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What - Precisely - Are Christians Attempting To Save Homosexuals From ...?

Maren

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To Maren

Sorry but I have not re-arranged, I have merely replaced laying for bed. If you now wish to dispute the word ‘both’ to suit your agenda please do so, but if not tell me which the both refers to.


My fault, I was asleep this morning when I replied. I apologize for the mistake. OTOH, it still isn't clear. Rather, it just makes it sound as if three people are involved rather than two. It doesn't make it sound like what you want to make it sound like unless you start adding words like "as" that aren't in the original text. Further, as has been pointed out, this word in the Bible means "bed" most of the time.

Further, this is where we can go back to Lev. 18 which states, "with male not lay bed woman abomination is", that definitely sounds like not to have sex with a male in a woman's bed.

People have same sex attraction of course, as long as one is using the word correctly. But where have I denied homosexuals exist?


You are the one that claimed, "as soon as one uses the modern concepts homosexual and heterosexual which cuts across the Biblicla truth...." While perhaps I misunderstand, it is saying like you are claiming that homosexuals (same-sex attraction) is a "modern concept"; that it is something made up that didn't exist in the time of the Bible. And if the idea of same-sex attraction is not a modern invention, but rather something that did exist in Biblical times (not necessarily the concept but the attraction), why does the Bible not address homosexuality?

I know otherwise you wouldn’t have made your comment. I refered to the word of God which Jesus who is called the Word of God refers to.


Just call it a quirk of my upbringing that I don't like the Bible being referred to as the word of God. Strangely, I don't mind God's word but Word of God should be reserved for Christ.

No I don’t because Jesus has fulfilled the law in a number of ways. For example Jesus NT teaching says it no longer matters what we eat or wear Mark 7, Romans 12, those codes are no longer binding; we no longer have to make sacrifices as Jesus has become the sacrifice once and for all.


But this isn't what you posted earlier. You claimed, "The Bible says through faith in Christ we are no longer under obligation of the law but under grace.". So, before you claimed no obligation but now it is a partial obligation. I agree with the no obligation, which is why I have not mentioned Paul's writings on the Law (and a thank to Ollie Franz for posting them). I don't see where they Bible states we are still under obligation to the Law.

But Jesus Christ’s NT teaching does affirm man and woman Matt 19, Eph 5/Gen 2 and love ones neighbour Matthew 19/Leviticus 19, and homosexual prohibitions 1 Cor 6/Lev 18.
I hope that is clear to you now.


And again, it doesn't state that man and woman is the only allowable coupling. In fact, the Bible actually shows this isn't the only allowable type of relationship since there are so many man with multiple women that God blessed and allowed. In fact, the Bible even state that God gave David his wives and would have given him more, when it condemns David for killing Uriah so he could marry Bathsheba (2 Samuel 12:8). Nowhere in the Bible does it state that man/woman is the only acceptable standard. Your claims that because it mentions a man woman relationship it is condemning other relationships is a logical fallacy. It is much like saying since the Bible talks of Jesus riding on an ass that riding in cars is condemned for not being mentioned.

I've shown the problem of translating Leviticus. And 1 Corinthians 6 has a larger translation issue than Leviticus. Paul uses the word "arsenokoites" and we have no historical evidence of exactly what the word means. It appears as if Paul may have made the word up, the word is only seen in a few other writings at the time of Paul and they are believed to have access to Paul's writings. Further, like Paul, they use the word in a list where no clear meaning can be inferred.

Beyond that, there are two main reasons why it doesn't seem like homosexuality is the correct translation. One, in older Bible translations (those prior to the King James), the word is typically defined as masturbation. And secondly, there were six other words in common usage in Koine Greek that we today would understand to mean homosexual acts. So why would Paul use a word that people would not clearly understand as homosexual if that is what he wanted us to understand?

Ok so my comments above should clear that up, I am following Jesus Christ’s fulfilment of the law, if you think Jesus Christ is hypocracy the ok.


No, I believe Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and that we are no longer subject to the Law. Not that Christ fulfilled parts of the Law.

I am using Leviticus to show homosexual practice is sinful but under your persecution complex any sin pointed out would immediately condemn everyone who did it.


Again, I'm not claiming that sin immediately condemns; this is a straw man of my position that you can't seem to let go of. Instead, I merely asked if that is what you were trying to do (as that is what many Christians here try to do, to condemn homosexual behavior), you said no and I dropped it. Please quit misrepresenting and assigning motives for what I am stating.

Don’t you know that in Christ Jesus there is no condemnation, He came to save not condemn. But Jesus cites Leviticus 19 to love ones neighbour, you see the focus is Jesus Christ.
I don’t cal homosexuals sinners I point out the Bible, including Leviticus 18 and 20 calls homosexual practice sin. And seeing as you are so bothered about what Leviticus 18 and 20 says you must also be bothered about it, otherwise if you didn’t believe it you wouldn’t be bothered.


This is a ridiculous claim. Were the abolitionists bothered by the truth of the Bible verses supporting slavery, and that is why they were "bothered"? Are you bothered because you actually believe what I say and that is why you are bothered? I trust you can see the bad logic in your assumptions here.

Well you have already offered this explanation and asked me about my approach to the OT law so yes I am talking about this.
Well they don’t mention homosexuality, homosexuality is same-sex attraction, what the Bible mentions is homosexual practice which is men with men instead of women.


And when I mentioned homosexual, I meant homosexual acts. While it isn't technically correct, in a conversation like this I think most understand that homosexual is meant as the acts and not the orientation.

Infact what you are saying is you don’t accept the Bible translations are correct, the Bible translations do say men with men instead of women is error and a man shall not lie with mankind as with a woman.


Again, so you claim. I do think it interesting that historically we can see where the translators of the King James version of the Bible appear to change some verses (such as "arsenokoites") to mean homosexual. Further, there is some evidence that this was not done because they necessarily thought the verses actually meant homosexual but rather to make comments about King James' lifestyle. And if you look at most translation notes of English translations of the Bible, they use the King James version as a reference.

It matters because two men cant produce kids between them.


Um, why does that matter? This just seems like some random point you throw out.

Well that basically confirms what I said,
Or alternatively if we had understood the Bible properly we would never have had those ideas. Can you show me the Bible verses which say that the earth is flat and there should be segregation. Also where the slave trade is acceptable; slavery by the way is acceptable as we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.


Of course, the people then thought they understood the Bible properly, just as you claim that you understand the Bible properly. I'm not really worried about what verses say there Earth is flat, as it is known many Christians believed in a flat Earth based on the Bible. It is one of the primary reasons Galileo was imprisoned. But this site shows the verses. As for segregation, find the original court decision but the trial judge of Loving v. Virginia. He quoted the Biblical argument as evidence that mixed race marriages should be prohibited.

Which is a false claim as I am not making an argument from silence. I have shown about a dozen passages that I believe clearly obviously and unambiguously exclude and condemn homosexual practice and unions.


And there are several hundred passages that talk of heterosexual sex as a sin. Should we then imply that all heterosexual sex is sinful? You have provided no verses that condemn monogamous same sex relationships.

Whether you reject them or not is irrelevant to the fact I believe them. What you need to do is come up with some passages that countenance homosexual practice and I’ll tell you whether I accept or reject them. But by accusing me of arguing from silence you are actually accusing me of the failing you alone are making.

And you belief does not make your assertions the truth, just as the verses that imply a flat earth or segregation does not make those views the truth. Instead, it is an argument from silence to claim that homosexual relationships are forbidden simply because they aren't mentioned. But, for a same sex relationship that was countenanced I'll give you the Centurion and his servant.
 
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savedandhappy1

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A nonreligious friend of mine from another country asked a question of me the other day. We were discussing 'sin' in general and 'homosexuality' specifically in regard to the Bible. My friend asked WHY the Christian God would bother having created human beings in the first place if He - knowing the end from the beginning - knew that the majority of human beings 'wouldn't make it'. He also asked the question as to WHY God would have even THOUGHT of initiating a place (hell) for those who 'don't make it' just so that He could inflict torment on them for eternity. In other words, what would be the logical object behind 'a hell'?

