What - Precisely - Are Christians Attempting To Save Homosexuals From ...?

[KCKID]

A nonreligious friend of mine from another country asked a question of me the other day. We were discussing 'sin' in general and 'homosexuality' specifically in regard to the Bible. My friend asked WHY the Christian God would bother having created human beings in the first place if He - knowing the end from the beginning - knew that the majority of human beings 'wouldn't make it'. He also asked the question as to WHY God would have even THOUGHT of initiating a place (hell) for those who 'don't make it' just so that He could inflict torment on them for eternity. In other words, what would be the logical object behind 'a hell'?

Obviously, since I would be considered a pagan by some Christians on this site because I'm not 'anti-gay', I couldn't answer my friend's questions. In actuality my friend didn't need to raise these questions to make me think about them. I have many such questions myself that involve the 'logic' - or, more like, the (il)logic - of Christianity.

The majority of 'concerned' Christians on this subforum would probably claim that they are attempting to save homosexuals from ...well, what precisely? Eternal damnation? Please, just think about this for a moment. Actually, a moment is all that it should take for logic and reasoning to kick in. Mainstream Christianity teaches that God is love. Right? However, sinners - homosexuals in this case - are being warned by Christians about this God of love who has set up a place that will cause them eternal suffering FOREVER unless they become either 'straight' or celibate. While this very notion flies in the face of both love and logic this seems to sit quite comfortably, thank you very much, with the majority of Christians. I mean, if we were to change the name 'God' to 'Hitler'* then we would have an outcry in the Church like has never been heard before. But, God's name is not 'Hitler', it's 'God'- even though God's method of punishment goes WAY beyond anything Hitler could EVER have been capable of doing.

So, what answer would I give my friend if I were wanting to 'sell' God and Christianity to him? While I realize that the question involves sin in general this is a subforum devoted to homosexuality. So, my question is "What Are Christians Attempting To Save Homosexuals From ...? There are also 'sub-questions' that emerge from the bigger question, of course.

* "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the the will of the Almighty Creator."

Adolph Hitler
"Mein Kampf", chapter 2

 

[BreadAlone]

Hell wasn't made for humans, firstly. Then, when our own actions rendered us on the path to hell, God created a fork in the road. He even leads us to it. We just have to walk.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

A nonreligious friend of mine from another country asked a question of me the other day. We were discussing 'sin' in general and 'homosexuality' specifically in regard to the Bible. My friend asked WHY the Christian God would bother having created human beings in the first place if He - knowing the end from the beginning - knew that the majority of human beings 'wouldn't make it'.

Fair question. Why is it that human beings have children knowing that there are great odds that their children will die someday. And, on the way to that reality, there will be pain and suffering all along the way. Why would anyone want to do this to another human being? Maybe the joy of being alive?

He also asked the question as to WHY God would have even THOUGHT of initiating a place (hell) for those who 'don't make it' just so that He could inflict torment on them for eternity. In other words, what would be the logical object behind 'a hell'?

Ask the horrified person feeling so much pain from being an outcast from the group. Some even kill thmselves from the pain and depression. It appears humans can get a taste of hell right here on earth.

Obviously, since I would be considered a pagan by some Christians on this site because I'm not 'anti-gay', I couldn't answer my friend's questions.

How can a person look at their anatomy and violate its design just because of funny feelings? If you need lube for holes that shouldn't be entered, you're doing something wrong. If you have the same genitalia as the other person you are having sex with, you are not really having sex. But, hey, why cloud logic with emotionalism.

In actuality my friend didn't need to raise these questions to make me think about them. I have many such questions myself that involve the 'logic' - or, more like, the (il)logic - of Christianity.

Hmm, like what? People should be held accountable for their choices? There is reason and order to the seen and unseen univers? How novel an idea that is.

The majority of 'concerned' Christians on this subforum would probably claim that they are attempting to save homosexuals from ...well, what precisely?

Following lies and liars. Corruption and the corrupted. Following the doctrines of demons. You know, reality.

Eternal damnation? Please, just think about this for a moment.

I have. I am picturing a crying child on a playground ignored by all the other kids. Christian reality is an easy grasp.

Actually, a moment is all that it should take for logic and reasoning to kick in. Mainstream Christianity teaches that God is love. Right?

Kind of like ticketing an idiot for not wearing a seat belt.

However, sinners - homosexuals in this case - are being warned by Christians about this God of love who has set up a place that will cause them eternal suffering FOREVER unless they become either 'straight' or celibate.

Umm, how about "loving" a person of the opposite gender. Looking at logic, that should be quite easy for anyone of our species. This is where "duh" finds its scholarly application. Love is an important concept to Christians. Using logic, it cannot exist in an atheist mindset.

While this very notion flies in the face of both love and logic this seems to sit quite comfortably, thank you very much, with the majority of Christians.

I have shown the error of your reasoning in a few short sentences in a few short minutes.

I mean, if we were to change the name 'God' to 'Hitler'* then we would have an outcry in the Church like has never been heard before.

If I chaged Stalin to Hitler, Stalin killed more people than Hitler beacuse of atheism. Your strawman is quite deadly. But he isn't a Christian.

But, God's name is not 'Hitler', it's 'God'- even though God's method of punishment goes WAY beyond anything Hitler could EVER have been capable of doing.

God's name is YHWH. "G, O and D" do not make up God's Name. Jesus, "Yeshua," means God (YHWH) Saves.

So, what answer would I give my friend if I were wanting to 'sell' God and Christianity to him?

Look at humanity. Christian reality is very logical. In fact, it is another Name for Jesus.

While I realize that the question involves sin in general this is a subforum devoted to homosexuality.

Whether in general or quite specifically, for Christians, gay sex is a sin. Ont that got Israelites in deep trouble. And, some pagans too. Looking at STD's skyrocketing in the Gay Community, it still is.

So, my question is "What Are Christians Attempting To Save Homosexuals From ...? There are also 'sub-questions' that emerge from the bigger question, of course.

Satanic deception. It is a subforum of Christian outreach to deal with satanic lies brought to the Church via false teachers. Like those saying gay sex is OK for Christians to enegage in. That would be a lie.

* "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the the will of the Almighty Creator."

Adolph Hitler
"Mein Kampf", chapter 2

And if the German people would not have followed Adolf's false teachings, and, instead (liike some Christians) tested all things he said and did, and rejected his false teachings, millions of people would still be alive.

If people did not follow false teachers about gay sex, millions of people would not be living in spiritual darkness and many people would not be dead from gay behaviors. But, then again, you CAN choose spiritual darkeness and gay sex. It's part of the open-mindedness of Christian reality to see that people are free to choose right from wrong. Christians know all about humanity.

Logic of course.

 

[KCKID]

You must be a politician, Polycarp_fan. You gave a great deal of spiel while avoiding answering the question/s. As long as you believe that homosexuality (homosexual behavior?) is wrong according to God, why the need to torment them in hell for all eternity (infinitely) for this (finite) wrong?

Why would you desire to love a God that would do this?

Why would you desire that EVERY ONE ELSE love a God that would do this?

Where is the logic in this?

Note: Even in our man-made legal system it is supposedly designed as a means to rehabilitate people as well as to punish them. God's evil system (according to mainstream Christanity) makes no such allowances for people to be rehabilitated.

By the way, I don't adhere to mainstream Christinity's cruel version of hell. Seems to me that Christianity (God?) creates the fear. Then Christianity (God?) creates a way out. Seems very much like control.

 

[Zecryphon]

You must be a politician, Polycarp_fan. You gave a great deal of spiel while avoiding answering the question/s. As long as you believe that homosexuality (homosexual behavior?) is wrong according to God, why the need to torment them in hell for all eternity (infinitely) for this (finite) wrong?

