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What predictions does Intelligent Design make?

plindboe

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Well Peter, I disagree. This is not a matter of proving ID but merely a matter of testing a hypothesis. The hypothesis that "system A" (the interlocking biochemical complexity of a reevolved lactose system, specifically the lac operon of E. coli ) is IC. IC is an important part of ID~~which I hope I do not have to go into the history of "why." If IC can be established then one of the tenents of evolution is challenged and a natural conclusion would be that a preprogamming had occured~~an intelligent preprogramming. I would challenge you to come up with some alternative theory to ID if IC could be established.

Showing that a structure couldn't have evolved by darwinian evolution doesn't mean an intelligence created it, it simply means that it didn't evolve by darwinian evolution. Again you're playing Go.... I mean ID-of-the-gaps, by saying that if I can't come up with alternate theories then yours win by default.

ID is proposing a false dichotomy, exclaiming that it automatically follows if another theory fails. No one seems to be able to propose any independent ID test to test whether the theory is valid. It's a parasite on the TOE. Of course it has to be, as ID isn't science, and is beyond testing, unlike evolution.

Btw, if you want an alternate theory-> saltation. Want more?

Peter :)
 
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Hespera

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"poof"
Originally Posted by Hespera
This is the same problem i have with the idea that first God could poof into existence, and then he could turn around and poof all this other stuff into existence.

>>>>>>>Back to the "wishful thinking" that I mentioned before. I share this wishful thinking at a "gut" level~~It may not be very scientific but imagining the entire universe and all living matter arising from nowhere seems an absurdity. The mechanism of evolution itself (especicially at the genetic level) is a fantastic system that seems far to complex and mechanical to simply have arisen from nothingness.<<<


the mechanism of evolution doesnt seem too complex, to me anyway; but how it seems and how it is are of course not the same thing, necessarily.
Well I have problems with "poofing" as well but with a slightly (maybe not so slightly) different take on things.

I believe we have been instructed by God (I will not attempt to define God as to avoid insulting people and would refuse to debate it) as to our design at a very basic level and were informed that He is from a different dimension which in Biblical times was referred to as a different realm. This is a realm with different laws of nature and God is not confined by our laws of nature or even our sense/concept of time. No poofing needed~~:) that is the best smiley face I can do given I am still a restriced newbie.

Now if you have the scientific mind I suspect you have you are thinking "wow, this guy is really reaching right now" (to put it politely). I will reassure you my belief system is the result of years and years of study in religion, science, and mysticism (in that order). I find it almost comical when scientists attempt to argue for a universe where nothing but the material exists.<<<<<<<


Hey I like you, you make some good points.

As for other dimensions, well, I am ready to accept that, have been since i read 'flatland" when i was 12. (good book if you have not read it)!

If you like i will send you a really cool link to a video on the subject of the dimensions.

I have the idea that there could be, probably is all sorts of stuff that we totally cant grasp, like the two dimensional guy in flatland trying to understand three dimensions.

Like a house cat trying to understand calculus. We are just people after all...

What it it turns out that from the 10th dimension any fool can make a universe, and a bunch of them have?

for me, tho, whether the universe was god-poofed or some other way, evolution proceeded as generally described, over a course of a good many millions of years. didnt need any help or guidance, it runs itself. Kind of like a river valley just forms itself with water and rock and sand, no blueprint needed.
 
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Forum Cruiser

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I dont doubt that ID theory is changing or evolving. What ID theory lacks is even one (1) data point to work with.


When you bring in spiritual, and "soul" you identify ID as being solidly in the same camp with the astral projection folks, imho. Sorry. There is no metaphysical argument in or contribution to jet propulsion, and no ID data there either. What work can be done with zero data?

A lot of people have claimed evidence for the soul, as have many proved who jack the Ripper was, or to have many to see the Loch Ness Monster.

Likewise you can say that "We are duely (sic) created, one part material and one part spiritual". That is just stating an opinoin but you are stating it as fact and using it as a premise.

Anyhow... . ID needs data. It doesnt have any. How does anyone get past that and still afford it credibility? I dont see how a person with intellectual honesty can do that.