Obviously, since I would be considered a pagan by some Christians on this site because I'm not 'anti-gay', I couldn't answer my friend's questions. In actuality my friend didn't need to raise these questions to make me think about them. I have many such questions myself that involve the 'logic' - or, more like, the (il)logic - of Christianity.

The majority of 'concerned' Christians on this subforum would probably claim that they are attempting to save homosexuals from ...well, what precisely? Eternal damnation? Please, just think about this for a moment. Actually, a moment is all that it should take for logic and reasoning to kick in. Mainstream Christianity teaches that God is love. Right? However, sinners - homosexuals in this case - are being warned by Christians about this God of love who has set up a place that will cause them eternal suffering FOREVER unless they become either 'straight' or celibate. While this very notion flies in the face of both love and logic this seems to sit quite comfortably, thank you very much, with the majority of Christians. I mean, if we were to change the name 'God' to 'Hitler'* then we would have an outcry in the Church like has never been heard before. But, God's name is not 'Hitler', it's 'God'- even though God's method of punishment goes WAY beyond anything Hitler could EVER have been capable of doing.

Matt. 25:41
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Several years ago a book was published, entitled Beyond Death's Door by Dr. Maurice Rawlings. Dr. Rawlings, a specialist in Internal Medicine and Cardiovascular Disease, resuscitated many people who had been clinically dead. Dr. Rawlings, a devout atheist, "considered all religion "hocus-pocus" and death nothing more than a painless extinction". But something happened in 1977 that brought a dramatic change in the life of Dr. Rawlings! He was resuscitating a man, terrified and screaming — descending down into the flames of hell:
[FONT=Times Roman, Times]"Each time he regained heartbeat and respiration, the patient screamed, "I am in hell!" He was terrified and pleaded with me to help him. I was scared to death. . . Then I noticed a genuinely alarmed look on his face. He had a terrified look worse than the expression seen in death! This patient had a grotesque grimace expressing sheer horror! His pupils were dilated, and he was perspiring and trembling — he looked as if his hair was "on end."
Then still another strange thing happened. He said,"Don't you understand? I am in hell. . . Don't let me go back to hell!" . . .the man was serious, and it finally occurred to me that he was indeed in trouble. He was in a panic like I had never seen before."

(Maurice Rawlings, Beyond Death's Door,(Thomas Nelson Inc., 1979) p. 3).[/FONT]​
Dr. Rawlings said, no one, who could have heard his screams and saw the look of terror on his face could doubt for a single minute that he was actually in a place called hell!

The Bible continually warns of a place called hell. There are over 162 references in the New Testament alone which warns of hell. And over 70 of these references were uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ!

http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

[QUOTE=KCKID;48061345]So, what answer would I give my friend if I were wanting to 'sell' God and Christianity to him? While I realize that the question involves sin in general this is a subforum devoted to homosexuality. So, my question is "What Are Christians Attempting To Save Homosexuals From ...? There are also 'sub-questions' that emerge from the bigger question, of course.
[/quote]

You would tell your friend that God loved them so much that He sent His only begotten son to save them from Hell, which was created for the devil and his angels.

What are we trying to save all sinners from?????????????????????? The same thing we as sinners are saved from, HELL.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Two different Greek words are translated as "love" in the New Testament, and they have more specific meanings than our English word "love."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (verb) and [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (noun).[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] This is the "Christian love" of the Bible. It means affection, benevolence, good-will, high esteem and concern for the welfare of the one loved. It is deliberate, purposeful love rather than emotional or impulsive love. Almost all of the New Testament references to love are [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] or [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] in the original Greek. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phileo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (verb).[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] This means to love in an impulsive and emotional way. It is seldom used in the Bible, but there is a play on words (lost in English) in John 21:15-17. Jesus says to Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]) me?" Peter answers, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]phileo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]) you." [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Philadelphia[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] is a related word meaning the love of brothers or sisters (e.g., Romans 12:10). It is often translated "brotherly love."[/FONT]

God's love for mankind[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Love is one of the attributes of God and an essential part of His nature:[/FONT]

Why are we to believe if just because God loves us that means we can do whatever we want?

Don't the scriptures tell us that we love because God is in us? What does that mean to you?

1 John 4:12-16
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Why are we told that we are made perfect because of love, and because of that perfection we can have boldness in the day of judgment? Day of judgment????

Didn't God judge people in the OT? Where are we told that He will not judge us anymore?

1 John 4:17-19
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Reading all of chapter 4, in 1 John, sheds light on alot of things when speaking of love.

Why are not God's other attributes mentioned anymore? Is there somewhere in the Bible where it says He has changed, and His only attribute is love?

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Exodus 20:1-6
1 And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Exodus 34:14
14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

Nahum 1:2-7
2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges;
The LORD avenges and is furious.
The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
And will not at all acquit the wicked.

The LORD has His way
In the whirlwind and in the storm,
And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry,
And dries up all the rivers.
Bashan and Carmel wither,
And the flower of Lebanon wilts.
5 The mountains quake before Him,
The hills melt,
And the earth heaves at His presence,
Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.
6 Who can stand before His indignation?
And who can endure the fierceness of His anger?
His fury is poured out like fire,
And the rocks are thrown down by Him.
7 The LORD is good,
A stronghold in the day of trouble;
And He knows those who trust in Him.


Deut. 32:4, 16
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.


16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods;
With abominations they provoked Him to anger.


1 Kings 14:22-24
22 Now Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked Him to jealousy with their sins which they committed, more than all that their fathers had done.
23 For they also built for themselves high places, sacred pillars, and wooden images on every high hill and under every green tree.
24 And there were also perverted persons in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

Psalms 78:58
58 For they provoked Him to anger with their high places,
And moved Him to jealousy with their carved images


"Jealous" does not refer to the shallow human emotion, but speaks of God's intolerance to divided loyalty by those who are in Covenant with Him.

God is righteous, meaning that God cannot and will not pass over wrongdoing; it is because of His righteousness and justice that in order for our sins to be forgiven, Jesus had to experience God's judgment when our sins were placed upon Him (Exodus 9:27; Matthew 27:45-46; Romans 3:21-26).

I could keep listing scriptures, but since I haven't read anything but your post.......and am sure alot of this has already been posted I will stop here.

As I have said on many post, we need to define love as God does. Which doesn't mean accepting unrighteousness/sin, but love us enough to tell us of our sins while giving us the solution for our sinful state.

God doesn't send anyone to hell, but we can reject Him and send ourselves there. It doesn't change the fact that God love us, just means we don't love Him.


 
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Maren

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After reading so many threads on this subject of late im increasingly of the opinion the answer to the title question is..

"Living happy lives, because people who are different dont evidently deserve them"

Personally, I think it is closer to "force people to live the same way I do, because people who live differently are not really happy -- despite how much they think they are."
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Olliefranz,

OK, since you conveniently keep missing Maren's point, let me try to get at the point by asking a totally different question.
Actually I am not missing Maren’s point, I have addressed his points specifically to show why his points are incorrect in my view. What you and Maren are doing is expecting I will see your point of view which of course is impossible if I see it as flawed.

You tell us that you can ignore some commands in Leviticus and Deuteronomy because they were fulfilled in Jesus.
The answer is no I don’t nor have I said that. In fact its opposite to what I have said.
What I have said is that I am not under the obligation of the law and I follow Jesus who is the fulfilment of the law. Your remark is not only inaccurate but implies Jesus Christ has not fulfilled all the law.

You also tell us that other commands are still in effect, even for Christians.
No again I have not told you that. I have said that Jesus Christ fulfills the law in various ways.