Why would you desire to love a God that would do this?

Why would you desire that EVERY ONE ELSE love a God that would do this?

Where is the logic in this?

Note: Even in our man-made legal system it is supposedly designed as a means to rehabilitate people as well as to punish them. God's evil system (according to mainstream Christanity) makes no such allowances for people to be rehabilitated.

By the way, I don't adhere to mainstream Christinity's cruel version of hell. Seems to me that Christianity (God?) creates the fear. Then Christianity (God?) creates a way out. Seems very much like control.

God is an eternal being, therefore any punishment or reward He imposes upon a person will be eternal as well. Human judges often impose life sentences upon career criminals because they can and because the punishment fits the crime. God who is eternal has the ability to sentence people to eternity in Hell, because He deals in the realm of the eternal and the punishment fits the crime. The people that will be going to Hell as a result of the Great White Throne Judgment will not be going there for making a mistake or two. They will be going there for committing and not repenting for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of sins or crimes if you will against God. Eternity is a totally fair punishment for people who do not repent of committing hundreds of millions of crimes. Don't you agree?

Think of the most evil person you can. We'll use the cliche example of Hitler. Everyone wants to imagine Adolf Hitler in Hell. Why? Because that's what he deserves for his crimes against humanity. Now, in the eyes of God, a person who commits a sin, commits a crime against God and God has made it perfectly clear what the punishment will be. Eternity in Hell. It's not like this is a suprise or a trick up God's sleeve. He's let you know what's waiting for you, if you die without Christ. God sees those who sin against Him as evil, like we see Hitler. It's totally fair that God sends evil people to the place that was designed to contain evil. But God also provides a way to avoid Hell altogether, faith in Jesus Christ. The only way you could make God out to be a cruel and vindictive monster is if He didn't provide a way to avoid Hell. That isn't the case here.

 

[artybloke]

They're trying to save them from being caring, loving people who don't have any major screw-ups into the same screwed-up sex-and-self obsessed religious fanatics they are.

 

[Caylin]

Hell wasn't made for humans, firstly. Then, when our own actions rendered us on the path to hell, God created a fork in the road. He even leads us to it. We just have to walk.

Actions that an all knowing god knew we were going to take in the first place.

I was going to respond to polycarp, but what is there to say to "atheists can't feel love," other than disbelief and mirth?

 

[Maren]

God is an eternal being, therefore any punishment or reward He imposes upon a person will be eternal as well.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. That would be like saying that since every human judge only has a human lifetime, any punishment he gives out must be a human lifetime as well. God could have easily chosen a method similar to Purgatory, punish some offenders until they've paid for their sins and then release them.

Human judges often impose life sentences upon career criminals because they can and because the punishment fits the crime. God who is eternal has the ability to sentence people to eternity in Hell, because He deals in the realm of the eternal and the punishment fits the crime.

But again, this doesn't work. While human judges to sometimes impose life sentences, most of the time they do not. Whereas the view of the Christian God shows Him only capable of meting out a single punishment regardless of the crimes committed.

The people that will be going to Hell as a result of the Great White Throne Judgment will not be going there for making a mistake or two.

Or so you believe. That is something that Christians all disagree on. Not to mention, if people didn't go to hell for only a mistake or two, why would there be such an emphasis on homosexuality? Why are all non-Christians, regardless of how good their lives are, considered that they are going to go to hell for that "single mistake" of not believing in the right God?

They will be going there for committing and not repenting for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of sins or crimes if you will against God. Eternity is a totally fair punishment for people who do not repent of committing hundreds of millions of crimes. Don't you agree?

Except this is a straw man, you are ignoring that there are degrees of the number of sins committed but everyone gets punished the same. Again, let's go back to someone like a Christian homosexual -- who most here claim will go to hell. He tries to live his life properly and never commits hundreds of thousands, much less millions, of crimes, and he repents of most of those. So why does he get the same punishment as a mass murderer who did commit millions of crimes?

Think of the most evil person you can. We'll use the cliche example of Hitler. Everyone wants to imagine Adolf Hitler in Hell. Why? Because that's what he deserves for his crimes against humanity. Now, in the eyes of God, a person who commits a sin, commits a crime against God and God has made it perfectly clear what the punishment will be.

Which questions why a loving God would set it up this way. According to the Bible, no human is able to not commit a crime against God (other than God himself). So basically, he set up the rules to make everyone guilty of a crime against him which requires eternal torture (not just punishment). In essence, his laws make everyone (per your logic here) equal to Hitler. It is making all offenses equal, regardless of if someone merely uses God's name in vain, if someone just doesn't believe in God, if a person "marries" someone of the same sex, if someone steals from others, or if someone murders everyone he can. So, per your argument, God sees the life of Ghandi the same as He views Hitler and both deserve the same punishment.

Eternity in Hell. It's not like this is a suprise or a trick up God's sleeve. He's let you know what's waiting for you, if you die without Christ. God sees those who sin against Him as evil, like we see Hitler. It's totally fair that God sends evil people to the place that was designed to contain evil. But God also provides a way to avoid Hell altogether, faith in Jesus Christ. The only way you could make God out to be a cruel and vindictive monster is if He didn't provide a way to avoid Hell. That isn't the case here.

Sorry, I can't agree with this. First, God doesn't actually tell us. Rather, he appointed a few spokespeople a few millennia ago to tell us, including Him masquerading as a human (so that people wouldn't recognize Him but would have to have faith). And then, even among those that believe this, they can't agree on what those spokespeople and God even said -- which is why there are tens of thousands of Christian churches. Sure, they believe in some of the same things -- but one good example, many claim that you will go to hell for a single unrepented sin and get the same punishment as a Hitler.

You definitely say that God has given clear instructions. For example you say it will take hundreds of thousands of sins to go to Hell, other Christians believe hell is just a myth, and yet others claim any sin will cause you to go to hell. And most of these people claim their beliefs are based on what the Bible "clearly says". How is that clear?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

God is an eternal being, therefore any punishment or reward He imposes upon a person will be eternal as well.

That seems like a complete non sequitur.

Human judges often impose life sentences upon career criminals because they can and because the punishment fits the crime. God who is eternal has the ability to sentence people to eternity in Hell, because He deals in the realm of the eternal and the punishment fits the crime.

Except it doesn't: an eternity of suffering can never be just punishment for a finite crime.

The people that will be going to Hell as a result of the Great White Throne Judgment will not be going there for making a mistake or two. They will be going there for committing and not repenting for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of sins or crimes if you will against God. Eternity is a totally fair punishment for people who do not repent of committing hundreds of millions of crimes. Don't you agree?

No. 'Very big' is not the same as 'infinite'.

Think of the most evil person you can. We'll use the cliche example of Hitler. Everyone wants to imagine Adolf Hitler in Hell.

Broad-brushing. It Hell is an eternity of suffering, then I do not wish anyone to be condemned there.

Why? Because that's what he deserves for his crimes against humanity. Now, in the eyes of God, a person who commits a sin, commits a crime against God and God has made it perfectly clear what the punishment will be.

Except, he hasn't: assuming Christianity got it right, the 'true' moral code is obfuscated within a religious text that is indistinguishable from other religious texts. Moreover, there is a great deal of disagreement as to just what the text is condemning. Some things are clear, while others are not. Homosexuality is one such issue: some translations portray a pro-gay Bible, some a neutral Bible, and still others an anti-gay Bible.

Eternity in Hell. It's not like this is a suprise or a trick up God's sleeve. He's let you know what's waiting for you, if you die without Christ. God sees those who sin against Him as evil, like we see Hitler. It's totally fair that God sends evil people to the place that was designed to contain evil.