That is because you "see" things very different from me. You function under a very different paradigm likely with virtually every observation you make. I understand your paradigm but I am not certain you understand mine. Currently I cannot post links but I will give you examples you may be familiar with. When viewing the virtual reality representation of the functioning cell I do not see random unguided actions I see what appears to me to be a design in process. When reviewing the theory behind the origins of all matter (energy converted to matter) I do not see happenstance I see a plan unfolding. When contemplating the origination of life on earth I am willing to accept the idea of seeding with predesign.

This is not about being intellectually honest it is about ones belief system. To expand on this; if you were to tell me we evolved from ape like creature I would respond "thank you for your opinion" because just like me you cannot say with certainty you know how we came into existence. In other words, from my perspective I am not the only one giving my opinion here and my opinion is not the only one that requires a certain level of faith.

Now, I want you to keep in mind responding to me with a variation of "well I happen to know my belief system is better then yours" would be a repeating of mistakes mankind has been making throughout history. Consider that, in spite of your obvious scientific backing, intelligence, and sincerity you may be wrong~~you very well could be wrong. I honestly believe you are wrong~~no offense intended. I realize I could also be wrong.
 
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Split Rock

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Hi Cruiser :wave:
When viewing the virtual reality representation of the functioning cell I do not see random unguided actions I see what appears to me to be a design in process.
Neither do I. Cells do not function via "random unguided actions." They operate in accordance with the genetic code that dictates what cells do. Cells are in a sense "designed"... by evolution (primarily Natural Selection), not by an intelligence.


When reviewing the theory behind the origins of all matter (energy converted to matter) I do not see happenstance I see a plan unfolding.
That has little to do with evolution.. but OK.


When contemplating the origination of life on earth I am willing to accept the idea of seeding with predesign.
OK, but do you have any physical evidence to back that idea up?


This is not about being intellectually honest it is about ones belief system. To expand on this; if you were to tell me we evolved from ape like creature I would respond "thank you for your opinion" because just like me you cannot say with certainty you know how we came into existence.
We know what the preponderance of the evidence points to... and that is common ancestry of man and other apes. It is hardly an equal opinion to yours, at least in terms of science. In science, not all ideas bear equal weight.


In other words, from my perspective I am not the only one giving my opinion here and my opinion is not the only one that requires a certain level of faith.
Again, not all oipinions in science bear equal weight.

I continue to be amazed how consistant you creationists have become in denigrading the term "faith." Your "faith" in Creationism, is not the same as my "faith" in evolution. The former is based on religious belief and perhaps philosophy, while the latter is based on what the physical evidence points to.


Now, I want you to keep in mind responding to me with a variation of "well I happen to know my belief system is better then yours" would be a repeating of mistakes mankind has been making throughout history.
First of all, science is not a "belief system." Secondly, it is not a question of which idea on the origin of mankind is better. "Better" is a subjective term. My point is that history has shown us that science is the best tool we have for understanding the natural and physical world around us. The only scientific theory that explains the origin of our species, and has resisted all attempts to falsify it, is evolution. Period.


Consider that in spite of your obvious scientific backing, intelligence, and sincerity you may be wrong~~you very well could be wrong. I honestly believe you are wrong~~no offense intended. I realize I could also be wrong.
Its nice to hear a creationist admit he could be wrong. Could evolution be wrong? It is possible... not likely, but possible. If evolution was falsified tommorrow, I would abandon it. Will evolution ever be replaced by ID? Not likley. Not as long as ID remains a philosophical idea, rather than science.
 
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Naraoia

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I see you did some homework...
I'm a scientist in training. That's my job ;)

I cannot say I have ever heard Dr. Behe state it but I suspect that he believes his strongest arguments lie with the idea of genetic manipulation (via intelligent intervention) as opposed to simply the magical appearance of organisms/systems.
Ok, where was the genetic manipulation in this?