For example Leviticus 18 and 20 which have the "homosexual acts" commandments which you say still apply, also forbids sleeping with a woman (including your wife) when she is in her niddah, a command that most in your camp do not believe applies any more. On what basis was that decided? Where in the Bible is the passage that tells you that?
My wife and I do not have sex during this time. Why don’t you deal with the points I have made rather than make personal and incorrect judgement about my life and actions based on false guesses.


All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1 Corinthians 6:12)
Yes I believe that. Do you believe that makes paedophilia ok? Do you believe 1 Corinthians 6:9-11? “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. “

I mean have you been mastered by any of those things? Do you really believe 1 Corinthians 6:12?
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Maren
My fault, I was asleep this morning when I replied. I apologize for the mistake.
No problem pleases forgive me if I make one.
OTOH, it still isn't clear. Rather, it just makes it sound as if three people are involved rather than two. It doesn't make it sound like what you want to make it sound like unless you start adding words like "as" that aren't in the original text. Further, as has been pointed out, this word in the Bible means "bed" most of the time.
But you haven’t answered my question what does the both refer to. You have said it sounds as if there are three to you but it doesn’t sound as if there are three to me, it sounds as if there are two options and it says both. So which are the two who should be put to death?

You see all I have done is ask what the both means, and it says both. So I haven’t made it sound anything. Yet you who have said it sounds like something have accused me of making it sound like I want it. The fact is it is you who wants it to sound like something.
So you need to answer this question, who are the two, because unless you do you will be building your argument on a false basis. The Leviticus 20 passage says both so you can know that the issue in the Leviticus 18 is not the whose bed it is but the people involved.
why does the Bible not address homosexuality?
Well it addresses men lusting after men (Romans 1) just as it addresses men looking lustfully at women (Matthew 5) so I guess it does. The problem is you are not looking to see what the Bible says that might have a bearing on homosexuality but looking to see whether the Bible says anything about homosexuality, the whole focus of your attention is homosexuality not what the Bible says. You are looking to justify homosexuality.

But this isn't what you posted earlier. You claimed, "The Bible says through faith in Christ we are no longer under obligation of the law but under grace.". So, before you claimed no obligation but now it is a partial obligation.
Nope , I am referring to what the Bible says and I have made no statement as to anything partial. If it says Christ has fulfilled the law then assume He has fulfilled all of it unless you can show where there is an exception. That he has fulfilled it in various ways is not the same as not fulfilling it.
And again, it doesn't state that man and woman is the only allowable coupling.
I am not interested in what it doesn’t state but in fact it does make it clear that this is the only allowable coupling as celibacy, which is the absence of coupling is the only alternative given (Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7) and fornication which breaks the marriage union (Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, Hebrews 13)

In fact, the Bible actually shows this isn't the only allowable type of relationship since there are so many man with multiple women that God blessed and allowed.
But that’s a coupling of man/woman not man/man or woman/woman or man/animal. God detests the coupling of man and man or man and animal (Leviticus 18 & 20, 1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1) so God doesn’t allow it.

I've shown the problem of translating Leviticus.
I am afraid you haven’t as I believe the Bible translations such as NIV and KJV that I have cited. I don’t believe your doubts. So I suggest instead of saying what you don’t believe and what God doesn’t seem to say you show where God does countenance other couplings. If you cant your argument is built at the very best on silence, and I would say disbelief as well.


Don’t you know that in Christ Jesus there is no condemnation, He came to save not condemn. But Jesus cites Leviticus 19 to love ones neighbour, you see the focus is Jesus Christ.
I don’t cal homosexuals sinners I point out the Bible, including Leviticus 18 and 20 calls homosexual practice sin. And seeing as you are so bothered about what Leviticus 18 and 20 says you must also be bothered about it, otherwise if you didn’t believe it you wouldn’t be bothered.


This is a ridiculous claim. Were the abolitionists bothered by the truth of the Bible verses supporting slavery, and that is why they were "bothered"? Are you bothered because you actually believe what I say and that is why you are bothered? I trust you can see the bad logic in your assumptions here.
Well I am not talking about the abolutionsts, in my view those who supported the slave trade were like those who try and justify homosexual practice today. I am referring to the Bible texts and it is clear, and even sates, that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. I point out where the Bible says homosexual practice is sin. You have all kinds of objections to Bible translation when it comes to these passages yet you cite other passages as though the only problem with Bible translation occurs where homosexual practice is condemned because you want it to say what your itching ears want to hear. Nonetheless that just my opinion as opposed to yours.


Which is a false claim as I am not making an argument from silence. I have shown about a dozen passages that I believe clearly obviously and unambiguously exclude and condemn homosexual practice and unions.


And there are several hundred passages that talk of heterosexual sex as a sin. Should we then imply that all heterosexual sex is sinful? You have provided no verses that condemn monogamous same sex relationships.
complete nonsense. Firstly we aren’t discussing sex between man and women, secondly heterosexual means having opposite sex attraction which only implies sex between a man and a woman, the terms are confused, and thirdly no one is suggesting sex between a man and a woman outside marriage is not sin. If they were I would ask them for some evidence, As you are prosing that sex outside marriage between a man and a man is ok please provide some evidence.
And you belief does not make your assertions the truth,
let me stop you there, again you are not debating and providing any evidence to support your view on the issue you are just dissing my argument and referring to other issues.
But, for a same sex relationship that was countenanced I'll give you the Centurion and his servant.
Nope that’s your assumption, the passage does not say that. You hope that because pederasty and homosexual practice did occur with Roman centurions that Jesus healed someone in that situation it might comdone it. Well I think paedophiles would be very interested in that.

For the record I am sure Jesus healed all who came to Him whether sinners or not God. The word is ‘pais’ which could be child, it is also the same word that is used for Jesus (Acts 3) My assumption from silence cancels out yours.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Maren
My fault, I was asleep this morning when I replied. I apologize for the mistake.
No problem pleases forgive me if I make one.
OTOH, it still isn't clear. Rather, it just makes it sound as if three people are involved rather than two. It doesn't make it sound like what you want to make it sound like unless you start adding words like "as" that aren't in the original text. Further, as has been pointed out, this word in the Bible means "bed" most of the time.
But you haven’t answered my question what does the both refer to. You have said it sounds as if there are three to you but it doesn’t sound as if there are three to me, it sounds as if there are two options and it says both. So which are the two who should be put to death?

You see all I have done is ask what the both means, and it says both. So I haven’t made it sound anything. Yet you who have said it sounds like something have accused me of making it sound like I want it. The fact is it is you who wants it to sound like something.
So you need to answer this question, who are the two, because unless you do you will be building your argument on a false basis. The Leviticus 20 passage says both so you can know that the issue in the Leviticus 18 is not the whose bed it is but the people involved.
why does the Bible not address homosexuality?
Well it addresses men lusting after men (Romans 1) just as it addresses men looking lustfully at women (Matthew 5) so I guess it does. The problem is you are not looking to see what the Bible says that might have a bearing on homosexuality but looking to see whether the Bible says anything about homosexuality, the whole focus of your attention is homosexuality not what the Bible says. You are looking to justify homosexuality.

But this isn't what you posted earlier. You claimed, "The Bible says through faith in Christ we are no longer under obligation of the law but under grace.". So, before you claimed no obligation but now it is a partial obligation.
Nope , I am referring to what the Bible says and I have made no statement as to anything partial. If it says Christ has fulfilled the law then assume He has fulfilled all of it unless you can show where there is an exception. That he has fulfilled it in various ways is not the same as not fulfilling it.
And again, it doesn't state that man and woman is the only allowable coupling.
I am not interested in what it doesn’t state but in fact it does make it clear that this is the only allowable coupling as celibacy, which is the absence of coupling is the only alternative given (Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7) and fornication which breaks the marriage union (Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, Hebrews 13)

In fact, the Bible actually shows this isn't the only allowable type of relationship since there are so many man with multiple women that God blessed and allowed.
But that’s a coupling of man/woman not man/man or woman/woman or man/animal. God detests the coupling of man and man or man and animal (Leviticus 18 & 20, 1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1) so God doesn’t allow it.