No, it isn't. For one thing, only an infinite crime can ever be worthy of an infinite punishment (and even then, it's not a certainty). For another, who is God to dish our punishment? Who is he to determine who gets an eternity of suffering, and who gets an eternity of delight?

But God also provides a way to avoid Hell altogether, faith in Jesus Christ. The only way you could make God out to be a cruel and vindictive monster is if He didn't provide a way to avoid Hell. That isn't the case here.

I'll give you that: it would be crueller to condemn everyone to Hell without any chance of escape or salvation. But, as it happens, the 'escape route' is so bafflingly nebulous that there is disagreement on what it means to be saved, let alone how to be saved.

 

[Zecryphon]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. That would be like saying that since every human judge only has a human lifetime, any punishment he gives out must be a human lifetime as well. God could have easily chosen a method similar to Purgatory, punish some offenders until they've paid for their sins and then release them.

Why would He violate His own revelation about how people are saved. People are not saved by actions they perform. They are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Human judges often impose life sentences upon career criminals because they can and because the punishment fits the crime. God who is eternal has the ability to sentence people to eternity in Hell, because He deals in the realm of the eternal and the punishment fits the crime.
​

But again, this doesn't work. While human judges to sometimes impose life sentences, most of the time they do not. Whereas the view of the Christian God shows Him only capable of meting out a single punishment regardless of the crimes committed.

We have seen that He has meted out various punishments for those who oppose Him. He has made it clear that after Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension, if you are not saved by the blood of Christ by Judgment Day then you are going to Hell.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

The people that will be going to Hell as a result of the Great White Throne Judgment will not be going there for making a mistake or two.
​

Or so you believe. That is something that Christians all disagree on. Not to mention, if people didn't go to hell for only a mistake or two, why would there be such an emphasis on homosexuality?

So since all Christians disagree on something, that something can't be true? Who's the authority here, God or all Christians? There isn't such an emphasis on homosexuality. Remember where you are when you ask that question. You're in a forum dedicated to discussing homosexuality from a Christian perspective. Of course it's going to seem like homosexuality is more of a big deal to Christians in here, than it actually is in every day life.

Why are all non-Christians, regardless of how good their lives are, considered that they are going to go to hell for that "single mistake" of not believing in the right God?

Because they have violated the first commandment and have other gods other than the one true God as revealed in the scriptures.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

They will be going there for committing and not repenting for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of sins or crimes if you will against God. Eternity is a totally fair punishment for people who do not repent of committing hundreds of millions of crimes. Don't you agree?
​

Except this is a straw man, you are ignoring that there are degrees of the number of sins committed but everyone gets punished the same. Again, let's go back to someone like a Christian homosexual -- who most here claim will go to hell.

I don't claim a Christian homosexual will go to Hell. I believe the blood of Jesus Christ forgives ALL sins, not just heterosexual sins.

He tries to live his life properly and never commits hundreds of thousands, much less millions, of crimes, and he repents of most of those. So why does he get the same punishment as a mass murderer who did commit millions of crimes?

The key there is repentance and faith exhibited by the Christian homosexual. The mass assumption that is going on in this forum by a lot of conservative Christians is that Christian homosexuals are not repentant. There is just no way to prove that. It's an assumption, nothing more.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Think of the most evil person you can. We'll use the cliche example of Hitler. Everyone wants to imagine Adolf Hitler in Hell. Why? Because that's what he deserves for his crimes against humanity. Now, in the eyes of God, a person who commits a sin, commits a crime against God and God has made it perfectly clear what the punishment will be.
​

Which questions why a loving God would set it up this way.

But you forget that He didn't initially set it up this way. Go back to Eden, Hell was never a part of that plan. It existed to deal with Satan and his angels who had by that time, I believe, already rebelled against God and waged war in Heaven, although the Bible never directly addresses this. I believe to read about that you'd have to read the books of Enoch and the Quran.

According to the Bible, no human is able to not commit a crime against God (other than God himself).

Huh? What crimes has God committed against Himself?

So basically, he set up the rules to make everyone guilty of a crime against him which requires eternal torture (not just punishment).

He didn't stack the deck against anyone as non-Christians always love to assert. He gave Adam and Eve one law. One simple little law. All they had to do to remain in fellowship with God is not eat from one particular tree in the garden. That's it.

In essence, his laws make everyone (per your logic here) equal to Hitler.

If it made them equal to Hitler it would make everyone on the planet guilty of crimes against humanity. That's not what it does. What it does is it shows all people why they are in need of a savior.

It is making all offenses equal, regardless of if someone merely uses God's name in vain, if someone just doesn't believe in God, if a person "marries" someone of the same sex, if someone steals from others, or if someone murders everyone he can. So, per your argument, God sees the life of Ghandi the same as He views Hitler and both deserve the same punishment.

Yes because both Ghandi and Hitler committed the same crime. They both violated the first commandment. They chose to serve other gods.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Eternity in Hell. It's not like this is a suprise or a trick up God's sleeve. He's let you know what's waiting for you, if you die without Christ. God sees those who sin against Him as evil, like we see Hitler. It's totally fair that God sends evil people to the place that was designed to contain evil. But God also provides a way to avoid Hell altogether, faith in Jesus Christ. The only way you could make God out to be a cruel and vindictive monster is if He didn't provide a way to avoid Hell. That isn't the case here.
​

Sorry, I can't agree with this. First, God doesn't actually tell us. Rather, he appointed a few spokespeople a few millennia ago to tell us, including Him masquerading as a human (so that people wouldn't recognize Him but would have to have faith).

This is such rubbish. God does actually tell us and He uses human writers to do it. He didn't "masquerade" as a human. He took on human flesh and the people who were His followers knew that He was God, He didn't keep it from them. Peter confessed to Jesus that Jesus was the Son of the Living God. Jesus told His accusers that He was God. Two disciples saw Jesus transfiguration, this was hardly a secret.

And then, even among those that believe this, they can't agree on what those spokespeople and God even said -- which is why there are tens of thousands of Christian churches.

All Christian churches agree on the essentials of the Christian faith. Where there is disagreement is over secondary non-essential issues, like Baptism and Communion.

Sure, they believe in some of the same things -- but one good example, many claim that you will go to hell for a single unrepented sin and get the same punishment as a Hitler.

If you die without Christ, yes you will go to Hell.

You definitely say that God has given clear instructions. For example you say it will take hundreds of thousands of sins to go to Hell, other Christians believe hell is just a myth, and yet others claim any sin will cause you to go to hell.

Wrong, one sin is enough to send you to Hell. But you forget that since we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, we are already born separated from God by sin. We inherit the sinful nature from our parents. See Psalm 51:5.

And most of these people claim their beliefs are based on what the Bible "clearly says". How is that clear?

It's clear to me that we are born in sin and separated from God. All Christians agree with this. If they don't they are denying God's revelation about Himself and humanity. It's clear to me that God provided a way for humans to be reconciled back to Himself by sending His son to die for the sins of humanity. It's clear to me that God saves people by giving them the gift of faith in Christ. It's very clear to me that not everyone is going to be saved. It's actually very clear on a lot of points you assert it's not clear on, because you're test of whether or not scripture is true or clear is not the scriptures themselves, but whether or not all Chrisitans agree. As long as your standard is other people, there will always be confusion. If your standard is God and what He has plainly revealed, there is no confusion.

 

[Zecryphon]

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

God is an eternal being, therefore any punishment or reward He imposes upon a person will be eternal as well.
​

That seems like a complete non sequitur.

Yeah, I'm sure it does seem that way to you.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Human judges often impose life sentences upon career criminals because they can and because the punishment fits the crime. God who is eternal has the ability to sentence people to eternity in Hell, because He deals in the realm of the eternal and the punishment fits the crime.
​

Except it doesn't: an eternity of suffering can never be just punishment for a finite crime.

