What Prevents The LDS From Being Saved

[SilenceInMotion]

Your Church does not deem the LDS to be Christians. Why is that?

The Church cannot formerly declare Mormons as Christians because, simply put, they don't meet the general criteria. They are technically cult status.

But a couple on here want to produce a 'holier then thou' attitude, trying to make me seem like I see Mormon theology as correct just because my soul isn't black enough to be a mindless faultfinder, straw manning every sentence I state and generally being a nuisance to anyone who isn't a replica of themselves.

They should just be banned from this topic. It's irritating to the point where I've had a hard time staying my tongue. I cannot stand such pompous, loudmouth nonsense.

 

[Keachian]

I can't stand the pompous accusation that it is somehow the fault of the protestant rejection of the excesses in popery in the 1600s that a known conman managed to garner enough followers to cause his own excesses in the 1800s

 

[motherprayer]

The Church cannot formerly declare Mormons as Christians because, simply put, they don't meet the general criteria. They are technically cult status.

But a couple on here want to produce a 'holier then thou' attitude, trying to make me seem like I see Mormon theology as correct just because my soul isn't black enough to be a mindless faultfinder, straw manning every sentence I state and generally being a nuisance to anyone who isn't a replica of themselves.

They should just be banned from this topic. It's irritating to the point where I've had a hard time staying my tongue. I cannot stand such pompous, loudmouth nonsense.

Have I told you I love you? Your eloquence is marvelous, and you state, well, everything, just beautifully. You make me smile.

(Really sorry for responding this way to your rant, but I'm grinning at the busstop, so since you made me look crazy, I had to get you back SOME way)

 

[SilenceInMotion]

I can't stand the pompous accusation that it is somehow the fault of the protestant rejection of the excesses in popery in the 1600s that a known conman managed to garner enough followers to cause his own excesses in the 1800s

Well it's true. LDS, SDA, and many others result indirectly from Protestantism. They even carry much the same themes and notions. They certainly do not spiral from traditional churches. Ever notice how Lutheranism and Calvinism resulted in countless inner denominations? These other sects simply went a step further. Face it, Protestantism is a breeding ground for scattered churches.

In fact, Catholic means 'universal', so if you are anti-Catholic, you are by definition against unity.

It is something which the Church has always been wary of, and is why in the past it has made strides to keep unison, all the way from Arius to the Inquisitions.

 

[Keachian]

And yet the pope was an Arian at one time, excommunicating Athanasius defender of the faith, some infallibility there

 

[motherprayer]

Well it's true. LDS, SDA, and many others result indirectly from Protestantism. They even carry much the same themes and notions. They certainly do not spiral from traditional churches. Ever notice how Lutheranism and Calvinism resulted in countless inner denominations? These other sects simply went a step further. Face it, Protestantism is a breeding ground for scattered churches.

It is something which the Church has always been wary of, and is why in the past it has made strides to keep unison, all the way from Arius to the Inquisitions.

I HAVE noticed that, actually. But then, the very word "Protestant" seems to signify those who start their own churches to "protest" against the ones they left. Good insight!

 

[skylark1]

The Church deems Protestants Christians in that they are heretical through no fault of their own.

My understanding is that the Catholic Church deems Protestants to be Christians, not because they are heretical through no fault of their own, but because they have been justified by faith in baptism, and therefore incorporated into the body of Christ.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272​

My understanding is that the phrase "through no fault of their own" is used in regard to the issue of salvation, not in the determination of who is a Christian.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338​

 

[Phantasman]

Well it's true. LDS, SDA, and many others result indirectly from Protestantism. They even carry much the same themes and notions. They certainly do not spiral from traditional churches. Ever notice how Lutheranism and Calvinism resulted in countless inner denominations? These other sects simply went a step further. Face it, Protestantism is a breeding ground for scattered churches.

In fact, Catholic means 'universal', so if you are anti-Catholic, you are by definition against unity.

It is something which the Church has always been wary of, and is why in the past it has made strides to keep unison, all the way from Arius to the Inquisitions.

It's ironic. Even Valentinian Gnostics believe that they are the ones that gain the Pleroma, and that all Christians are saved that simply follow Christ regardless of denomination even if they didn't learn the true wisdom and that it's the Jews and the unrighteous wicked that are punished for rejecting the Gospel.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

It's ironic. Even Valentinian Gnostics believe that they are the ones that gain the Pleroma, and that all Christians are saved that simply follow Christ regardless of denomination even if they didn't learn the true wisdom and that it's the Jews and the unrighteous wicked that are punished for rejecting the Gospel.

True wisdom is found in the Catholic Church. One of the things I found in Catholic doctrine and standing is reason and sanity- no fanaticism and legal fictions that Protestantism is outright plagued with.

So it's not really surprising that out of all the people in this wide world who bash cults, rub evangelistic statements in people's faces, and otherwise be a bunch of weirdos happens to be Protestants.

I believe good Jews will also be saved- they just aren't the chosen people anymore, Christians are.