Dr. Behe notes the need for an artificial inducer IPTG in order to produce Hall's results. The two noted evolutionary mutations required this inducer in order for the beneficial adaptations to occur. IPTG was injected in the medium which (according to Dr. Behe) is not something that would ever occur in nature. I am certain you can follow the logic from here. The mutations were a direct result of intelligent intervention thereby reinforcing the idea that adaptation occurs only with significant intervention. The systems studied will not function (much less display advantagious adaptations) without several other pre-existing components and significant manipulation.
I follow the logic, but I still don't agree. I hope you can follow my logic in turn. First, the most important idea necessary to understand the situation:

E. coli normally eat glucose for energy. They'll keep the lac operon switched off even if there is lactose around so long as glucose is also present. (I think that's because lactose is a disaccharide, and to get energy from it they first have to break it into glucose + galactose, while glucose they can just use as it is)

Presumably, they could eat glucose before they could eat lactose. In any case, let's assume they got the abilities in that order.

Given that the glucose-only bacteria would die without a source of glucose, they would not live in glucose-limited environments. (Just like the &#916;galactosidase mutants would not live in the IPTG-free medium). Which means they would not need a lac operon to survive where they normally lived.

The ability to digest lactose in this situation is an extra: not essential under "normal" circumstances, but allows the bacteria to explore new habitats or (more likely in the beginning) to get through shortages with more success. But this ability would only be selected in the right environment. Which also includes that the bacteria would have to survive there in the first place. It could be a normally glucose-rich place with lactose also present.

What Hall did was not "genetic manipulation" (I gather he had no idea what the mutations were until he examined the lactose-digesting mutants), but providing the right environment! It was a simulation of what could just as easily happen in nature (not in the specific components, maybe, but the general situation of bacteria barely being able to survive, and an as yet inaccessible nutrient available in plenty).

As for the permease problem, E. coli lac permease belongs to a family of proteins that also transport a variety of other related molecules. In the evolution of the original lac operon, the permease could have come from a gene duplication. Whether the permease or the galactosidase appeared first (likely as a protein that originally did other jobs and just happened to be able to deal with lactose as a byproduct, like Hall's ebg), the evolution of the other would have given the critters an advantage in glucose-limited environments.

I'm pretty sure the sophisticated regulation of the lac operon came last; so the original operon would have been switched on as a whole, and probably switched on regardless of the presence of glucose or lactose, and the permease would not have been independently regulated of the galactosidase - therefore no need for the regulatory function of the galactosidase. Regulation would have been an additional step to ensure that the cell does not waste energy on lactose metabolism when it can manage in other ways.

The point of this mental exercise is that the need for IPTG is a feature of the experimental setup (in which the pre-existing system depended on a regulator to express the permease), not an absolute requirement for the appearance of a lac operon.

Also, look again at the citrate-digesting E. coli. To my knowledge, they got nothing but citrate to stimulate them. It took them over 30 000 generations (rather longer than Hall's experiments, I think, though a digital copy of the original paper doesn't seem to exist), but they figured it out.

I will read between the lines a bit but I cannot help but note during several reading of Dr. Behe on this subject that Dr. Behe implies that certain beneficial mutations can occur in E. coli given the right circumstances; but these changes may very well be preprogrammed or selected to occur under the correct conditions. I would not be surprised if this train of thought was applicable to all living organisms. This really is significant because it IS an alternative paradigm to materialistic evolution.
No, it's only an alternative paradigm to the randomness of mutations with respect to fitness, as I don't see why adaptive mutation necessarily implies a "non-materialistic" source.

What is "materialistic evolution" anyway?

Back to the "wishful thinking" that I mentioned before. I share this wishful thinking at a "gut" level~~It may not be very scientific but imagining the entire universe and all living matter arising from nowhere seems an absurdity.
A lot of things in science seem an absurdity. I mean, gravity can bend light???

Yes, it can. That doesn't mean gravity is a supernatural force, just that common sense isn't always the best guide to the natural world.

Oh, and the "I can't imagine" argument says more about your imagination than the thing you can't imagine.

The mechanism of evolution itself (especicially at the genetic level) is a fantastic system that seems far to complex and mechanical to simply have arisen from nothingness.
What nothingness, and in what ways is it too complex? Just asking because evolutionary biology is going to be my degree in a year and a half, and I haven't seen any such sign so far.
 
