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What predictions does Intelligent Design make?

Hespera

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Saved by- you would have more luck debating if you didnt think snarky insults were part of debate.

>>>>>>>This is my area of research and I will debate this all my life or until it is throughly falsified.<<<<<<<<<

It is hard to believe that this is your "area of research", but you are sentancing yourself to immortality if you plan to do it till evolution has been falsified.
 
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sbvera13

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[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]A snake would be a good study because of the ability to unhinge the jaw; it would be interesting to see precursors of this mechanism.
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How about this: I can unhinge my jaw at will. I have a apparent mutation that allows me to open my jaw far enough for the mandibulare condyle to actually slip out of the gelnoid fossa- this is a textbook case of a dislocated joint. I can do it at will, it causes no pain, and required no training. I've been able to do this as long as I can remember.

There's an example of how a precursor to this funciton could form, and in a mammal no less (aka, me).
 
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Naraoia

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Progression from a simpler creature to a more complex creature is not evidence of intelligent design though, it can be said that there's a competitive advantage gained in the higher complexity of the organism, and therefore that's why more complex organisms are the evolutionary predecessors of less complex creatures.
Or that it's easier to produce a successful creature by adding something than by taking something away in most cases, because a large proportion of what the creature has is necessary for its fitness in some way. (I wonder if that idea actually works, it just seems right at the moment :))

By the same token by looking at a fossil skeketon at what point is it classified as a fish and not some other creature?
Oh, I think some people could spill blood over questions like that. It's an unfortunate effect of evolution: organisms don't just jump into new, discrete taxonomic groups, instead, they change gradually. Hence transitional forms, hence blurry boundaries. There's no well-defined "point", there's black at one end, white at the other, and all shades of grey in between.

So it's open to interpretation? There is no definitive answer this is a fish and this is not?
"Fish" is an arbitrary category imposed on nature by humans. Humans like pigeonholing. It's how we make sense of the world.

If everyone could agree on what traits make something a fish or a tetrapod, then maybe there would be a definitive answer. But that would still be declaring that this shade of grey shall be considered black.

Yes it predicts design for a specific habitat.
What does that mean? Do the following creatures fulfil that prediction?

A tuna, who must spend massive amounts of energy on drinking seawater and getting rid of the excess salt because its blood isn't half as concentrated as seawater and it leaks continuously by osmosis?

(For things like salmon, you could say that they must achieve a compromise between freshwater breeding grounds and their adult habitats, but to my knowledge, tuna don't go into streams)

A dolphin, who, besides having the same problem with water, must surface regularly because it can't breathe underwater?

A fruit fly, who lives its entire larval and pupal life in rotting fruits but can be stressed or killed by temperatures commonly found in them? [paper]

So by that logic I would say if we have that much trouble defining creatures we have full access to how much more difficult trying to form relationships from bones alone?
Oh, I think I know what you're getting at. Unfortunately, (1) bones can be quite diagnostic, at least at the higher levels of classification like fish vs. tetrapod, (2) it's not so much a question of forming relationships, it's more which branches of a given family tree should be included in Tetrapoda or Aves or whatever. Can you see the difference?

(N.B. I'm not saying determining relationships is easy. I think there are still debates over which fishapod is closest to actual tetrapods and things like that. However, that part of taxonomy is far less arbitrary than putting names on the resulting trees. For one thing, the tree-building is often done with very fancy statistical methods that are known to be fairly good at finding evolutionary trees, while the putting the names bit is, well, pure, subjective human judgement.)

Also if we based modern species on skeletons alone it would seriously reduce the number of species none to us.
Yes, and your point? Morphological species are also just boxes that help us make sense of the fossil record. It's irrelevant how many species of some fossil creature we recognise. The data and the patterns in it remain the same whether we call a particular skeleton Homo erectus or H. ergaster.

Do you think if we took all modern dogs known to us and buried the skeletons in different strata and then dug them up we would say they were the same species and able to interbreed?
No, but that's irrelevant.
 
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All predictions of ID are related to irreducible complexity. If a organism is IC it cannot be broken down therefore removing one componant or system causes the entire breakdown of the system.