It never will as long as you view it from your human perspective. Try and view it from God's perspective and your tune will change. We're not talking about only one crime sending a person to Hell, because nobody is able to commit just one crime against God. People commit millions of crimes against God in their lifetime. Plus you forget, as many do, that we are born separated from God by our sinful nature that we inherited from Adam and Eve.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

The people that will be going to Hell as a result of the Great White Throne Judgment will not be going there for making a mistake or two. They will be going there for committing and not repenting for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of sins or crimes if you will against God. Eternity is a totally fair punishment for people who do not repent of committing hundreds of millions of crimes. Don't you agree?
​

No. 'Very big' is not the same as 'infinite'.

I don't understand your statement. I didn't use the phrase "very big" in relation to infinite. I don't know what you're addressing.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Think of the most evil person you can. We'll use the cliche example of Hitler. Everyone wants to imagine Adolf Hitler in Hell.
​

Broad-brushing. It Hell is an eternity of suffering, then I do not wish anyone to be condemned there.

So Hitler should be in Heaven then? Does that satisfy the demands of God's law? Does it seem fair to you that someone as evil as Hitler should wind up in the same place as someone like Mother Theresa? How is that fair?


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Why? Because that's what he deserves for his crimes against humanity. Now, in the eyes of God, a person who commits a sin, commits a crime against God and God has made it perfectly clear what the punishment will be.
​

Except, he hasn't: assuming Christianity got it right, the 'true' moral code is obfuscated within a religious text that is indistinguishable from other religious texts.

Only to people who have not received the Holy Spirit, is it so. Anyone can read the Bible and understand it. It's been translated into English after all. The moral code is not what gets a person saved, but that is the case in other religious texts. So there is no confusion here. Since following the law of God is not what gets you saved, Christianity is different from other religions in how a person is saved. Christians do not suffer from the same confusion over how to be saved that adherents to other faiths do. People in other faiths, since they are trying to earn their salvation, are always wondering "have I done enough"? Christians don't have that problem because we trust in what Christ did for us, not what we do for ourselves.

Moreover, there is a great deal of disagreement as to just what the text is condemning. Some things are clear, while others are not. Homosexuality is one such issue: some translations portray a pro-gay Bible, some a neutral Bible, and still others an anti-gay Bible.

Well the problem there is that you have not defined how you're using the word homosexuality. Are you using it to denote a sexual orientation or same-sex sexual relations? If you're using it to denote a sexual orientation, then yes the Bible does not condemn that. People go to Hell because they die in their sins. They die without Christ. People don't go to Hell for being attracted to people of the same sex.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Eternity in Hell. It's not like this is a suprise or a trick up God's sleeve. He's let you know what's waiting for you, if you die without Christ. God sees those who sin against Him as evil, like we see Hitler. It's totally fair that God sends evil people to the place that was designed to contain evil.
​

No, it isn't. For one thing, only an infinite crime can ever be worthy of an infinite punishment (and even then, it's not a certainty). For another, who is God to dish our punishment? Who is he to determine who gets an eternity of suffering, and who gets an eternity of delight?

Oh I can't believe you're seriously asking this question. God is the creator. You are the creation. You serve Him, He doesn't serve you. He may do with you as He pleases. Remember the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Who's will? God's will be done. Read the first four words of the Bible, if you can't agree with that statement, don't bother reading any more of it.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

But God also provides a way to avoid Hell altogether, faith in Jesus Christ. The only way you could make God out to be a cruel and vindictive monster is if He didn't provide a way to avoid Hell. That isn't the case here.
​

I'll give you that: it would be crueller to condemn everyone to Hell without any chance of escape or salvation. But, as it happens, the 'escape route' is so bafflingly nebulous that there is disagreement on what it means to be saved, let alone how to be saved.

Wrong. It is not bafflingly nebulous. It is very clear how people are saved in the Christian faith. We are saved by God's grace which He demonstrated by sending Christ to die for our sins. We are saved by the blood of Jesus, shed for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by Him. It's not baffling at all.

 

[Zaac]

A nonreligious friend of mine from another country asked a question of me the other day. We were discussing 'sin' in general and 'homosexuality' specifically in regard to the Bible. My friend asked WHY the Christian God would bother having created human beings in the first place if He - knowing the end from the beginning - knew that the majority of human beings 'wouldn't make it'. He also asked the question as to WHY God would have even THOUGHT of initiating a place (hell) for those who 'don't make it' just so that He could inflict torment on them for eternity. In other words, what would be the logical object behind 'a hell'?

Obviously, since I would be considered a pagan by some Christians on this site because I'm not 'anti-gay', I couldn't answer my friend's questions. In actuality my friend didn't need to raise these questions to make me think about them. I have many such questions myself that involve the 'logic' - or, more like, the (il)logic - of Christianity.

The majority of 'concerned' Christians on this subforum would probably claim that they are attempting to save homosexuals from ...well, what precisely? Eternal damnation? Please, just think about this for a moment. Actually, a moment is all that it should take for logic and reasoning to kick in. Mainstream Christianity teaches that God is love. Right? However, sinners - homosexuals in this case - are being warned by Christians about this God of love who has set up a place that will cause them eternal suffering FOREVER unless they become either 'straight' or celibate. While this very notion flies in the face of both love and logic this seems to sit quite comfortably, thank you very much, with the majority of Christians. I mean, if we were to change the name 'God' to 'Hitler'* then we would have an outcry in the Church like has never been heard before. But, God's name is not 'Hitler', it's 'God'- even though God's method of punishment goes WAY beyond anything Hitler could EVER have been capable of doing.

So, what answer would I give my friend if I were wanting to 'sell' God and Christianity to him? While I realize that the question involves sin in general this is a subforum devoted to homosexuality. So, my question is "What Are Christians Attempting To Save Homosexuals From ...? There are also 'sub-questions' that emerge from the bigger question, of course.

* "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the the will of the Almighty Creator."

Adolph Hitler
"Mein Kampf", chapter 2

Let your friend know that Christians lack the power to save anyone from anything. That's the work of Jesus Christ.

Also tell your friend not to assume, that because someone identifies as a homosexual, that the person is not saved. There are plenty of Christians who still sin and the committing of homosexual acts is just another sin.

Hell was created for the devil and his demons.

You and your friend seem to be attempting to put your own spin on how love is defined in contrast to the One Who is Love.

When dealing with sin, in order to establish a proper point of reference for everyone who has ever lived, there has to be an UNCHANGING beginning and end.

That point is Jesus Christ. Not our understanding. Not our logic. Not our reasoning. But Jesus Christ.

He has told us what Truth is and He has told us what love is. And attempting to redefine his definition of love does not change what love is.

We need to stop trying to accommodate everything and attempting to get God and His Word to bend to our understanding. Rather we should be bending to His KNOWING.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yeah, I'm sure it does seem that way to you.

Well yea, I just said that . You don't seem to phased that your statement is a logical fallacy, however. Can you explain how "God is eternal" implies "God's issued rewards & punishment are eternal".

It never will as long as you view it from your human perspective. Try and view it from God's perspective and your tune will change.

I am aware of the context of this discussion. Nevertheless, I stand by my claim. It's hardly convincing to say "God's right because he's God". That's as bad as Muslims who define Muhammed to be sinless: it's not that he did no sinful deed, but rather that his deeds were retroactively deemed sinless.
Likewise, you're defining God to be in the right.

We're not talking about only one crime sending a person to Hell, because nobody is able to commit just one crime against God. People commit millions of crimes against God in their lifetime.

I am aware of that, hence why I said "a finite crime", not "a single crime". If you find it confusing, replace the phrase with "finite crimes". I must say, though, I've never encountered a Christian who claims that people commit millions of crimes against God.

