What Prevents The LDS From Being Saved

[Ran77]

If it wasn't an issue why was Paul addressing it?

You go ahead and limit yourself to one possibility. I don't mind.

In my experience, I know better than to second guess the intention of others. Especially those I have never met or even talked to.

You have hearkened to the words of Joseph Smith, abandoning the God of Christianity, you have failed the test that God has set, what does Christ say is the greatest commandment that all who wish to attain salvation must live by? Hear You men of Israel Yahweh is God, Yahweh alone, you shall love Yahweh with all your heart, all your soul. By following after Joseph Smith and his gods you have shown that you do not love Yahweh.

Ah, so now you are going to move on to tell me what I have done. It is amazing how easily you are able to grasp the inner thoughts of others. An amazing ability.

Now that we have reached the portion of the show where the mind reader tells other people what is in their heart I know it is time to move on. Before I go I will mention that the LDS have a wonderful love of God. And only He can judge that. When people set themselves up to judge / proclaim what is in the hearts of others I know that whatever else they say cannot be trusted.

That you deny what these verses say is why you are denied salvation

Whatever.

To the rest of you, take a look at the verses that were introduced and decide for yourself how much they have to say about salvation and the withholding of it from any group of people. You certainly don't need me to do that for you.


Adieu Progmonk

 

[Keachian]

A differing metaphysical belief of the Godhead is not a salvific issue. You said yourself in the post you just provided that they believe in a central deity.
Well, that's no different then the Father, Son, and Spirit being a central deity.

The Catholic Church is not Henotheistic, nor does it view Henotheism as Christian faith, why then would it believe that the acceptance of the existence of other gods is immaterial to salvation?

And the Bible does say that we become one with God, so they probably describe that as them becoming God.

Theosis is very different to Eternal progression and if you have any understanding of either theology then you should know this.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The Catholic Church is not Henotheistic, nor does it view Henotheism as Christian faith, why then would it believe that the acceptance of the existence of other gods is immaterial to salvation?

Both of you are transgressing against people on this thread, trying to pin them against their beliefs and how they view others.
I know the Church more then you will ever know, so you can just back off.

All I hear are criticisms and personal biases of the LDS, I don't actually see anything directly from a Mormon or a theologian of the LDS brand.
You both are preaching to the wrong people. Do it towards somebody who cares.

Everything outside of the Church is heresy by it's direct statement and standing, so the Church embracing Protestants as Christians is bit 'meh' as far as I'm concerned in relevance to all other belief systems. The Church hasn't embraced them because they simply aren't relevant. They aren't bickering at the Church trying to dance much unlike Protestants.

 

[Keachian]

You go ahead and limit yourself to one possibility. I don't mind.

In my experience, I know better than to second guess the intention of others. Especially those I have never met or even talked to.

I'll go by the evidence found in the rest of the letter;
2:8ff See to it that no one takes you captive... not according to Christ. For in him the fullness of deity dwells bodily.

Other problems that Paul was addressing were legalism; 2:18ff, and holiness in general 3-4

Ah, so now you are going to move on to tell me what I have done. It is amazing how easily you are able to grasp the inner thoughts of others. An amazing ability.

Amazingly full of baloney.

If you accept Joseph Smith's claim to prophethood and accepted his gods then this is what the Bible says that you have done, your heart may tell you otherwise but it is said that the heart above all other things is deceitful. (Jeremiah 17:9) It is desperately sick, this is why we pray to God for him to create in us clean hearts.

 

[Keachian]

Both of you are transgressing against people on this thread, trying to pin them against their beliefs and how they view others.
I know the Church more then you will ever know, so you can just back off.

I think this is somewhat of a silly position to take are you saying that if I were to go through all the motions to becoming a Catholic priest that I still wouldn't know more about the Catholic faith than you? That's something of a big ticket you have on your knowledge.

Everything outside of the Church is heresy by it's direct statement and standing, so the Church embracing Protestants as Christians is bit 'meh' as far as I'm concerned in relevance to all other belief systems. The Church hasn't embraced them because they simply aren't relevant. They aren't bickering at the Church trying to dance much unlike Protestants.