The one exception to this is the "wing" of ID that is r/t the existance of the human soul. Dr. Beauregard deals with this in his book "The Spritual Brian" 2007
 
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ragarth

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The one exception to this is the "wing" of ID that is r/t the existance of the human soul. Dr. Beauregard deals with this in his book "The Spritual Brian" 2007

That sounds like a fun book. :) I really love neuroscience, I may need to snag a copy and see what the other side thinks of the relevance of hopfields to the amygdala.

edit: On 2nd thought, the book is rubbish, riddled with logical fallacies and basic math errors that any real scientist would commit seppuku over: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/10/the_spiritual_brain.php
 
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That sounds like a fun book. :) I really love neuroscience, I may need to snag a copy and see what the other side thinks of the relevance of hopfields to the amygdala.

edit: On 2nd thought, the book is rubbish, riddled with logical fallacies and basic math errors that any real scientist would commit seppuku over:


So based on one guys opinion (who has serious reading comprehension problems) from a blog, you choose not to read a book?

I suspect Dr. Beauregard knows what he is talking about r/t neuroscience since he is an expert in his field and heads up a neuroscience institute.

You do not have to read the book, obviously, but I will attest to the fact that if that blog is all you have read about Dr. Beauregard then you are ill informed on his expertise and knowledge on ID!!
 
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shernren

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The one exception to this is the "wing" of ID that is r/t the existance of the human soul. Dr. Beauregard deals with this in his book "The Spritual Brian" 2007

What about Bobs? Do they get to be spiritual too? Or is this a Monty Python homage piece? :D
 
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ragarth

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So based on one guys opinion (who has serious reading comprehension problems) from a blog, you choose not to read a book?

I suspect Dr. Beauregard knows what he is talking about r/t neuroscience since he is an expert in his field and heads up a neuroscience institute.

You do not have to read the book, obviously, but I will attest to the fact that if that blog is all you have read about Dr. Beauregard then you are ill informed on his expertise and knowledge on ID!!

It's not the only review of the book I read, but the one that was the most fun to read. I quote:

"The average neuron, consisting of about 100,000 molecules, is about 80 percent water. The brain is home to about 100 billion such cells and thus about 1015 molecules. Each neuron gets 10,000 or so connections from other cells in the brain."

As that review pointed out, the math is wrong, that should be 10^16, and the claim here is indeed 10 molecules to the synapse, assuming the rest of the cell is made of nothing but warm, fuzzy feelings. This is just the tip of the iceberg for this book. One of many, many, rudimentary problems. This is not saying anything about Dr. Beauregard, this is saying volumes about his book. It could be his editor, publisher, or perhaps he had a ghost writer for the text, but the text itself is bunk.

edit: Let's face it, you may have an amazing theory, something truly stupendous and earth shattering, but if your publication of it is of the type that should be flushed down the toilet, it'll be far harder to get it accepted because it'll be less intelligible and ergo less trust worthy. Perhaps his next publication on the subject will be better.
 
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What about Bobs? Do they get to be spiritual too? Or is this a Monty Python homage piece? :D

Okay, I get it. You are funny, and I do not disagree with what I have seen so far but was there a point I was suppose to get out of that r/t what I was saying?
 
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It's not the only review of the book I read, but the one that was the most fun to read. I quote:

"The average neuron, consisting of about 100,000 molecules, is about 80 percent water. The brain is home to about 100 billion such cells and thus about 1015 molecules. Each neuron gets 10,000 or so connections from other cells in the brain."

As that review pointed out, the math is wrong, that should be 10^16, and the claim here is indeed 10 molecules to the synapse, assuming the rest of the cell is made of nothing but warm, fuzzy feelings. This is just the tip of the iceberg for this book. One of many, many, rudimentary problems. This is not saying anything about Dr. Beauregard, this is saying volumes about his book. It could be his editor, publisher, or perhaps he had a ghost writer for the text, but the text itself is bunk.

edit: Let's face it, you may have an amazing theory, something truly stupendous and earth shattering, but if your publication of it is of the type that should be flushed down the toilet, it'll be far harder to get it accepted because it'll be less intelligible and ergo less trust worthy. Perhaps his next publication on the subject will be better.