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Hespera

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Quote, forumcruise..>>>>>That is because you "see" things very different from me. You function under a very different paradigm likely with virtually every observation you make. I understand your paradigm but I am not certain you understand mine. Currently I cannot post links but I will give you examples you may be familiar with. When viewing the virtual reality representation of the functioning cell I do not see random unguided actions I see what appears to me to be a design in process. When reviewing the theory behind the origins of all matter (energy converted to matter) I do not see happenstance I see a plan unfolding. When contemplating the origination of life on earth I am willing to accept the idea of seeding with predesign.

This is not about being intellectually honest it is about ones belief system. To expand on this; if you were to tell me we evolved from ape like creature I would respond "thank you for your opinion" because just like me you cannot say with certainty you know how we came into existence. In other words, from my perspective I am not the only one giving my opinion here and my opinion is not the only one that requires a certain level of faith.

Now, I want you to keep in mind responding to me with a variation of "well I happen to know my belief system is better then yours" would be a repeating of mistakes mankind has been making throughout history. Consider that, in spite of your obvious scientific backing, intelligence, and sincerity you may be wrong~~you very well could be wrong. I honestly believe you are wrong~~no offense intended. I realize I could also be wrong. <<<<<<<<<


well there you see? a lot of words but not one piece of data. None.

As for understanding how i see things, no, you dont. As your next couple sentences showed.

Random, no, unguided, maybe, depends what you mean. Things are 'guided' in what they do by the forces acting on them.

Lets put aside for the moment HOW the universe and its laws got here. i figure one theory on that is about as good as another since we have zero data that i am aware of.

But... once you have matter, and the principles that govern it, things will take care of themselves in all sorts of remarkable ways.

i mentioned flowing water carving an elaborate watershed. No guiding hand needed. Not random at all, it is very mathmatical and orderly; it is as it is because it had to be that way.

evolution of living things works the same way, imho.

I would not say that people evolved from other apes as a fact, unless peaking in a shorthand way. Evolution is a theory, not a proven fact. that is the nature of science, for me to not understand that would mean i dont know very much.
It isnt my opinion tho. Its a very strong theory backed by an immense body of data and no effort to falsify it has made any inroads whatever.


As for "my belief system is better than yours.."

i dont think it is intellectually honest to give any credit to ideas like ID when there is absolutely not one scrap of evidnece to support it, not one data point. To give it preference over another idea that does have a vast data base is your choice but its not an intellectual one. its an emotional one.

The best emotionally satisfying answer wont work for me in calculus. wont work anywhere in math or science.


As for the willingness to accept that i could be wrong... I only see that as a problem for religion not for science. Religion is based in revealed immutable pure Truth. Science is "this is what I think i see as now things seem to me to be".

Science is built on the power of falsifying the old theories. If i ever get so old and fossilized that i think that ANYTHING in science is "truth" and "fact", I hope I will put my teeth in the jar and speak no more of matters scientific.
 
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Hespera

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I would agree that ID does not qualify as a falsifiable hypothesis. It's not a hypothesis because it's an observation of the obvious, and it's not falsifiable because it's true. :)

is there some other "observation of the obvious" that isnt falsifiable or does that one stand unique in the universe?

Do you have an ordinary everyday example that we could all agree is obvious?
 
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ragarth

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I would agree that ID does not qualify as a falsifiable hypothesis. It's not a hypothesis because it's an observation of the obvious, and it's not falsifiable because it's true. :)

Observation is falsifiable, since ID cannot be falsified by any of the 5 senses or technological means, it's not observation or a hypothesis.

Truth, in science, is falsifiable* , since ID cannot be falsified it is not scientifically true.

*The term falsifiable apparently does not mean what you think it is, just because something is falsifiable does not mean it will be proven false. To be falsifiable, something only needs to make testable predictions that give the potential of countermanding it. For example, it's a fact that at sea level, objects will accelerate towards the earth as a rate of 9.8m/s^2, this can be falsified by dropping an object at sea level and measuring it's rate of acceleration towards the earth. If you perform this experiment and it fails to fall towards the earth, then it has been falsified.

Learn your words, use them with exactness, and gain an advantage over the unwashed masses.
 