You can keep transgressing against me, you're just going to strike out. I'm not somebody you can push around with your biases. You need to just move on.

 

[Phantasman]

True wisdom is found in the Catholic Church. One of the things I found in Catholic doctrine and standing is reason and sanity- no fanaticism and legal fictions that Protestantism is outright plagued with.

So it's not really surprising that out of all the people in this wide world who bash cults, rub evangelistic statements in people's faces, and otherwise be a bunch of weirdos happens to be Protestants.

I believe good Jews will also be saved- they just aren't the chosen people anymore, Christians are.

You can keep transgressing against me, you're just going to strike out. I'm not somebody you can push around with your biases. You need to just move on.

Not me, my friend. I transgress no one. I just ignore those who tend to have loud boisterous spirits, and love those who realize we share a common Father that pours out his spirit over all of us the same. I study and learn so much, I just cannot commit myself to any one doctrine, though I respect most of them and can see why people follow them. I have my personal beliefs, though. But I still continue to learn.

 

[motherprayer]

Not me, my friend. I transgress no one. I just ignore those who tend to have loud boisterous spirits, and love those who realize we share a common Father that pours out his spirit over all of us the same. I study and learn so much, I just cannot commit myself to any one doctrine, though I respect most of them and can see why people follow them. I have my personal beliefs, though. But I still continue to learn.

This describes me as well Bless you friend!

 

[Norah63]

Living below in this old sin filled world,
Hardly a comfort can afford,
Needing a friend, to help me in the end,
Where could I go but to the Lord.
(that old hymn always blesses me)
It will always come down to that relationship after all is said and done.
Many thanks for all the understanding and encouragement of ourbrothers
and sisters in Christ.

 

[Phantasman]

This describes me as well Bless you friend!

And love to you, sister in Christ.

 

[Phantasman]

Living below in this old sin filled world,
Hardly a comfort can afford,
Needing a friend, to help me in the end,
Where could I go but to the Lord.
(that old hymn always blesses me)
It will always come down to that relationship after all is said and done.
Many thanks for all the understanding and encouragement of ourbrothers
and sisters in Christ.

Life here is grand with friends I love so dear
Comfort I get from God's own Word
Yet when I face the chilling hand of death
Where could I go but to the Lord

Peace be with you, Norah.

 

[Enkil]

They should just be banned from this topic. It's irritating to the point where I've had a hard time staying my tongue. I cannot stand such pompous, loudmouth nonsense.

This aptly defines your position, which is basically that you are very Catholic, while disagreeing with Catholicism, but yet you are somehow superior to Christians and are the master of the Bible... even though you disagree with the Bible.

Here, again, is what you wrote earlier:

"Some people make the mistake of thinking they are holier then others because of their theology and belief when it's really about the person's soul and relationship with God.

The Bible tells something that nobody on Earth can override, even my church, and it's that a good man has nothing to fear by God. Follow the natural law, be generous, and love, and you are secured. If that is not the case, then there is no god and we have nothing to fear anyway."

You have yet to explain where any of that is found in the Bible, or even in the catechism. You later say that the Mormon church is in cult status, probably because you cannot deny the plain position of the Catholic Church on the matter, but how does that reconcile with your view of universal salvation provided there is a belief in SOME deity? But perhaps not even that, because you said "good man." And presumably that means that all "good men" are saved, even though the Bible denies that any such person exists.

Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Perhaps you wouldn't be so upset by this if you were logically consistent, and if your holiar-than thou "I'm the uber Catholic, correcting the excesses of the evil Protestants" had a basis on some foundation. But when you don't even agree with Catholic doctrine, even this claim is shallow.

 

[motherprayer]

Proverbs 10:9 says a good man has nothing to fear by God

 

[Enkil]

Proverbs 10:9 says a good man has nothing to fear by God

Jesus says,

Joh 3:18-21 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Then let that good man come to Jesus, for outside of Christ there is no forgiveness of sins, and there is not a man in this world who is good by his own merits.

You either believe this, or you do not, but do not pretend it is not there.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

This aptly defines your position, which is basically that you are very Catholic, while disagreeing with Catholicism, but yet you are somehow superior to Christians and are the master of the Bible... even though you disagree with the Bible.

I don't disagree with Catholicism, you have just been speaking passed me and putting words in my mouth.

Here, again, is what you wrote earlier:

"Some people make the mistake of thinking they are holier then others because of their theology and belief when it's really about the person's soul and relationship with God.

The Bible tells something that nobody on Earth can override, even my church, and it's that a good man has nothing to fear by God. Follow the natural law, be generous, and love, and you are secured. If that is not the case, then there is no god and we have nothing to fear anyway."

You have yet to explain where any of that is found in the Bible, or even in the catechism.

Please show me where, anywhere in the catechism, where a person who doesn't believe in Christ is doomed for Hell.

Please tell me anywhere in the Bible where if one doesn't believe in Christ, they are doomed for Hell.