This is not the first time I read that review. It is the first review everyone that wants to criticize the book posts. I want you to note the unprofessional nature of the review. PZ Meyers appears to quote the book several times but he fails to give a page # or even chapter of the book. I attempt to look up what it is he is referring to to see if he is taking the quotes out of context but cannot find it. This review would not pass a basic biology 101 class~~do you really want to trust his opinion on a neuroscientist when he cannot even write at the level of a college freshman? The only logical conclusion is that he fails to cite his claims because he has an agenda. As a matter of fact PZ Meyers has an agenda because he is an outspoken critique of anything ID related. You can trust him to think for him if you like but...again, it is an error on your part. A significant error because the scientific inquiry into the possibility of the human soul would be paramount in understanding the human condition.
 
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Skaloop

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This is not the first time I read that review. It is the first review everyone that wants to criticize the book posts. I want you to note the unprofessional nature of the review. PZ Meyers appears to quote the book several times but he fails to give a page # or even chapter of the book. I attempt to look up what it is he is referring to to see if he is taking the quotes out of context but cannot find it. This review would not pass a basic biology 101 class~~do you really want to trust his opinion on a neuroscientist when he cannot even write at the level of a college freshman? The only logical conclusion is that he fails to cite his claims because he has an agenda. As a matter of fact PZ Meyers has an agenda because he is an outspoken critique of anything ID related. You can trust him to think for him if you like but...again, it is an error on your part. A significant error because the scientific inquiry into the possibility of the human soul would be paramount in understanding the human condition.

You know why the review is unprofessional in nature? Because it's not a professional review! It's not meant for even a biology 101 class, it's meant for his informal personal blog.
 
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ragarth

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You know why the review is unprofessional in nature? Because it's not a professional review! It's not meant for even a biology 101 class, it's meant for his informal personal blog.

This.

And scientific inquiry into the human soul is like inquiring about the taste of strawberries inside an orange. It doesn't happen. The soul is not quantifiable, it's not measurable, and anything explainable with a soul is explainable with brain matter, unless you want to argue the hopfield neural network I have installed on my computer has a modicum of a soul.

edit: I pulled my logs and grabbed the other two reviews I read, one summarizes the chapters. It's biased but that's okay, I was looking for information about it's quality, not information about whether I agree with the premise of the book:

http://www.denverseminary.edu/article/the-spiritual-brain/

The 2nd is long and dry, but informative:

http://occamsshavingcream.blogspot.com/2008/06/spiritual-brain-book-review-chapter-1.html

There you go. That's three reviews. A seminary seems to think it's a great book, but the other two agree it's full of basic errors that invalidate it's points. There was one other review I tossed because it was done by the co-author, and so the fellow was obligated to effectively say 'This books is awesome concentrated into heroin.'

I understand this means that 2 of my three reviews were biased against the premise of the book. That's fine, I don't care about whether or not I'd agree with it, but I'm not going to spend cash on a poorly written book, even if I agreed with the premise.
 
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You know why the review is unprofessional in nature? Because it's not a professional review! It's not meant for even a biology 101 class, it's meant for his informal personal blog.

I am aware of this and pointed it out as another reason for disregarding the blog and reviewing the book for yourself.

The book is profound and eyeopening and should be reviewed by everyone interested in the spritual aspect of ID or anyone interesting in the possibility of the existance of the human soul.
 
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ragarth

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I am aware of this and pointed it out as another reason for disregarding the blog and reviewing the book for yourself.

The book is profound and eyeopening and should be reviewed by everyone interested in the spritual aspect of ID or anyone interesting in the possibility of the existance of the human soul.

To me, the book is classified as opposition publication. I'd be reading it to compare it's views to me own and critically challenging it while at the same time using it to critically challenge my own ideas. I am, at the moment, nose deep into another bit of opposition publication: The Arrogance of Humanism, by David Ehrenfeld.
 
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