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Athrond

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I would agree that ID does not qualify as a falsifiable hypothesis. It's not a hypothesis because it's an observation of the obvious, and it's not falsifiable because it's true. :)

Just like to point out that, even if the universe has a designer - the ID hypothesis of today certainly isn't true. It has no data to support it.

Creationists need to diferensiate between a bad theory, and the assumption of a designer.

Just think about the bogus theories of gravity - we know gravity is there, but no good theory has been put forward to explain it. imagine ID as one of those theories, but substitute "gravity" with "life/diversity".

Because scientists are NOT at fault or just being narrow minded when it come to ID theory - because ID is bollocks see?

Now go out and come up with a good theory :D
 
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Naraoia

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I would agree that ID does not qualify as a falsifiable hypothesis. It's not a hypothesis because it's an observation of the obvious, and it's not falsifiable because it's true. :)
Yeah, what ragarth said.

A statement is falsifiable if you would observe different things depending on the statement's truth.

Oh, and if ID is indeed unfalsifiable (which, as far as I can tell, it is), it cannot be considered true under scientific thinking. If any observation would be consistent with ID, then you can't tell from observation that it's true.
 
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plindboe

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Dr. Beauregard (a neuroscientist) claims to have found evidence of the human soul in a study he conducted and there has been little to no sigificant critique of his actual study results/findings.

Little to no critique, significant or not, isn't exactly a badge of honour in science. Usually it means that you have provided something inconsequential.

That said, it would be fun to see the study. Of course, usually when people make such grand claims, they have a book they want to sell. Religion makes people such easy targets for exploitation.

Peter :)
 
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yguy

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is there some other "observation of the obvious" that isnt falsifiable
Are there any which ARE?
Do you have an ordinary everyday example that we could all agree is obvious?
Pick any organism, any molecule or any atom, the least of which no one has even the merest wisp of a clue of how it might be created from scratch. The only real mystery is how anyone could miss it.
 
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Hespera

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Are there any which ARE?Pick any organism, any molecule or any atom, the least of which no one has even the merest wisp of a clue of how it might be created from scratch. The only real mystery is how anyone could miss it.


Please take advice offered by another poster and learn what "falsifiable" means in this context.

You nor anyone else knows how matter came into existence. So?

You are mystifying yourself if you think anyone did miss that.
 
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plindboe

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How in heck do you figure that?

I see a tree outside my window. Is that observation falsifiable?

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

"Falsifiability (or refutability) is the logical possibility that an assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then this can be shown by observation or experiment"

Peter :)
 
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Hespera

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Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

"Falsifiability (or refutability) is the logical possibility that an assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then this can be shown by observation or experiment"

Peter :)

I dunno; take this a step at a time? maybe in court.

"I swear to tell the truth the whole truth etc, and I saw a tree outside my room.

Please tell us how far away it was.

......20 feet maybe

How tall would you say it was

.......60 feet

What kind

.......Oak

So we go to check. There is no tree there. No photograph of the yard taken in recent years shows a tree. The neighbors all testify that they never saw a tree. All of the tree removal services show their records, under subpoena; none of them did any tree removal there.

Excavations fail to produce any root structure or buried stump. Soil chemistry indicates no tannins from oak leaves.

your testimony has been falsified. there was no tree.

On the other hand, maybe there is a tree. Same process will reveal that there is a tree, just like you said.

But either way your statement in court was falsifiable.
 
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yguy

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Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

"Falsifiability (or refutability) is the logical possibility that an assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then this can be shown by observation or experiment"

Peter :)
You cannot show as false my observation of the tree, because I know it's true. So essentially what you're saying is that once something is known, it's no longer falsifiable.

Right?
 
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plindboe

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You cannot show as false my observation of the tree, because I know it's true. So essentially what you're saying is that once something is known, it's no longer falsifiable.

Right?

Whether it's true or false has nothing to do with whether a claim is falsifiable. If you make the claim that the tree is there, that's a falsifiable claim, no matter if the tree exists or not.

Peter :)
 
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yguy

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Whether it's true or false has nothing to do with whether a claim is falsifiable.
According to the definition you cited, it has plenty to do with it, since there is clearly no logical possibility of proving false that which is known to be true.
 
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