I've shown the problem of translating Leviticus.
I am afraid you haven’t as I believe the Bible translations such as NIV and KJV that I have cited. I don’t believe your doubts. So I suggest instead of saying what you don’t believe and what God doesn’t seem to say you show where God does countenance other couplings. If you cant your argument is built at the very best on silence, and I would say disbelief as well.


Don’t you know that in Christ Jesus there is no condemnation, He came to save not condemn. But Jesus cites Leviticus 19 to love ones neighbour, you see the focus is Jesus Christ.
I don’t cal homosexuals sinners I point out the Bible, including Leviticus 18 and 20 calls homosexual practice sin. And seeing as you are so bothered about what Leviticus 18 and 20 says you must also be bothered about it, otherwise if you didn’t believe it you wouldn’t be bothered.


This is a ridiculous claim. Were the abolitionists bothered by the truth of the Bible verses supporting slavery, and that is why they were "bothered"? Are you bothered because you actually believe what I say and that is why you are bothered? I trust you can see the bad logic in your assumptions here.
Well I am not talking about the abolutionsts, in my view those who supported the slave trade were like those who try and justify homosexual practice today. I am referring to the Bible texts and it is clear, and even sates, that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. I point out where the Bible says homosexual practice is sin. You have all kinds of objections to Bible translation when it comes to these passages yet you cite other passages as though the only problem with Bible translation occurs where homosexual practice is condemned because you want it to say what your itching ears want to hear. Nonetheless that just my opinion as opposed to yours.


Which is a false claim as I am not making an argument from silence. I have shown about a dozen passages that I believe clearly obviously and unambiguously exclude and condemn homosexual practice and unions.


And there are several hundred passages that talk of heterosexual sex as a sin. Should we then imply that all heterosexual sex is sinful? You have provided no verses that condemn monogamous same sex relationships.
complete nonsense. Firstly we aren’t discussing sex between man and women, secondly heterosexual means having opposite sex attraction which only implies sex between a man and a woman, the terms are confused, and thirdly no one is suggesting sex between a man and a woman outside marriage is not sin. If they were I would ask them for some evidence, As you are prosing that sex outside marriage between a man and a man is ok please provide some evidence.
And you belief does not make your assertions the truth,
let me stop you there, again you are not debating and providing any evidence to support your view on the issue you are just dissing my argument and referring to other issues.
But, for a same sex relationship that was countenanced I'll give you the Centurion and his servant.
Nope that’s your assumption, the passage does not say that. You hope that because pederasty and homosexual practice did occur with Roman centurions that Jesus healed someone in that situation it might comdone it. Well I think paedophiles would be very interested in that.

For the record I am sure Jesus healed all who came to Him whether sinners or not God. The word is ‘pais’ which could be child, it is also the same word that is used for Jesus (Acts 3) My assumption from silence cancels out yours.
 
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OllieFranz

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To Olliefranz,

Actually I am not missing Maren’s point, I have addressed his points specifically to show why his points are incorrect in my view. What you and Maren are doing is expecting I will see your point of view which of course is impossible if I see it as flawed.

The answer is no I don’t nor have I said that. In fact its opposite to what I have said.
What I have said is that I am not under the obligation of the law and I follow Jesus who is the fulfilment of the law. Your remark is not only inaccurate but implies Jesus Christ has not fulfilled all the law.

However you choose to phrase it, it is true that you feel yourself to be under no obligation to obey the dietary laws because of Christ's fulfillment of the Law. Yet you still insist that gays follow the letter of the law as you have interpreted it when it comes to Leviticus 18:22. Stop quibbling over words like you have been doing with Maren and answer the question: Where is the passage that says that Jesus only fulfilled part of the Law?


Yes I believe that.

I notice that you did not include the Galatians passage that if you insist on placing yourself under the law (or in this case, judging others including other Christians -- insisting that they place themselves under the Law, in violation of Romans 14) under any part of the law, you place yourself under the whole of the law and Christ is of no effect to you? Why do you not believe this one?

Do you believe that makes paedophilia ok?

Pædophilia is a modern concept. The Talmud speaks of marriages nine-year old boys and three-year-old girls, and sees nothing wrong with a grown woman "rubbing" a young boy or a man sleeping with a young girl. There is nothing at all in the Bible concerning pædophilia.

However I do believe it is a detestable practice, and harmful to the children involved. It is right that it is against the law, and that the most severe sentences are meted out to those who commit it.

Any other red herrings you want to throw out, or are you ready to answer the question? And before you jump on the word law in the previous paragraph in order to continue avoiding answering, the laws of the land and the Law are two different things, though they often follow the same path.



Do you believe 1 Corinthians 6:9-11? “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. “
I mean have you been mastered by any of those things? Do you really believe 1 Corinthians 6:12?

Context! 1 Corinthians 6:1-12 reads:
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

I am not surprised that, although your citation was for verses 9-11, you only actually quoted 9-10. Even that one more verse would weaken your argument. But let's look at the entire context of what Paul was saying.

Verses 1-8: Paul has learned that the Christians in Corinth, instead of tolerating one another's differences, have been taking one another to court to be judged by the (non-Christian) civil magistrates. He says they (and we) should bring them to another Christian to judge, if necessary, but it would be even better to just suffer the hurts involved and get over them (forgiving one another implied but not stated, since holding grudges is not Christ-like behavior).

Verses 9-11: Paul tells them (and us) that if we were to go by the Law, no one would be saved. Everyone is guilty of at least one of the sins mentioned. But we have been justified by Jesus and transformed by the Holy Spirit.

Verse 12: Under the grace afforded by Jesus, we are totally free of the law.

That does not mean that we are free to sin (see Romans 6:1-6), but rather that the written Law has been superseded by the indwelling presence of the Lawgiver Himself. He works through our consciences, not through written words, because no written list can cover every possible situation.

But I'm getting off track, here. The point is that this list of sinners, like the list of sins in Romans 1, is not included as a checklist, but as a reminder that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." We should all look at the lists and find a reason why we could never save ourselves. We should not use the lists to look at others and say that they are terrible sinners and cannot be saved.

Immediately after the list in Romans, Paul says:
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?(Romans 2:1-3)
This passage, in combination with the Galatians passage, and Romans 14, gives me a very good reason to be accepting of everyone who professes to be a Christian, whether or not they are doing things that seem to me to be sinful. (Note: being accepting of them as Christians does not mean not stopping them if they are doing something of real harm.)
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Olliefranz,
However you choose to phrase it, it is true that you feel yourself to be under no obligation to obey the dietary laws because of Christ's fulfillment of the Law.
As I said I seek to follow Jesus Christ’s teaching which I have pointed out to you. Your opinions of what I do don’t particularly interest me. If you look at Mark 7 and Romans 12 you will see that because of Christ it no longer matters what we eat.
Yet you still insist that gays follow the letter of the law as you have interpreted it when it comes to Leviticus 18:22.
No I don’t, gays can do what they want, they can chose to follow God’s purposes, which I am pointing out from the Bible, or not, that’s up to them.

Stop quibbling over words like you have been doing with Maren and answer the question: Where is the passage that says that Jesus only fulfilled part of the Law?
On the contrary as I am happy with the Bible translations as they stand it is Maren who has in your words ‘quibbled’
f you have a valid point to make to the debate please do so as I wish to discuss the issues rather than listen to your personal assessment of my views.

Pædophilia is a modern concept.
So is homosexuality, I know its a modern concept I don’t need you to tell me what I have already said on these boards but I do expect you to address my challenge to the scripture you posted. What do you think 1 Corinthians means by all things lawful? All things including the sins just mentioned in 1 Corinthans 6:9-10? If not what, and why did you cite it?