Plus you forget, as many do, that we are born separated from God by our sinful nature that we inherited from Adam and Eve.

Which makes me wonder just how good this God can be: why create humans with the capacity to inherit a sinful nature. It seems absurd to punish someone for the crimes of their forebearers, let alone for an ancestor that lived millennia ago.

I don't understand your statement. I didn't use the phrase "very big" in relation to infinite. I don't know what you're addressing.

No, but you were making that allusion: "Eternity is a totally fair punishment for people who do not repent of committing hundreds of millions of crimes." Hundreds of millions of crimes are, ultimately, finite. Eternity is infinite. The two are fundamentally different. One cannot arrive at infinite through the sum of finite units.

Is a single crime worthy of eternal punishment? If so, why? If not, what value of x satisfies both "x crimes are worthy of finite punishment" and "x+1 crimes are worthy of infinite punishment"?

My point is that either each individual crime is worthy of eternal punishment (in which case your god is stunningly barbaric and capricious), or they are not (in which case no amount of criminality is worthy of eternal punishment).

So Hitler should be in Heaven then?

No finite series of crimes is worthy of infinite punishment. If that requires Hitler entrance into Heaven, then so be it.

Does that satisfy the demands of God's law? Does it seem fair to you that someone as evil as Hitler should wind up in the same place as someone like Mother Theresa? How is that fair?

Who said anything about fair? It's your God who doles our eternal punishment for finite crimes.

Only to people who have not received the Holy Spirit, is it so.

The same could be said of Muslims and the Qu'ran, or Bahá'í and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, or x-ists and the x-ist texts.

Anyone can read the Bible and understand it. It's been translated into English after all.

There are a plethora of translations, not all of them translating the same text the same way, not all of them translating the same text at all (there are different Biblical compilations, after all; Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc). And let's not forget the plethora of interpretations (does Genesis refer to a literal 6-day creation, or is it metaphorical?).

The moral code is not what gets a person saved, but that is the case in other religious texts.

Not so. Few non-Abrahamic faiths describe how one can attain the salvation espoused in the Abrahamic faiths. That is, Hinduism doesn't tell Christian how to attain the salvation preached in Christianity.

So there is no confusion here. Since following the law of God is not what gets you saved, Christianity is different from other religions in how a person is saved. Christians do not suffer from the same confusion over how to be saved that adherents to other faiths do. People in other faiths, since they are trying to earn their salvation, are always wondering "have I done enough"? Christians don't have that problem because we trust in what Christ did for us, not what we do for ourselves.

That's quite an amusing caricature of other faiths you have there.

Well the problem there is that you have not defined how you're using the word homosexuality. Are you using it to denote a sexual orientation or same-sex sexual relations? If you're using it to denote a sexual orientation, then yes the Bible does not condemn that. People go to Hell because they die in their sins. They die without Christ. People don't go to Hell for being attracted to people of the same sex.

Not all of Christendom would agree. Some people genuinely believe that one's status as a homosexual is enough to guarantee an eternity in Hell. Given your rather extreme views about what is 'fair', I was inclined to think you were one of them.

Oh I can't believe you're seriously asking this question.

An appeal to ridicule. Haven't seen one of them in a while.

God is the creator. You are the creation. You serve Him, He doesn't serve you. He may do with you as He pleases. Remember the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Who's will? God's will be done. Read the first four words of the Bible, if you can't agree with that statement, don't bother reading any more of it.

The first four words of the Bible are: "In the beginning of". What am I supposed to do with that?

In any case, you have not answered my question. According to Christian mythology, yes, God is the Creator and we are the Created. So what? Do parents have the right to do anything to their children? Can the manufacturer of a gun go on a shooting spree just because he made the gun?

I ask you again: what right does God have to determine who should and should not do this, that, and the other? Christians are all very quick to defend his attitude to evil by holding free will as some precious commodity, but it's thrown out the window when it comes to the afterlife.

Wrong. It is not bafflingly nebulous. It is very clear how people are saved in the Christian faith. We are saved by God's grace which He demonstrated by sending Christ to die for our sins. We are saved by the blood of Jesus, shed for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by Him. It's not baffling at all.

Despite the slew of metaphor, it's not the simple. How, exactly, does one go from 'unsaved' to 'saved'? It's all very well saying that no one comes to the father but by Jesus, but what does that mean? You say that we are "saved by the blood of Jesus", but what does this mean? Moreover, if God is omnipotent, surely everyone is saved, regardless of their actions?

 

[Zecryphon]

Well yea, I just said that . You don't seem to phased that your statement is a logical fallacy, however. Can you explain how "God is eternal" implies "God's issued rewards & punishment are eternal".

I'm not phased by anything you say. Why should your assertion of a logical fallacy on my part be any different? God tells us in scripture that His rewards and punishments are eternal. What needs explaining?

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

It never will as long as you view it from your human perspective. Try and view it from God's perspective and your tune will change.
​

I am aware of the context of this discussion. Nevertheless, I stand by my claim. It's hardly convincing to say "God's right because he's God". That's as bad as Muslims who define Muhammed to be sinless: it's not that he did no sinful deed, but rather that his deeds were retroactively deemed sinless.
Likewise, you're defining God to be in the right.

I don't define God. God has a law and that law is used to show people their need for a savior. God knows that people could not keep the law to His standard, which is perfection. That's why it's written that all have fallen short of the glory of God. Don't beleive God? Take yourself through God's law. Have you met all the requirements of God's law perfectly? If not, you have a very serious problem on your hands and you need a savior, which God has provided in the person of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

We're not talking about only one crime sending a person to Hell, because nobody is able to commit just one crime against God. People commit millions of crimes against God in their lifetime.
​

I am aware of that, hence why I said "a finite crime", not "a single crime". If you find it confusing, replace the phrase with "finite crimes". I must say, though, I've never encountered a Christian who claims that people commit millions of crimes against God.

Then they're not being honest. The Christian is simultaneously saint and sinner. A lot of Christians believe that because their sins are no longer credited to them, because they have been saved by faith in Christ, that they no longer commit any sins. This is simply not true. Repentance and faith is the Christian life. Christians should repent daily and always be focused on the fact that they need Christ everyday of their lives, not just that one day when they repented of their sins in a sinner's prayer and got saved.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Plus you forget, as many do, that we are born separated from God by our sinful nature that we inherited from Adam and Eve.
​

Which makes me wonder just how good this God can be: why create humans with the capacity to inherit a sinful nature. It seems absurd to punish someone for the crimes of their forebearers, let alone for an ancestor that lived millennia ago.

Because humans were not created to be sinful in the first place. They were created to live in full fellowship and in paradise with God. So why not make it that humans inherit that perfect relationship through birth? It's not as crazy as it sounds. Humans inherit a lot of things through birth from their parents. Not all of it is good though.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

I don't understand your statement. I didn't use the phrase "very big" in relation to infinite. I don't know what you're addressing.
​

No, but you were making that allusion: "Eternity is a totally fair punishment for people who do not repent of committing hundreds of millions of crimes." Hundreds of millions of crimes are, ultimately, finite. Eternity is infinite. The two are fundamentally different. One cannot arrive at infinite through the sum of finite units.

And those finite sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ, which restores us to a right relationship with God. If this restoration results in eternal life, then why should the punishment against an eternal God not also be eternal? It sounds like you want universalism to be true. Where, according to some because not all universalists are united in how universalism actually works, those who are not saved by Christ go to Hell, where they will have their sins burned off by the flames of Hell, then at some point, never disclosed in scripture by God, they will be released into Heaven. I don't think it's that people will go to Hell that bothers you, I think it's how long God has declared they will be there. If universalism is true, people will be there for an indefinite period of time. Universalists don't agree on how long this purifcation takes. But can't we just say that eternity is an indefinite period of time as well?