Please tell me why they should, and until you do, stop trying to sabotage my standing as a Catholic. I am two seconds away from just reporting you, because you have been outrageous on this thread to everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Catholic priests do not say that unbelievers are doomed. A person cannot be forced to believe something, it is impossible. Catholic priests are not fanatical idiots who posit such a thing as a person being doomed to Hell for something they have no control over. Perhaps it's the people that do who should meet the fire.

You later say that the Mormon church is in cult status, probably because you cannot deny the plain position of the Catholic Church on the matter, but how does that reconcile with your view of universal salvation provided there is a belief in SOME deity?

The thing is, I never said they were Christian. So there you go being a snake like you have been through this thread, being dishonest about other people's standing.

But perhaps not even that, because you said "good man." And presumably that means that all "good men" are saved, even though the Bible denies that any such person exists.

Well your certainly not, that's for sure. Your soul is black. You've openly implied that everyone except Christians are going to Hell, you know that right?
Let me speak passed you for once

Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And guess what? Believing in God makes you no better. You are living proof of that.

Perhaps you wouldn't be so upset by this if you were logically consistent

Oh, I'm logically consistent. I'm upset because there is a deranged blowhard posing as a Christian on a forum site harassing anyyone who doesn't agree with him.

 

[motherprayer]

a deranged blowhard posing as a Christian on a forum site harassing anyyone who doesn't agree with him.

Not being funny, but doesn't this describe like half the members here?

 

[Enkil]

I don't disagree with Catholicism, you have just been speaking passed me and putting words in my mouth.

You disagree with Catholicism on Mormonism, at least through part of the thread, and up to a little while ago tried to make me believe that the Mormons are trinitarians and not henotheists. I don't actually find your arguments to be consistent at all.

Please show me where, anywhere in the catechism, where a person who doesn't believe in Christ is doomed for Hell.

So now you're back to the universalist argument, just a sentence away from being an uber-Catholic.

I'll give you a twofer.

Here is the Catechism

""Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336"

Though the Catechism does make an exception for those who are ignorant of the Gospel, those who either lived in far off reaches of the world who never heard it, or those who died before Christ in the pagan world.

Now here is the Bible, the higher authority:

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Please tell me anywhere in the Bible where if one doesn't believe in Christ, they are doomed for Hell.

See above, but here's a few more:

Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Please tell me why they should, and until you do, stop trying to sabotage my standing as a Catholic.

You disagree with the Catholic Church, which I showed with direct quotations, which strangely enough made you orthodox again. But you switch in and out of orthodoxy for some reason. Whether that sabotages your standing as a Catholic is between you and the Catholic Church. I'm just your fellow Protestant, though I don't disagree with the Bible.

I am two seconds away from just reporting you, because you have been outrageous on this thread to everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Go for it, I'll just have to report all your posts about the eeeevil Protestants, and your flames against me.

Just debate the topic, you don't have to get personal with me. It was you, after all, who pulled the Catholic/Protestant card in the first place. It was you, after all, who condemned Protestants as heretics to defend Mormonism as "not necessarily non-Trinitarian." If you aren't in agreement with the Catholic Church, you opened the doorway. Not me.

Catholic priests do not say that unbelievers are doomed. A person cannot be forced to believe something, it is impossible.

I'm a Calvinist, so actually I do believe people can be forced by the irresistible power of God. But as for people trying to force people to believe, obviously that is impossible. I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with whether or not Mormonism is a Christian denomination, which you alternate between calling it as being in "cult status" while at the same time saying they will be saved, despite being outside of your church and outside of the Bible, which at the same time you also disagree with, while at the same time agreeing with it.

Catholic priests are not fanatical idiots who posit such a thing as a person being doomed to Hell for something they have no control over.

People are doomed to hell if they do not ask for forgiveness. It's a choice of either coming to Jesus Christ in faith, or rejecting Him entirely for an idol that does not hear nor save. You're flaming me as fanatical only because I believe what your church apparently believes, but more importantly I believe it because that's what the scripture says. That's certainly offensive to people of other various religions, but that is indeed the Gospel. The Good news that Christ died for us, so that we can be saved through Him. If you don't want to be saved by Christ, you have the choice to try Muhammad or Khrisna or L. Ron Hubbard to make you white as snow. The question is, which one can actually follow through? My money is on Jesus, the living God.

Perhaps it's the people that do who should meet the fire.

Tell that to the Apostles,

Gal_1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The thing is, I never said they were Christian. So there you go being a snake like you have been through this thread, being dishonest about other people's standing.

You said they would be saved based on their good works, despite not being Christians. That was the whole reason I disagreed with you in the first place.

Well your certainly not, that's for sure. Your soul is black. You've openly implied that everyone except Christians are going to Hell, you know that right?
Let me speak passed you for once

Except for the black soul part, you have accurately described my position. It's only you who thinks such a position is insulting and black. I consider it reading the sentence. Doesn't take an English major, though, in fact, I do have a degree in English.

And guess what? Believing in God makes you no better. You are living proof of that.

And the beauty of it is that I don't have to be better. I am saved by grace, and not by my own righteousness, which is nothing but a dirty rag in the sight of God.

Rom 3:22-28 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.