Now as to 1 Corinthians 6 and Romans 1 & 2, we don’t have to look at others, all we need to know is what is sin so we don’t do it and so that if another advertises it we can restore them gently from sin Gal 6. As some are advertising and promoting a sin here we can correct them. And so it is with homosexual practice.
 
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OllieFranz

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Either you are incredibly naive , incredibly stupid, think that the rest of us are naive or stupid, or you are totally dishonest in your debate tactics. I will give you one more chance

To Olliefranz,
As I said I seek to follow Jesus Christ’s teaching which I have pointed out to you. Your opinions of what I do don’t particularly interest me. If you look at Mark 7 and Romans 12 you will see that because of Christ it no longer matters what we eat.

Yes, I understood and acknowledged that. Now answer the question.

No I don’t, gays can do what they want, they can chose to follow God’s purposes, which I am pointing out from the Bible, or not, that’s up to them.

Do you also point it out to people who in your opinion are not Christians when they are not following the dietary laws? This gets to the heart of your apparent hypocrisy. Now answer my question and show me the verse that says Jesus only fulfilled part of the Law

On the contrary as I am happy with the Bible translations as they stand it is Maren who has in your words ‘quibbled’

It is not the words of the Bible I accused you of quibbling with, but the phrasing that Maren and I used to paraphrase your position. You understand well the point we are trying to get at. Now answer the question.

If you have a valid point to make to the debate please do so as I wish to discuss the issues rather than listen to your personal assessment of my views.


I only "assess" your views to the extent that you are trying use them to misunderstand the question I asked. Now answer the question.

So is homosexuality, I know its a modern concept I don’t need you to tell me what I have already said on these boards but I do expect you to address my challenge to the scripture you posted. What do you think 1 Corinthians means by all things lawful? All things including the sins just mentioned in 1 Corinthans 6:9-10? If not what, and why did you cite it?
Now as to 1 Corinthians 6 and Romans 1 & 2, we don’t have to look at others, all we need to know is what is sin so we don’t do it and so that if another advertises it we can restore them gently from sin Gal 6. As some are advertising and promoting a sin here we can correct them. And so it is with homosexual practice.

Once again you quibble. You focus on one sentence in response intended to quickly dispose of an irrelevant attempt to derail the discussion, and then ignore the rest of post, where I have already answered the question. I have always answered your questions. Please stop avoiding the issue and answer mine.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Olliefranz,
Either you are incredibly naive , incredibly stupid, think that the rest of us are naive or stupid, or you are totally dishonest in your debate tactics. I will give you one more chance

Don’t forget the official position of most Christians worldwide is that homosexual practice is sin. If you want to propose why not then come up with some evidence for your reasoning, I am not intimidated by personal remarks.
Yes, I understood and acknowledged that. Now answer the question.
I have answered it. I follow Jesus Christ’s teaching, who is the fulfilment of the law. An example of His teaching on what we can eat as regards your comparison with the dietry obligations under the law I have given with the Mark and Romans citations.
[quote[ Do you also point it out to people who in your opinion are not Christians when they are not following the dietary laws? [/quote] Well the answer is actually no, but if it was yes it wouldn’t change the truth of what the Bible says.
Now answer my question and show me the verse that says Jesus only fulfilled part of the Law
There isn’t one and there wont be one and I never said Jesus only fullfilled part of the law. As you seem to think I have said so you are badly mistaken in what I meant.

On the contrary as I am happy with the Bible translations as they stand it is Maren who has in your words ‘quibbled’
It is not the words of the Bible I accused you of quibbling with, but the phrasing that Maren and I used to paraphrase your position. You understand well the point we are trying to get at. Now answer the question.
You start giving me some scriptures that supports homosexual practice and I will consider addressing your question. This is a debate not an agony aunt column.

So is homosexuality, I know its a modern concept I don’t need you to tell me what I have already said on these boards but I do expect you to address my challenge to the scripture you posted. What do you think 1 Corinthians means by all things lawful? All things including the sins just mentioned in 1 Corinthans 6:9-10? If not what, and why did you cite it?
Now as to 1 Corinthians 6 and Romans 1 & 2, we don’t have to look at others, all we need to know is what is sin so we don’t do it and so that if another advertises it we can restore them gently from sin Gal 6. As some are advertising and promoting a sin here we can correct them. And so it is with homosexual practice.
Once again you quibble. You focus on one sentence in response intended to quickly dispose of an irrelevant attempt to derail the discussion, and then ignore the rest of post, where I have already answered the question. I have always answered your questions. Please stop avoiding the issue and answer mine.
Sorry this debate is terminated. You have nothing to offer.
 
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OllieFranz

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And you still have not answered the question. However you choose to phrase it, the fact is that you do not follow the dietary laws, but you go out of your way to point out to others that they are not following a different part of the Law.

Where is the passage that permits you to do this. The passage that says we are still under parts of the Law?
 
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savedandhappy1

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What dietary laws? They are no more if you take the whole word so...............Let’s take a look at some to the scriptures people have started having difficulties with. I say started because they had no trouble understanding what the scriptures meant back when they were written, and the Church founded.

1. Have the laws against homosexuality been abolished along with the laws against eating pork?

Leviticus 18:22 -26
22. Thou shalt not3808 lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as with4904 womankind:802 it1931 is abomination.8441
23. Neither3808 shalt thou lie5414, 7903 with any3605 beast929 to defile2930 thyself therewith: neither3808 shall any woman802 stand5975 before6440 a beast929 to lie down7250 thereto: it1931 is confusion.8397
24. Defile not ye yourselves2930, 408 in any3605 of these things:428 for3588 in all3605 these428 the nations1471 are defiled2930 which834 I589 cast out7971 before4480, 6440 you:
25. And the land776 is defiled:2930 therefore I do visit6485 the iniquity5771 thereof upon5921 it, and the land776 itself vomiteth out6958 (853) her inhabitants.3427
26. Ye859 shall therefore keep8104 (853) my statutes2708 and my judgments,4941 and shall not3808 commit6213 any of these4480, 3605, 428 abominations;8441 neither any of your own nation,249 nor any stranger1616 that sojourneth1481 among8432 you:


The Problem: The law against homosexuality is found in the levitical law along with laws against eating pork and shrimp.

Lev 11:2 Speak1696 unto413 the children1121 of Israel,3478 saying,559 These2063 are the beasts2416 which834 ye shall eat398 among all4480, 3605 the beasts929 that834 are on5921 the earth.776
Lev 11:3 Whatsoever3605 parteth6536 the hoof,6541 and is cloven-footed,8156, 8157, 6541 and cheweth5927 the cud,1625 among the beasts,929 that shall ye eat.398

Lev 11:10 And all3605 that834 have not369 fins5579 and scales7193 in the seas,3220 and in the rivers,5158 of all4480, 3605 that move8318 in the waters,4325 and of any4480, 3605 living2416 thing5315 which834 is in the waters,4325 they1992 shall be an abomination8263 unto you:

But these ceremonial/dietary laws have been done away with as we see in Acts 10:9-10, and 1 Tim. 4:1-4 in the NT. Because of this some believe that the laws prohibiting homosexual activity are no longer binding either.

Let’s see if we can find a solution to this confusion?

First of all, if laws against homosexuality were merely ceremonial (and therefore abolished), then rape, incest and bestiality would not be morally wrong either, since they are condemned in the same chapter with homosexual sins. (Lev. 18:6-14, 22-23).

Second, homosexual sins among Gentiles were also condemned by God. (Rom. 1:26), and they did not have the ceremonial laws (Rom. 2:12-15). It was for this very reason that God brought judgment on the Canaanites (Gen. 18:1-3, 25).

Third, even in the Jewish levitical law there was a difference in punishment for violating the ceremonial law of eating pork or shrimp (which was a few days isolation) and that for homosexuality which was capital punishment (Lev. 18:29).