Is a single crime worthy of eternal punishment? If so, why? If not, what value of x satisfies both "x crimes are worthy of finite punishment" and "x+1 crimes are worthy of infinite punishment"?

Depends on what your standard is. Imagine how utterly repugnant one sin must be to God, if the punishment He administers for sinning against Him is Hell.

My point is that either each individual crime is worthy of eternal punishment (in which case your god is stunningly barbaric and capricious), or they are not (in which case no amount of criminality is worthy of eternal punishment).

It doesn't matter how you look at it. You are going to find a way to convince yourself that God is a monster and not worthy of your worship. A point you have already made clear by your association with other gods. How do the gods of Wicca handle sin? Or do they even address the issue?


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

So Hitler should be in Heaven then?
​

No finite series of crimes is worthy of infinite punishment. If that requires Hitler entrance into Heaven, then so be it.

Okay. So according to you, people can do whatever evil thing they want and it doesn't matter. There is no punishment for evil. Then why punish a criminal in this life who commits a crime. You're saying it ultimately doesn't matter. God has a law and since God is holy and righteous He must uphold that law. Would you think a human judge were loving and kind if he released a criminal back into society to commit more crimes against society? No. You'd demand that judge be removed from the bench, because he's not doing his job and protecting the people he's sworn to defend. God by sending people to Hell, keeps His chosen people safe from evildoers. It's actually very loving.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Does that satisfy the demands of God's law? Does it seem fair to you that someone as evil as Hitler should wind up in the same place as someone like Mother Theresa? How is that fair?
​

Who said anything about fair? It's your God who doles our eternal punishment for finite crimes.

Well you have. Since you believe that God's justice system is so extremely unfair and that evil people should receive the same reward as redeemed people regardless of their crimes.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Only to people who have not received the Holy Spirit, is it so.
​

The same could be said of Muslims and the Qu'ran, or Bahá'í and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, or x-ists and the x-ist texts.

Do those faiths promise a teacher that will enlighten people to the "truths" of those faiths? We know the claims of Muslims and Ba'hai and others are fake, because their leaders are all dead and buried. That isn't the case with Jesus Christ. Jesus told His followers that God would raise Him from the dead three days after He died. And whaddya know. Jesus rose from the dead. No one's seen Mohammed or any other religious figure that claimed to be from God. Hmm? Wonder why that is.


Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Anyone can read the Bible and understand it. It's been translated into English after all.
​

There are a plethora of translations, not all of them translating the same text the same way, not all of them translating the same text at all (there are different Biblical compilations, after all; Catholic, Greek Orthodox, etc). And let's not forget the plethora of interpretations (does Genesis refer to a literal 6-day creation, or is it metaphorical?).

Sorry this doesn't work. All Bible translations say the same thing, they just say it differently. Compare any of them you want. Compare the ESV to the NASB to the NLT to the NRSV to the KJV to the NKJV. They all deliver the same message. Jesus Christ born, lived, died, and resurrected to pay for the sins of mankind. The plethora of interpretations does not invalidate the work. I'm sure there's a plethora of interpretations regarding any religious document. That by itself does not invalidate the truth of the work.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

The moral code is not what gets a person saved, but that is the case in other religious texts.
​

Not so. Few non-Abrahamic faiths describe how one can attain the salvation espoused in the Abrahamic faiths. That is, Hinduism doesn't tell Christian how to attain the salvation preached in Christianity.

My point is that other faiths espouse works righteousness, by doing works you will be saved. Christianity is different in that it is the work of another that saves us.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

So there is no confusion here. Since following the law of God is not what gets you saved, Christianity is different from other religions in how a person is saved. Christians do not suffer from the same confusion over how to be saved that adherents to other faiths do. People in other faiths, since they are trying to earn their salvation, are always wondering "have I done enough"? Christians don't have that problem because we trust in what Christ did for us, not what we do for ourselves.
​

That's quite an amusing caricature of other faiths you have there.

Prove me wrong. How are Hindus saved again? What is their punishment for not behaving well? Reincarnation isn't it? Look at Judaism. They believe following the law will save them. Look at Buddhism. To attain enlightenment you have to do what, again? Other religions are works based. I don't care if you believe the facts or not.




Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Well the problem there is that you have not defined how you're using the word homosexuality. Are you using it to denote a sexual orientation or same-sex sexual relations? If you're using it to denote a sexual orientation, then yes the Bible does not condemn that. People go to Hell because they die in their sins. They die without Christ. People don't go to Hell for being attracted to people of the same sex.
​

Not all of Christendom would agree.

It's pretty funny that a Wiccan is attempting to tell me what all of Christendom believes. I don't care what all of Christendom believes. That's not my standard for what is true.

Some people genuinely believe that one's status as a homosexual is enough to guarantee an eternity in Hell. Given your rather extreme views about what is 'fair', I was inclined to think you were one of them.

My views on what is fair are not in play here. It doesn't matter what I think is fair. How is what I personally think is fair, binding upon God? He is the creator, I am the creation. What right do I have to dictate to my creator what is fair? Job tried that. Didn't work out too well as I recall. Being a homosexual Christian will not send you to Hell. To say otherwise is to deny the power of Christ's blood to forgive and cleanse sin. God can not send a soundly saved Christian to Hell. It would be a clear violation of His promise.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Oh I can't believe you're seriously asking this question.
​

An appeal to ridicule. Haven't seen one of them in a while.

Call it what you want. It's an expression of absolute shock.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

God is the creator. You are the creation. You serve Him, He doesn't serve you. He may do with you as He pleases. Remember the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Who's will? God's will be done. Read the first four words of the Bible, if you can't agree with that statement, don't bother reading any more of it.
​

The first four words of the Bible are: "In the beginning of". What am I supposed to do with that?

Sorry. The first four are: "In the begging God." If you can't accept that there is a God, don't bother reading the Bible.

In any case, you have not answered my question. According to Christian mythology, yes, God is the Creator and we are the Created. So what? Do parents have the right to do anything to their children? Can the manufacturer of a gun go on a shooting spree just because he made the gun?

No because a gun manufacturer would then be in violation of the law. Parents can't do anything they want because they would be in violation of the law. God has laid down a law too, and anyone who violates it is punished. That's justice. You just disagree with the punishment. That's not God's problem and your disagreement is not binding upon Him to change His punishment.

I ask you again: what right does God have to determine who should and should not do this, that, and the other? Christians are all very quick to defend his attitude to evil by holding free will as some precious commodity, but it's thrown out the window when it comes to the afterlife.

Simple. He is the law giver. Who is the government to decide who should and should not do something? Nobody has freewill when it comes to salvation. That's Arminianism and it's heresy. Humans are born in sin with a sinful nature. That sinful nature dictates our actions. Nobody can choose salvation. Nobody chooses to be saved, because there is not one who seeks after God or seeks to do good. All have turned away from God. God had to come down here to us, gather us to Himself and save us. There is not one line of scripture that supports the idea that people choose salvation, but it's all the rage in modern-day evangelicalism.

Originally Posted by Zecryphon

Wrong. It is not bafflingly nebulous. It is very clear how people are saved in the Christian faith. We are saved by God's grace which He demonstrated by sending Christ to die for our sins. We are saved by the blood of Jesus, shed for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by Him. It's not baffling at all.
​

Despite the slew of metaphor, it's not the simple. How, exactly, does one go from 'unsaved' to 'saved'? It's all very well saying that no one comes to the father but by Jesus, but what does that mean? You say that we are "saved by the blood of Jesus", but what does this mean? Moreover, if God is omnipotent, surely everyone is saved, regardless of their actions?