Yeah, yeah, Extra ecclesiam nulla salus, I know that your church reaches too high and makes these claims, I'd think quite a lot of the Mormons possibly also know of this tell me would we fit under the admission in CCC847 for those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ's Church?

 

[Enkil]

A differing metaphysical belief of the Godhead is not a salvific issue.

It is indeed, even according to Catholicism.

“Mormons are not Christians is the official Catholic position; specifically, the Church does not accept the validity of Mormon baptism, though she does accept the validity of non-Catholic Christian baptism” (ETWN). “Mormons are not Christians because they do not believe that Christ is God. This belief defines a Christian” (ETWN).

"Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either." (ETWN). “Those who deny the doctrine of the Holy Trinity deny that Christ is God. Now if one denies that Christ is God, he is denying an essential aspect of Christianity" (ETWN).

Comparing Mormonism

"If anyone denies that the Father is eternal, that the Son is eternal, and that the Holy Spirit is eternal: he is a heretic.If anyone says that the Son made flesh was not in heaven with the Father while He was on earth: he is a heretic.If anyone denies that the Holy Spirit has all power and knows all things, and is everywhere, just as the Father and the Son: he is a heretic." (Pope Damascus I, at the Council of Rome 383 AD).

"232 Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"53 Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."54

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1

Paul warns against following a different Jesus than the one they preached. The LDS denies the Trinity utterly, and preach an entirely different Jesus.

You said yourself in the post you just provided that they believe in a central deity.

Right, and they are polytheists who believe in many gods, including the idea that they will become gods.

Well, that's no different then the Father, Son, and Spirit being a central deity.

Except they don't consider the Son and Spirit to be central deities. They are separate deities.

And the Bible does say that we become one with God, so they probably describe that as them becoming God.

Please do some research on what Mormonism actually teaches before making these comments. There is no confusion here. The basis of the LDS is that they will become gods, as god himself was once just a man, as clearly stated by Joseph Smith.

You have an unhealthy contempt for LDS,

You have an unhealthy contempt for Protestants, because it took me mentioning Catholic teaching on the matter for you to suddenly turn all orthodox on me, and blaming Protestants for the Mormons you were blessing just a few posts prior. You were not far from a universalist a bit ago.

 

[Phantasman]

Back on track:

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Don't see any church denomination specific.

 

[Enkil]

Don't see any church denomination specific.

You wouldn't have to, especially since the LDS denies the scripture in question anyway, as I showed earlier.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

It is indeed, even according to Catholicism.

“Mormons are not Christians is the official Catholic position; specifically, the Church does not accept the validity of Mormon baptism, though she does accept the validity of non-Catholic Christian baptism” (ETWN). “Mormons are not Christians because they do not believe that Christ is God. This belief defines a Christian” (ETWN).

"Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either." (ETWN). “Those who deny the doctrine of the Holy Trinity deny that Christ is God. Now if one denies that Christ is God, he is denying an essential aspect of Christianity" (ETWN).

Well if you labor under that technicality to bash Mormonism, and by a church that deems your beliefs heretical, then you have a real issue in desperately bashing Mormonism and being a nuisance to others who don't share your contempt.

Paul warns against following a different Jesus than the one they preached. The LDS denies the Trinity utterly, and preach an entirely different Jesus.

Like the Jesus who preaches imputed righteousness™?

Right, and they are polytheists who believe in many gods, including the idea that they will become gods.

If they believe in a central deity, then by definition, they cannot be polytheists.
It is obvious that their use of context of 'gods' isn't the same you perceive it.

Please do some research on what Mormonism actually teaches before making these comments.

I have been, and generally speaking, I see a whole lot of myths and hearsay about LDS.
They do not consider themselves polytheists. I'll take the word from an actual Mormon before I take the word of somebody who has a bias against them.