Fourth, Jesus changed the dietary laws of the OT (Mark 7:18; Acts 10:15), but the moral prohibitions against homosexuality are still enjoined on believers in the NT (Rom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10; Jude 7).
 
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Maren

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To Maren
No problem pleases forgive me if I make one.
But you haven’t answered my question what does the both refer to. You have said it sounds as if there are three to you but it doesn’t sound as if there are three to me, it sounds as if there are two options and it says both.


I was responding to your attempt at "translation" where you want to replace a word that is translated as bed most of the time as "laying", which this word is never translated to. However, your translation comes out to "
man if lay with man laying woman", which to me clearly seems to say a "man who lays with man laying woman". Now, "laying" in this context is also sometimes "sex", so basically your interpretation becomes a man who lays with a man having sex with a woman. That is why I said it sounded like three; I don't believe a correct translation of Leviticus says any such thing.

So which are the two who should be put to death?

I've never claimed this isn't some type of homosexual sex. All I've claimed is, due to the way the original Hebrew is phrased (and Bible scholars will admit this verse is oddly phrased, that the meaning is not clear cut) that it sounds more like it is talking of adultery. And there are also those Biblical scholars who claim the verse is about sex that occurs during pagan rituals, and this has extra support since it makes Leviticus agree with Deuteronomy.

You see all I have done is ask what the both means, and it says both. So I haven’t made it sound anything.


But I've never claimed "both" wasn't two men, this is simply a straw man.

Yet you who have said it sounds like something have accused me of making it sound like I want it. The fact is it is you who wants it to sound like something.

Nope, I'm merely stating that the verses are unclear as to the exact translation. The way they are currently translated they literally says, "man if sex man sex woman", before we add the extra words that provides the English "translation". That phrase is anything but clear. And it is less clear when the second "sex" more typically simply means "bed". If this truly were a prohibition against all male homosexual sex, would it not be clearer to say "man lay man abomination commit both"? That verse would be extremely clear but that is not what the Bible says.

You are the one claiming trying to force the translation of the verse into your preconceived ideas, even adding extra words (If a man [0376] 'iysh also lie [07901] shakab with mankind, [02145] zakar as he lieth [04904] mishkab with a woman, [0802] 'ishshah both [08147] sh@nayim of them have committed [06213] `asah an abomination: [08441] tow`ebah they shall surely [04191] muwth be put to death; [04191] muwth their blood [01818] dam [shall be] upon them.), changing the order of the words (as in the previous translation), or changing the translation to something the word does not mean (man if lay with man laying woman abomination commit both) to support your preconceived notion.

So you need to answer this question, who are the two, because unless you do you will be building your argument on a false basis. The Leviticus 20 passage says both so you can know that the issue in the Leviticus 18 is not the whose bed it is but the people involved.

Still a straw man.

Well it addresses men lusting after men (Romans 1) just as it addresses men looking lustfully at women (Matthew 5) so I guess it does.


Makes sense. Yet a man in a committed relationship with a man is no more likely to lust after men than a man in a committed relationships is likely to lust after women.

The problem is you are not looking to see what the Bible says that might have a bearing on homosexuality but looking to see whether the Bible says anything about homosexuality, the whole focus of your attention is homosexuality not what the Bible says. You are looking to justify homosexuality.

No, I'm trying to look at what the Bible says.

May I suggest that you not try to make this personal and debate the topic? You have no clue as to my motivations, you attempts at claiming what my motivations are have no basis in reality. Please don't put words in my mouth or claim to have knowledge of what my motivations are. You will embarrass yourself less if you don't try to discredit me by making false claims.

Nope , I am referring to what the Bible says and I have made no statement as to anything partial. If it says Christ has fulfilled the law then assume He has fulfilled all of it unless you can show where there is an exception. That he has fulfilled it in various ways is not the same as not fulfilling it.

This is double talk. You said that Christ "fulfilled the law". You've admitted as much that this is what the Bible says. But then, you try to weasel out by saying, "That he has fulfilled it in various ways is not the same as not fulfilling it." So which is it, has Christ fulfilled the law or has He only fulfilled it in "various ways"? And if it is the second, where in the Bible does it say that "Christ fulfilled the Law but only in various ways"?

I am not interested in what it doesn’t state but in fact it does make it clear that this is the only allowable coupling as celibacy, which is the absence of coupling is the only alternative given (Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7) and fornication which breaks the marriage union (Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, Hebrews 13)

I'll agree with this.

But that’s a coupling of man/woman not man/man or woman/woman or man/animal. God detests the coupling of man and man or man and animal (Leviticus 18 & 20, 1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1) so God doesn’t allow it.

And this I can't accept. Romans 1, like we agreed above, is a condemnation of people who "burned in their lust". The chapter is about people who deny God, create their own, and so God allows them to follow their own lusts. Some of these lusts are sexual, and appear to be both heterosexual and homosexual.

I am afraid you haven’t as I believe the Bible translations such as NIV and KJV that I have cited. I don’t believe your doubts. So I suggest instead of saying what you don’t believe and what God doesn’t seem to say you show where God does countenance other couplings. If you cant your argument is built at the very best on silence, and I would say disbelief as well.

So are you trying to say that everything not explictely mentioned in the Bible is forbidden? Since it never talks about cars or planes in the Bible, but it does talk of riding on asses, horses, and chariots, does that mean cars and planes are forbidden? This is the logic you are using.

Well I am not talking about the abolutionsts, in my view those who supported the slave trade were like those who try and justify homosexual practice today.


No. The abolitionists claimed that the Bible, despite the way translated and understood at the time, actually did not support slavery as practiced in their time. As such, they are like those who claim that monogamous homosexual relationships are not condemned by the Bible.

I am referring to the Bible texts and it is clear, and even sates, that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. I point out where the Bible says homosexual practice is sin. You have all kinds of objections to Bible translation when it comes to these passages yet you cite other passages as though the only problem with Bible translation occurs where homosexual practice is condemned because you want it to say what your itching ears want to hear. Nonetheless that just my opinion as opposed to yours.

You are right, it is just your opinion. In fact, if I see a problem with a verse I'll point it out. Just that most verses aren't as oddly constructed as Leviticus 18 and 20, have obsure words that we don't actually know the correct translation like 1 Cor. 6, or taken out of context like Romans 1.
Which is a false claim as I am not making an argument from silence. I have shown about a dozen passages that I believe clearly obviously and unambiguously exclude and condemn homosexual practice and unions.

Except none of them say "only a man or woman is allowed". Instead, they merely mention man and woman but do not state that is the only allowable coupling. To pretend they do is an argument from silence.

complete nonsense. Firstly we aren’t discussing sex between man and women, secondly heterosexual means having opposite sex attraction which only implies sex between a man and a woman, the terms are confused, and thirdly no one is suggesting sex between a man and a woman outside marriage is not sin. If they were I would ask them for some evidence, As you are prosing that sex outside marriage between a man and a man is ok please provide some evidence.


No. Quit building straw men or make false claims about what I'm saying. You are claiming based on maybe a dozen verses that all homosexual sex is wrong. I've shown how that isn't clear from the original languages and you have to use logical fallacies to push the idea that all homosexual sex is sinful.

To illustrate the point, I point out that rather than just a handful of verses, there are hundreds of verses that call heterosexual sex sin. I agree that some forms of heterosexual sex is sin. I merely stated that if you use your logic, that a handful of verses stating a type of sex is sin means all types of that sex is sin, then your logic would state that all types of heterosexual sex is sin. I'm merely pointing out the fallacy of your logic.

let me stop you there, again you are not debating and providing any evidence to support your view on the issue you are just dissing my argument and referring to other issues.

I think pretty much everyone here agrees that I've provided plenty of evidence. And I'm not the one creating straw men of your positions or trying to claim I know your motivations. I'm just trying to debate what you write.