Sorry, but there is no slew of metaphor there. Those are all litereal statements. The wages of sin is death. If you go back through the OT you will see that when people committed sins, the high priests had to offer a sacrifice to cover the sins of the people. The only sacrifice that would suffice as a sin offering were animals that were perfect and without blemish. This was a foreshadowing of Jesus, who would be the sacrificial lamb, perfect without defect, who would take on the sins of the world and pay for them with His death upon a cross. Now no one knows how blood cleanses sin, but that's apparently how it happens.

So a person is saved when they are given the divine revelation that Jesus Christ is in fact the messiah that has saved them from their sins. This revelation is a gift from God. When someone hears the law of God and the gospel of Christ preached and they know in their heart that they are indeed a wicked sinner in need of salvation, God is in the process of saving them. When they declare this before God, and beg for forgiveness for their sins and apologize to God for sinning against Him, God is faithful to forgive them and they are saved. See Romans 8:29-30. Salvation is wholly God's work. There is nothing man can do to save himself. God acts, we react.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[Maren]

Why would He violate His own revelation about how people are saved. People are not saved by actions they perform. They are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yet this contradicts what you stated earlier, that people are only sent to Hell for committing hundreds of thousands of sins.

We have seen that He has meted out various punishments for those who oppose Him. He has made it clear that after Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension, if you are not saved by the blood of Christ by Judgment Day then you are going to Hell.

So you admit that people are sent to Hell for committing only one sin. Which again raises the question why God would eternally punish a person for simply not believing in Him, particularly when that God doesn't provide any real evidence that he even exists. You make God sound like a narcissistic and sadistic God for creating people, hiding himself from them, and then torturing them forever in the worst possible ways for simply not believing in Him.

So since all Christians disagree on something, that something can't be true? Who's the authority here, God or all Christians?

Merely pointing out that you are claiming God hides Himself so much that even those who believe in Him can't agree on exactly what God wants or what He will send them to Hell for. Yet he'll sent people to hell if they don't believe in the correct version of Him. After all, many Protestants, particular Fundamentalists, believe those that don't believe as they do will go to hell, such as Catholics, Mormons, etc -- they claim these people believe in a different "God".

There isn't such an emphasis on homosexuality. Remember where you are when you ask that question. You're in a forum dedicated to discussing homosexuality from a Christian perspective. Of course it's going to seem like homosexuality is more of a big deal to Christians in here, than it actually is in every day life.

So were are all the other sub-forums for all the other sins? Why is homosexual relationships the one sin that Christians are attempting to pass constitutional amendments against? The fact that this is the only sub-forum for a single sin on this forum tends to dispute your claim that this sin isn't emphasized by Christians.

Because they have violated the first commandment and have other gods other than the one true God as revealed in the scriptures.

So, again you contradict yourself. People will only be sent to Hell for a single sin, not for "hundred of thousands or millions" of sins.

I don't claim a Christian homosexual will go to Hell. I believe the blood of Jesus Christ forgives ALL sins, not just heterosexual sins.



The key there is repentance and faith exhibited by the Christian homosexual. The mass assumption that is going on in this forum by a lot of conservative Christians is that Christian homosexuals are not repentant. There is just no way to prove that. It's an assumption, nothing more.

That doesn't seem to reflect what the majority of Christians (at least of those that believe homosexuality is a sin) believe. They seem convicted that Christian's who perform homosexual acts will go to Hell.

But you forget that He didn't initially set it up this way. Go back to Eden, Hell was never a part of that plan. It existed to deal with Satan and his angels who had by that time, I believe, already rebelled against God and waged war in Heaven, although the Bible never directly addresses this. I believe to read about that you'd have to read the books of Enoch and the Quran.

So you are trying to tell me an all-knowing God, who placed two people in a Garden and told them not to eat from a single tree didn't know in advance that they would eventually eat of it? Not much of an all knowing God if that is the case.

Huh? What crimes has God committed against Himself?

You need to go back an re-read that, it isn't what I said (though I admit I maybe should have phrased it differently). Rather, I said that no human is capable of being perfect, to not commit a crime against God (other than God as Christ). So this all-knowing God created us knowing we would all (including Adam and Eve) commit crimes that would cause us to be condemned to Hell. Then he provides an unclear path (since Christians can't agree on precisely what that path is) to avoid Hell knowing the great majority of his "children" will still go to Hell. How is that compatible with a loving God?

He didn't stack the deck against anyone as non-Christians always love to assert. He gave Adam and Eve one law. One simple little law. All they had to do to remain in fellowship with God is not eat from one particular tree in the garden. That's it.

And if they couldn't keep that one little law, having absolute knowledge of God's existence, then what hope is there for the rest of us. Again, the Bible clearly states that only one is perfect -- the rest of us are simply not capable of it. Why would a loving God create us in such a way that we are not capable of not sinning against Him?

If it made them equal to Hitler it would make everyone on the planet guilty of crimes against humanity. That's not what it does. What it does is it shows all people why they are in need of a savior.

Yet they are all punished equally.

Yes because both Ghandi and Hitler committed the same crime. They both violated the first commandment. They chose to serve other gods.[/quote]

Again you are contradicting yourself. You claim that Hitler committed different crimes, crimes against humanity. I think we can agree Ghandi did not. Yet here you state they both committed the same crime and so deserve the same punishment.

This is such rubbish. God does actually tell us and He uses human writers to do it.

And how many "writers" did he have tell us. Considering the billions and billions of people who have lived on the earth, calling the 40 some authors of the Bible a handful may be overstating.

He didn't "masquerade" as a human. He took on human flesh and the people who were His followers knew that He was God, He didn't keep it from them.

So people could recognize Him as God simply by looking at Him? Strange, seems to me that the Bible claims that Christ looked pretty much like everyone else -- that is masquerading -- He was hiding that He was God.

Peter confessed to Jesus that Jesus was the Son of the Living God. Jesus told His accusers that He was God. Two disciples saw Jesus transfiguration, this was hardly a secret.

I didn't say it was a secret. I said that He made Himself appear human so that people had to have faith, they couldn't tell He was God just by looking at Him. Despite the fact that a few of His closest followers knew He was God, the vast majority of people who saw Him never believed He was. For that matter, even Christ didn't tell people He was God as a general rule; it was only after Christ left that it really started being preached publicly.

All Christian churches agree on the essentials of the Christian faith. Where there is disagreement is over secondary non-essential issues, like Baptism and Communion.

So why do so many Christians think that Christians who believe differently from them are not going to Heaven? And John 3:5 would indicate that Baptism is not a "secondary non-essential" issue.

If you die without Christ, yes you will go to Hell.

Wrong, one sin is enough to send you to Hell. But you forget that since we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, we are already born separated from God by sin. We inherit the sinful nature from our parents. See Psalm 51:5.

It's clear to me that we are born in sin and separated from God. All Christians agree with this. If they don't they are denying God's revelation about Himself and humanity.

So basically it takes zero sins to go to Hell. A baby could live for a second, by this belief, and since that child never has a chance to know God or believe in God, that baby must automatically must go to Hell since it was born sinful. That definitely contradicts the idea of a loving God.

It's clear to me that God provided a way for humans to be reconciled back to Himself by sending His son to die for the sins of humanity. It's clear to me that God saves people by giving them the gift of faith in Christ.

So it is God's fault that some people won't be saved, since he didn't give them the gift of faith in Christ? While this may not be what you mean, there is a sect of Christianity that does believe this.

It's very clear to me that not everyone is going to be saved. It's actually very clear on a lot of points you assert it's not clear on, because you're test of whether or not scripture is true or clear is not the scriptures themselves, but whether or not all Chrisitans agree. As long as your standard is other people, there will always be confusion. If your standard is God and what He has plainly revealed, there is no confusion.