You have an unhealthy contempt for Protestants, because it took me mentioning Catholic teaching on the matter for you to suddenly turn all orthodox on me, and blaming Protestants for the Mormons you were blessing just a few posts prior.

Protestants don't know how to do anything except tell God what they want His words to say and pretty much be a nuisance to just about every single person on planet Earth who doesn't like it.
So my contempt is well founded.

You were not far from a universalist a bit ago.

I believe Protestants are universalists in denial of being universalists, so you can go ahead and either reinterpret what I've stated or retract hat statement.

 

[Enkil]

Well if you labor under that technicality to bash Mormonism,

It is not a technicality. Your church teaches that the faith of all Christians is based upon the trinity, straight out of the catechism.

...and by a church that deems your beliefs heretical, then you have a real issue in desperately bashing Mormonism and being a nuisance to others who don't share your contempt.

Apparently you didn't notice that I was turning your own arguments against you. You claim to be a member of that church, and you are disagreeing with your churches' teaching while claiming that you were only posting to point out that Protestants are also heretical, even though that wasn't mentioned in your first posts in this thread. Thus you bash me for using Catholicsm against you, while you were using Catholicism against me, despite disagreeing with Catholicism yourself. It's a vicious circle.

Like the Jesus who preaches imputed righteousness™?

If you want to have a debate on justification without works vs works+faith, how about you setup a thread on that. Just send me the link. Naturally, I disagree with you.

But Catholicism, so far as the topic of the thread is concerned, agrees with me. If you are going to claim that the Catholic Church has the true Jesus, why are you disagreeing with the Catholic Church on Mormonism and the Trinity?

It seems to me you like to use Catholicism as a weapon, but you don't follow Catholicism as a religion.

If they believe in a central deity, then by definition, they cannot be polytheists.

By definition, you don't know what the difference is between the definitions of polytheism, monotheism and henotheism. Do Mormons believe in the existence of many gods? Yes. Do Mormons believe in the existence of only one God? No. Do Mormons believe in the existence of many Gods, but with a focus on a central deity? Yes.

hen·o·the·ism   [hen-uh-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
the worship of a particular god, as by a family or tribe, without disbelieving in the existence of others.


mon·o·the·ism   [mon-uh-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
the doctrine or belief that there is only one God.

pol·y·the·ism   [pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm, pol-ee-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

Compare that to the quotations I provided straight from Mormon sources, and you tell me which one actually fits.

They do not consider themselves polytheists.

So what? Their belief in a plurality of gods is well known.

I'll take the word from an actual Mormon before I take the word of somebody who has a bias against them.

Great, because I quoted the founder of their religion, as well as their holy books and an Apostle. You can find even more on their teachings of salvation on my first post in the thread, back on the second page. Or just google the references.

Protestants don't know how to do anything except tell God what they want

What's with this "Protestants" things when you are disagreeing with Catholicism? Doesn't that make you a Protestant too? But, I guess, if Mormons aren't henotheists because they say so, then you can still be a super Catholic.

I believe Protestants are universalists in denial of being universalists, so you can go ahead and either reinterpret what I've stated or retract hat statement.

I believe that the number of pizzas that can fit on a roof is Purple, because Aliens don't wear hats. Now you can go ahead and either reinterpret what I've stated or retract that statement.

 

[Phantasman]

It always amazes me when you can tell when someone speaks with spiritual understanding.

Well orated, SilenceInMotion.

 

[Ran77]

Back on track:

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Don't see any church denomination specific.

Excellent quotes. I think that hits the point I was hoping to make quite well. Thanks.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

It always amazes me when you can tell when someone speaks with spiritual understanding.

Well orated, SilenceInMotion.

Thanks, I needed that boost

People who go out of their way to condemn something typically end up resembling lawgivers and line dividers. They have to dig in every single thing until what they don't like is fully demonized, presupposing that they are more righteous all the same simply because they have put up a certain flag.
And to attack other Christians, not even being able to state a truth without milking lies from it, amplifies the bad ground that they stand on.