Nope that’s your assumption, the passage does not say that. You hope that because pederasty and homosexual practice did occur with Roman centurions that Jesus healed someone in that situation it might comdone it. Well I think paedophiles would be very interested in that.

I think pedophiles are more interested in the fact that there is no condemnation of child sex in the Bible. And I would be careful of pointing to homosexual relationships as pedophilic; in fact they were the same age as with married women. In fact, marriage age in the Bible was quite young, around the time of puberty. Bible scholars believe Mary would have been between 12 and 14 when she had Jesus and married Joseph.

For the record I am sure Jesus healed all who came to Him whether sinners or not God. The word is ‘pais’ which could be child, it is also the same word that is used for Jesus (Acts 3) My assumption from silence cancels out yours.

Yes, but in this case he commented on the great faith, something he did not do with most who came to Him. Further, we do know that Christ only healed those who believed in Him, that it was at least partially their faith in Christ which healed them. And, as such, since you claim we are saved by our faith, these people are bound for heaven (since they are not condemned for their sins).

As for the servant/slave, the fact is the word "pais", while it could mean "boy" does not denote an age. Rather, its usage is much like in English when a person talks about "my boy". It was often used to denote a son (much like "my boy" is 23 as of last week); or could be used like slave owners would refer to a slave regardless of age, like a plantation owner might brag to another, "my boy cleared 20 acres yesterday".

The key to the story of the Centurion's servant is that "pais" is not the only way this "boy" was referred as. Instead, the "boy" is also called an "entimos doulos". Entimos means esteemed or loved, doulos means slave. As such, we know that "pais" does not mean his son, but rather a slave. The fact this is a slave referred to as a "pais", which was slang for a homosexual lover in Koine Greek, makes it appear this was a homosexual relationship. And from the ages of other "pais" of the time period, this would not have been pedophilia, rather the "boy" would have been as old as girls who were getting married, if not older.
 
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Maren

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What dietary laws? They are no more if you take the whole word so...............Let’s take a look at some to the scriptures people have started having difficulties with. I say started because they had no trouble understanding what the scriptures meant back when they were written, and the Church founded.

1. Have the laws against homosexuality been abolished along with the laws against eating pork?

Leviticus 18:22 -26
22. Thou shalt not3808 lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as with4904 womankind:802 it1931 is abomination.8441
23. Neither3808 shalt thou lie5414, 7903 with any3605 beast929 to defile2930 thyself therewith: neither3808 shall any woman802 stand5975 before6440 a beast929 to lie down7250 thereto: it1931 is confusion.8397
24. Defile not ye yourselves2930, 408 in any3605 of these things:428 for3588 in all3605 these428 the nations1471 are defiled2930 which834 I589 cast out7971 before4480, 6440 you:
25. And the land776 is defiled:2930 therefore I do visit6485 the iniquity5771 thereof upon5921 it, and the land776 itself vomiteth out6958 (853) her inhabitants.3427
26. Ye859 shall therefore keep8104 (853) my statutes2708 and my judgments,4941 and shall not3808 commit6213 any of these4480, 3605, 428 abominations;8441 neither any of your own nation,249 nor any stranger1616 that sojourneth1481 among8432 you:


The Problem: The law against homosexuality is found in the levitical law along with laws against eating pork and shrimp.

Lev 11:2 Speak1696 unto413 the children1121 of Israel,3478 saying,559 These2063 are the beasts2416 which834 ye shall eat398 among all4480, 3605 the beasts929 that834 are on5921 the earth.776
Lev 11:3 Whatsoever3605 parteth6536 the hoof,6541 and is cloven-footed,8156, 8157, 6541 and cheweth5927 the cud,1625 among the beasts,929 that shall ye eat.398

Lev 11:10 And all3605 that834 have not369 fins5579 and scales7193 in the seas,3220 and in the rivers,5158 of all4480, 3605 that move8318 in the waters,4325 and of any4480, 3605 living2416 thing5315 which834 is in the waters,4325 they1992 shall be an abomination8263 unto you:

But these ceremonial/dietary laws have been done away with as we see in Acts 10:9-10, and 1 Tim. 4:1-4 in the NT. Because of this some believe that the laws prohibiting homosexual activity are no longer binding either.

Let’s see if we can find a solution to this confusion?

First of all, if laws against homosexuality were merely ceremonial (and therefore abolished), then rape, incest and bestiality would not be morally wrong either, since they are condemned in the same chapter with homosexual sins. (Lev. 18:6-14, 22-23).

Second, homosexual sins among Gentiles were also condemned by God. (Rom. 1:26), and they did not have the ceremonial laws (Rom. 2:12-15). It was for this very reason that God brought judgment on the Canaanites (Gen. 18:1-3, 25).

Third, even in the Jewish levitical law there was a difference in punishment for violating the ceremonial law of eating pork or shrimp (which was a few days isolation) and that for homosexuality which was capital punishment (Lev. 18:29).

Fourth, Jesus changed the dietary laws of the OT (Mark 7:18; Acts 10:15), but the moral prohibitions against homosexuality are still enjoined on believers in the NT (Rom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10; Jude 7).

Fine, so the prohibition of shellfish is gone, God decided he doesn't hate it anymore (it isn't an abomination like Leviticus says). So why do Christians cut their hair, against Levitical laws that are not dietary? Why are not women required to go away during their period? Why is working on the sabbath no longer a major sin (requires the death penalty in Leviticus)? Why do we wear clothing made of different kinds of thread (for example, cotton/poly blends) against the Levitical prohibitions. The fact is that Christians ignore pretty much all the Levitical law, they only mention it for homosexuality.

As for the other scriptures, I've already explained them in my debate with brightmorningstar.
 
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OllieFranz

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What dietary laws? They are no more if you take the whole word so...............Let’s take a look at some to the scriptures people have started having difficulties with. I say started because they had no trouble understanding what the scriptures meant back when they were written, and the Church founded.

1. Have the laws against homosexuality been abolished along with the laws against eating pork?

Leviticus 18:22 -26
22. Thou shalt not3808 lie7901 with854 mankind,2145 as with4904 womankind:802 it1931 is abomination.8441
23. Neither3808 shalt thou lie5414, 7903 with any3605 beast929 to defile2930 thyself therewith: neither3808 shall any woman802 stand5975 before6440 a beast929 to lie down7250 thereto: it1931 is confusion.8397
24. Defile not ye yourselves2930, 408 in any3605 of these things:428 for3588 in all3605 these428 the nations1471 are defiled2930 which834 I589 cast out7971 before4480, 6440 you:
25. And the land776 is defiled:2930 therefore I do visit6485 the iniquity5771 thereof upon5921 it, and the land776 itself vomiteth out6958 (853) her inhabitants.3427
26. Ye859 shall therefore keep8104 (853) my statutes2708 and my judgments,4941 and shall not3808 commit6213 any of these4480, 3605, 428 abominations;8441 neither any of your own nation,249 nor any stranger1616 that sojourneth1481 among8432 you:


The Problem: The law against homosexuality is found in the levitical law along with laws against eating pork and shrimp.

Lev 11:2 Speak1696 unto413 the children1121 of Israel,3478 saying,559 These2063 are the beasts2416 which834 ye shall eat398 among all4480, 3605 the beasts929 that834 are on5921 the earth.776
Lev 11:3 Whatsoever3605 parteth6536 the hoof,6541 and is cloven-footed,8156, 8157, 6541 and cheweth5927 the cud,1625 among the beasts,929 that shall ye eat.398

Lev 11:10 And all3605 that834 have not369 fins5579 and scales7193 in the seas,3220 and in the rivers,5158 of all4480, 3605 that move8318 in the waters,4325 and of any4480, 3605 living2416 thing5315 which834 is in the waters,4325 they1992 shall be an abomination8263 unto you:

But these ceremonial/dietary laws have been done away with as we see in Acts 10:9-10, and 1 Tim. 4:1-4 in the NT. Because of this some believe that the laws prohibiting homosexual activity are no longer binding either.

