bipedal, but then lost this ability when they were forced back into an arboreal habitat, presumably by those australopithecines who eventually became us. In short, the ancestors of chimpanzees and gorillas are A. afarensis and Paranthropus, respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominine




Unfortunately for you, Cainan is still at the gorilla stage of this mythical evolution, still waiting to evolve into something that can glorify God.

This theory of yours is going to change in knee jerk fashion to every new find just like TOE does. It is going to be rocky road for you on the back of 150 years of instability that does not appear to be coming to an end any time soon.

 

[The Barbarian]

You have had nothing to say about the points I made demonstrating that well credentialed scientists have no idea what they are talking about.

Seems preposterous. But tell me about it, and we'll see.

If TOE is flawed the basis of any of these assertions of yours is out the window and up a tree hanging out with Lucy the chimp.

So any theory that's not perfect is completely wrong, um? That's demonstrably false. Want to see some examples?

The science that you support has already turned Paranthropus into a gorilla.

Um,no. Here's why:
Science. 1988 May 6;240(4853):781-4.
Hand of Paranthropus robustus from Member 1, Swartkrans: fossil evidence for tool behavior.

Susman RL.
Source

Department of Anatomical Sciences, School of Medicine, State University of New York, Stony Brook 11794-8081.

Abstract

New hand fossils from Swartkrans (dated at about 1.8 million years ago) indicate that the hand of Paranthropus robustus was adapted for precision grasping. Functional morphology suggests that Paranthropus could have used tools, possibly for plant procurement and processing. The new fossils further suggest that absence of tool behavior was not responsible for the demise of the "robust" lineage. Conversely, these new fossils indicate that the acquisition of tool behavior does not account for the emergence and success of early Homo.

Here are some extracts to demonstate what is called support for my refute to you.

Between 2.7 million and 1.2 million years ago Paranthropus shared the earth with some early examples of the genus Homo, such as H. habilis and H. ergaster. As far back as 2.7 Mya P. aethiopicus co-existed with A. africanus and A. afarensis. It is widely believed that the Paranthropus lineage died out, leaving no descendants. Although these many similarities between Paranthropus and gorillas were noted in the original papers describing Paranthropus discoveries, the logical conclusion that they could be gorilla ancestors was not proposed.

Nothing logical about that. A bipedal hominin with a hand capable of a precision grip would be rather unlikely to make a 180 degree turn and go back to the primitive ape condition. Sorry.

Other than a saggital crest, there isn't much gorillaish to work with.

 

[Astridhere]

Cupid Dave....

I have put this research below up elsewhere for you. You ignore it. The credibility of evolutionary theory is the lynch pin holding this theistic evolutionist stance.

Posting pictures is not evidence of anything. You have had nothing to say to any point a creaionists makes other than to ignore it and carry on as if posting pictures has some credibility in itself.

Cainan. paranthopus, is still in the gorilla phase according to current thinking. The article speak to a couple of evolutionary researchers that make this assertion, not just one whacko.

Richard Dawkins in his book "The Ancestor's Tale". According to this theory, chimps and bonobos are descended from Australopithecus gracile type species while gorillas are descended from Paranthropus robustus P. boisei or P. aethiopicus. These apes may have once been bipedal, but then lost this ability when they were forced back into an arboreal habitat, presumably by those australopithecines who eventually became us. In short, the ancestors of chimpanzees and gorillas are A. afarensis and Paranthropus, respectively.

Homininae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So for you to maintain your stance, not only do you have to ignore the anomolies I and others have been speaking to, you also have to cherry pick what evolutionary evidence you will support and that which you will ignore.

Adam, Cain, Enoch, Irad and Mehujael, unfortunately have morphed into gorillas and chimps, according to the science you support.

You need to explain to me why much humanity was attributed to Lucy when she is nothing more than a chimp ancestor for starters. The same for Ardi the gorilla. You also need to explain why any of them should be considered any ancestor to humanity given these researcers appear to have no idea what they are talking about.

Evolutionists do not let real science and observation get in the way of a good story. You have just invented another story that is no more plausible than evolutionists assertions.