Jesus has a name for that, and it's called 'white sepulcher'. Many of Catholic priests teach that even an atheist can enter Heaven if they are good and wise, and follow the natural law. So when it comes to a good Mormon vs someone who fits the description above, well, you see how I do the math

 

[motherprayer]

This certainly reminds me of the debates between Calvinists and non-Calvinists over on GT.

The Calvinist says: This is what we believe.

The non-Calvinist says: Well this is what WE believe you believe, therefore what YOU believe must be wrong.

Sigh lol

 

[Keachian]

This certainly reminds me of the debates between Calvinists and non-Calvinists over on GT.

The Calvinist says: This is what we believe.

The non-Calvinist says: Well this is what WE believe you believe, therefore what YOU believe must be wrong.

Sigh lol

Except Ran hasn't exactly been forthright in correcting what I understand LDS faith, he has merely stated that my understanding is wrong and left it at that.

 

[motherprayer]

Except Ran hasn't exactly been forthright in correcting what I understand LDS faith, he has merely stated that my understanding is wrong and left it at that.

Ah, that's actually part of what reminds me about it though. Lol I love my Calvy buddies and all, but I can understand why after awhile they get tired of restating their beliefs over and over again. At some point it just becomes easier to say "You are wrong" and allow the other, if they are so inclined, to do their own research.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Ah, that's actually part of what reminds me about it though. Lol I love my Calvy buddies and all, but I can understand why after awhile they get tired of restating their beliefs over and over again. At some point it just becomes easier to say "You are wrong" and allow the other, if they are so inclined, to do their own research.

Lol, Calvinism is up there with Roman Catholicism when it comes to having to explain their beliefs over and over and over.

Sometimes I'll get tired of it to and be like 'your wrong' and just direct them to the Catholic Encyclopedia

 

[Phantasman]

Except Ran hasn't exactly been forthright in correcting what I understand LDS faith, he has merely stated that my understanding is wrong and left it at that.

The point being Ran's ability to correct what you understand. As I have alluded to, there are many in different churches that represent the beliefs of their doctrines differently. I've known Ran through this forum, and can attest that he is a friend in spirit, regardless of his doctrine. You read many other statements from sites that may not portray the belief Ran has of the LDS, but that someone else has said they do, and you automatically associate Ran to the hearsay.

When I lived in Provo, Utah, I met my share of Mormons. There were the good, kind, following Jesus type and there were the egotistical, polygamy style old folks similar to snake handlers. Now Christians have to accept that they have people out there that drink lye and kiss poisonous snakes. Do they say that they aren't Christians? Likewise, the Mormons have their estranged believers that still follow polygamy. Is the church going to deny them being Mormon? No, but as the snake handlers, the unlearned have something to talk about, to bash the religion that it has to live with, no matter how hard it tries to clean up it's act. And the OT was no different.

Since Ran has been here, he has never attacked another persons religious belief that I have seen. But boy, have the (so called) Christians torn him apart every time he has made a statement or started a thread. Kind of makes one wonder if he would even consider being a (so called) Christian, if that is one is like. I think he's a better person where he is.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Since Ran has been here, he has never attacked another persons religious belief that I have seen. But boy, have the (so called) Christians torn him apart every time he has made a statement or started a thread. Kind of makes one wonder if he would even consider being a (so called) Christian, if that is one is like. I think he's a better person where he is.

The reason I defend Mormonism is because when a Protestant attacks them, I see something rather detestable at work.

The Church deems Protestants Christians in that they are heretical through no fault of their own.
So to see traditional Christianity extend it's hand to Protestants while they bash the sects indirectly resulted from their own church's dissension, I just see a pompous hypocrisy.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The reason I defend Mormonism is because when a Protestant attacks them, I see something rather detestable at work.

The Church deems Protestants Christians in that they are heretical through no fault of their own.
So to see traditional Christianity extend it's hand to Protestants while they bash the sects indirectly resulted from their own church's dissension, I just see a pompous hypocrisy.

Your Church does not deem the LDS to be Christians. Why is that?