Let’s see if we can find a solution to this confusion?

First of all, if laws against homosexuality were merely ceremonial (and therefore abolished), then rape, incest and bestiality would not be morally wrong either, since they are condemned in the same chapter with homosexual sins. (Lev. 18:6-14, 22-23).

Second, homosexual sins among Gentiles were also condemned by God. (Rom. 1:26), and they did not have the ceremonial laws (Rom. 2:12-15). It was for this very reason that God brought judgment on the Canaanites (Gen. 18:1-3, 25).

Third, even in the Jewish levitical law there was a difference in punishment for violating the ceremonial law of eating pork or shrimp (which was a few days isolation) and that for homosexuality which was capital punishment (Lev. 18:29).

Fourth, Jesus changed the dietary laws of the OT (Mark 7:18; Acts 10:15), but the moral prohibitions against homosexuality are still enjoined on believers in the NT (Rom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10; Jude 7).

And I ask you the same question I asked BrightMorningStar: Where is the Biblical justification for saying that we are free from only part of the Law? Where is the passage which tells us that while the dietary laws are no longer binding, others still are? And how do you reconcile your view with the passages I quoted above?

You claim that the distinction is one of moral vs ceremonial. But nowhere in the Bible is this distinction made. But even assuming that the distinction is valid, how do you determine which is which? On which side would you place the following laws (keeping in mind that whichever side you select for many of these there are good God-fearing Christians -- conservative Christians -- who will tell you that you are wrong):

1 Kosher dietary laws (Leviticus 11:2-47)
2 Masturbation and "Wet Dreams", also Menses (Leviticus 15:16-28)
3 Yom Kippur (Leviticus 16:34)
4 Incest (Leviticus 18:6-18)
5 Exposing a menstruating woman's genitals (presumably a euphemism for having sex with her)(Leviticus 18:19)
6 Adultery (Leviticus 18:20)
7 Sabbath laws (and by extension, Sunday blue laws)(Leviticus 19:3)
8 Haircuts, piercings, tatoos (Leviticus 19:27-28)
9 Passover (Leviticus 23:4-8)
10 Phylactaries and the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9)
11 "Mixed" marriages (Deuteronomy 7:3)
12 Heart Circumscision (Deuteronomy 10:16)
13 Moving boundary markers (and thus stealing property) (Deuteronomy 19:14
14 Cross-dressing (Deuteronomy 22:5)
15 Building a safety railing around a rooftop patio or a balcony (Deuteronomy 22:8)
16 Mixing different seeds in the same field. (Deuteronomy 22:9)
17 Plowing with ass and ox unequally yoked (Deuteronomy 22:10)
18 "Taking" one's father's wife. (Deuteronomy 22:30)
19 Re-marrying an ex-wife (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)
20 Leverite marriage (Deuteronomy 25:5-10)
21 Lying a man with the lyings of a woman (Leviticus 18:22)
 
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savedandhappy1

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Yes, but in this case he commented on the great faith, something he did not do with most who came to Him. Further, we do know that Christ only healed those who believed in Him, that it was at least partially their faith in Christ which healed them. And, as such, since you claim we are saved by our faith, these people are bound for heaven (since they are not condemned for their sins).

Mark 2:1-5
1 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house.
2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them.
3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men.
4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

Not so sure we can go with the He only healed those who believed can we? At least not if we look at Mark 2, where we see it was the friends faith.
 
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savedandhappy1

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Fine, so the prohibition of shellfish is gone, God decided he doesn't hate it anymore (it isn't an abomination like Leviticus says). So why do Christians cut their hair, against Levitical laws that are not dietary? Why are not women required to go away during their period? Why is working on the sabbath no longer a major sin (requires the death penalty in Leviticus)? Why do we wear clothing made of different kinds of thread (for example, cotton/poly blends) against the Levitical prohibitions. The fact is that Christians ignore pretty much all the Levitical law, they only mention it for homosexuality.

No, the fact is that just because we stand with the bible believing that homosexuality is a sin, doesn't mean we don't consider anything else a sin.

Did you miss this part of my post?

savedandhappy1 said:
First of all, if laws against homosexuality were merely ceremonial (and therefore abolished), then rape, incest and bestiality would not be morally wrong either, since they are condemned in the same chapter with homosexual sins. (Lev. 18:6-14, 22-23).

So do you know why they weren't to wear mix fabrics? What about not wearing clothing of mixed threads, specifically wool and linen? Yet the priestly garment was made with mixed wool and linen. It is taught that we’re not to mix ours in order to make the priestly garments more holy and unique. But what difference does that make today? Do you think there’s something to this not mixing stuff? It seems that HaShem doesn’t like us to mix things and He gives us specific things we’re not to mix but we’re not told specifically why. Could it be that there’s something to be learned here and maybe it’s to be learned by obeying it first and the understanding comes later? Well, let’s follow this idea for a few minutes.

I think the point is as much about not mixing things than it is about keeping certain items separate from others. One major point is that we are to keep things pure. We are to distinguish between what is holy and what is common, what is righteous and what is unrighteous and we are not to mix the two. (can you think of a particular passage in 2 Corinthians 6 that talks about unequally yoking things together - light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, believer and unbeliever? I would venture a guess that Shaul had holiness in mind when he wrote to the believers in Corinth.)

So things to think about when speaking of cutting hair below:

The Orthodox Jews interpret this mitzvah (commandment) to avoid cutting the beard at face value. It is normal for Orthodox males to have long, untrimmed beards and long hair at the sides of their heads. To their credit, the Orthodox are zealous to obey the Torah. They do not allow current cultural or popular trends to influence the way they live. This has the effect of "setting them apart" from all others. The long beards are a tell-tale sign of an individual who is striving
http://www.bibletruth.cc/Body_4Dead.htm#Scriptural_Requirements_for_Cutting_the_Hair_and_Beard

At this point it might be asked, Does the New Testament not make clear that Christians are free from all such restrictions? Does Paul not say, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days; which are a shadow of things to come" (Colossians 2:16,17)? Of course he does - and he speaks in a similar vein in other places also - but the question is, what does he mean in such passages by days and, in particular, by Sabbath days?
We must remember that a change took place in the worship of the Church of God after the resurrection of Christ. One aspect of that change was the substitution of the first day of the week for the seventh day as the day to be kept holy to God. But how were believers to treat the seventh day of the week after God instituted the Christian Sabbath - or the Lord's Day, as John calls it in Revelation 1:10, echoing the expression My holy day in Isaiah 58:13? The answer was that first-generation Christians were free to keep holy the seventh day of the week in addition to the first day, but no one had any right to judge those who did not keep the seventh day as well as the first day. God had changed the particular day of the week which was to be kept holy, but the Sabbath institution remained absolutely unchanged. The principle remained the same: that "a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so . . . He hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him" (Westminster Confession of Faith 21:7).
There can be no doubt that the first day of the week was the day set apart in the early New Testament Church for the worship of God. It was "upon the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread" in Troas, "and Paul preached unto them" (Acts 20:7). It was on the first day of the week also that the collection for the poor saints of Jerusalem was to be taken in the Corinthian Church. (See 1 Corinthians 16:1,2). The change of day took place in order that the Christian Sabbath might be a memorial of the resurrection, which, of course, took place on the first day of the week. So it need be no surprise to find the Saviour on the evening of the Resurrection Day appearing where the disciples were meeting together, and coming to them again eight days later (that is, exactly one week later, for the Jews counted both the first and the last days of any period as full days). Christ honoured their gatherings with His physical presence just as He has honoured many other such Sabbath gatherings since then with His spiritual presence. And how wonderfully He honoured the preaching of the gospel on the Day of Pentecost (which was always the first day of the week) when 3000 souls were brought into His kingdom!

http://www.fpchurch.org.uk/Beliefs/One_Day_in_Seven.php
 
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