Sorry, I have not found a Christian yet that can completely reconcile all the scriptures; though many claim to. My point is not that we have to depend on other people, my point is that even among the believers none of them agree on a single interpretation of the Bible -- and all of them claim the Bible is their sole standard. Again, the evidence is that the Bible does not provide a clear standard; which further reinforces the idea that the God you believe in is not a loving God when those who all claim a belief in Him can't even agree on what His words say.

 

[katautumn]

I've come to realize that it's less Christian compassion and more about them not being put out by having to see same-sex couples showing affection in public. It makes them uncomfortable for one reason or another and they want to be rid of such public inconveniences and discomfort.

Here is why I say that. If it were truly about helping a homosexual, why aren't they actually helping them? Why is it usually gay members of the clergy who are willing to pray and sit with AIDS patients in the hospitals? Why show up at gay pride events with posters saying vile things and shout at same-sex couples? Why stand outside a California courthouse screaming, "YOU'RE AN ABOMINATION!" at couples going in to get married?

We get it. You don't like gay public displays of affection. Stop pretending that it's about not wanting them to burn in hell, rather your level of discomfort of society acknowledging that gay people are human beings.

 

[Zaac]

I've come to realize that it's less Christian compassion and more about them not being put out by having to see same-sex couples showing affection in public. It makes them uncomfortable for one reason or another and they want to be rid of such public inconveniences and discomfort.



Naah. Absent your occasional Gay Pride parade, gay people aren't big fans of PDA any more than straight people are. Most folks prefer to do their heavy petting in private.

In that regard, seeing gays being affectionate would hardly make anyone uncomfortable anymore than seeing straight people being affectionate.

Here is why I say that. If it were truly about helping a homosexual, why aren't they actually helping them? Why is it usually gay members of the clergy who are willing to pray and sit with AIDS patients in the hospitals? Why show up at gay pride events with posters saying vile things and shout at same-sex couples? Why stand outside a California courthouse screaming, "YOU'RE AN ABOMINATION!" at couples going in to get married?

We get it. You don't like gay public displays of affection. Stop pretending that it's about not wanting them to burn in hell, rather your level of discomfort of society acknowledging that gay people are human beings.

Tsk tsk. A few bad examples of what Christendom is supposed to be and some will ascribe that to all of Christendom. You've got extreme fringe elements of everything.

You're speaking of speccific situations of which you know. But I could likewise speak to you of the work that Christians are doing in an AIDS stricken Africa as well as here in the United States everyday. I could speak to you about the food, the clothing, the shelter that Christian churches provide for the needy on a daily basis.

The majority of Christians want for gay people the same thing that Christ wants for straight people: His best.

 

[Morrigu]

Naah. Absent your occasional Gay Pride parade, gay people aren't big fans of PDA any more than straight people are. Most folks prefer to do their heavy petting in private.

That is actually because most of us know that if we do more public displays of affection we risk being insulted or even beat in the streets (I have know this to happen)

In that regard, seeing gays being affectionate would hardly make anyone uncomfortable anymore than seeing straight people being affectionate.

In what world, please... tell me so that i can go live there....

Tsk tsk. A few bad examples of what Christendom is supposed to be and some will ascribe that to all of Christendom. You've got extreme fringe elements of everything.

You're speaking of speccific situations of which you know. But I could likewise speak to you of the work that Christians are doing in an AIDS stricken Africa as well as here in the United States everyday. I could speak to you about the food, the clothing, the shelter that Christian churches provide for the needy on a daily basis.

Yeah, but so do many other institutions. not to undermine the actual good that the churche does to society, but... well two rights don't make up for one wrong. The vatican still talks about homosexuals in a despective way, most christians still insist in blaming us gay people for the evils of sopciety, and in everyday life I bet to you that a person would rather scream against someone they fear than help the ones who need it.

The majority of Christians want for gay people the same thing that Christ wants for straight people: His best.

I like you, really...

no seriously, you are Ok.

 

[Zaac]

That is actually because most of us know that if we do more public displays of affection we risk being insulted or even beat in the streets (I have know this to happen)

SO more gay people would be running around sticking their tongues down each others throats and making out in public if they didn't think they would be assaulted?

I gotta disagree with that premise. Not to say that it is no doubt the case in some instances. But gay people are no different from straight people in this regard. Folks, gay or straight, just don't make a habit out of heavy petting in public because it's a private thing for most people witht the exception of those who are trying to get a rise out of folks or in the face of the establishment, or into being watched.

In what world, please... tell me so that i can go live there....

Yall don't give straight people enough credit. In this world that seems to be accommodating of everything but the way of Christ, yall really think that straight people care about gay PDA? Some folks do, but the same applies with straight PDA.

That's why I said most folks prefer that people just keep that stuff in private no matter what their orientation.

Yeah, but so do many other institutions. not to undermine the actual good that the churche does to society, but... well two rights don't make up for one wrong.

It's not supposed to make up for wrong. But neither is it to be assailed for something it did not do.

The vatican still talks about homosexuals in a despective way, most christians still insist in blaming us gay people for the evils of sopciety, and in everyday life I bet to you that a person would rather scream against someone they fear than help the ones who need it.

What do you want the Vatican to say? That they don't care what God says and are setting out on a pro-homosexual behavior agenda?

Ain't nobody, with the exception of those fringe elements again, blaming gays for the ills of society. There is enough wrong in society for every sinner to shoulder some of the blame.

I like you, really...

no seriously, you are Ok.

I love you, but Jesus Christ loves you more.

 

[Morrigu]

SO more gay people would be running around sticking their tongues down each others throats and making out in public if they didn't think they would be assaulted?

I gotta disagree with that premise. Not to say that it is no doubt the case in some instances. But gay people are no different from straight people in this regard. Folks, gay or straight, just don't make a habit out of heavy petting in public because it's a private thing for most people witht the exception of those who are trying to get a rise out of folks or in the face of the establishment, or into being watched.

Of course it is a private thing, but think do heterosexuals fear public displays of affection? If they wish so they can hold hands, let me repeat that, hold hands in public without fear of any kind of reaction.
I don't know how things are on that side of the world, but over here even that is complicated.

Yall don't give straight people enough credit.

No darling, I just don't give people in general any credit. they tend to disapoint me.

In this world that seems to be accommodating of everything but the way of Christ, yall really think that straight people care about gay PDA? Some folks do, but the same applies with straight PDA.

No it doesn't, but I wish it would, it would mean we are equally accepted. And a forum like this one, where people of a certain belief group to talk about how homosexuality is or isn't sinful, would be completly irrelevant.

But it isn't that way, and heterosexuals everywhere have nothing to fear, yet gays everywhere have even their family to fear.

That's why I said most folks prefer that people just keep that stuff in private no matter what their orientation.

Of course, but they also show it in public if they want to because they should have nothing to hide. But Gays get bad reactions from it that straights don't.

It's not supposed to make up for wrong. But neither is it to be assailed for something it did not do.

Just pointing out the end of the stick we get. I don't denie the good that the Cristian seniment and religion does, but it's the hipocresy what i dont like.

What do you want the Vatican to say? That they don't care what God says and are setting out on a pro-homosexual behavior agenda?

They could start by agreing in what god says in the first place. Then they could have sex before they tell the rest of the world how to live their sexual lives.

Sorry, I don't make a habit of listening to the sexual advices of virgins old enough to be my great grandparents.

Ain't nobody, with the exception of those fringe elements again, blaming gays for the ills of society. There is enough wrong in society for every sinner to shoulder some of the blame.

Fringe elements, none fringe elements, homophobia is more widespread than what you think.

I love you, but Jesus Christ loves you more.

Thanks... i guess