What plain and precious things are missing from the Bible?

[skylark1]

Are you saying that Phoebe is not a "real Christian?" That is against the TOS, you know.

Skylark is a real Christian, almost the only one here...

Would you please enlighten us as to what an unreal Christian is? A what point did God step aside and delegated his power of judgments to you? Last I knew only God truly knows who is and who is not a Christian.

Like you like to say, you really need to stop with the insults and flames to those who do not exactly agree with you. It is so childish.

Since the comment which referred to me was included in the quote, I just wanted to say that I do not "exactly agree with" ldsfaqs, so I doubt that his insults are in response to "not exactly agree[ing] with him." I would prefer that everyone drop the insults and insinuating that others are not Christians (both LDS and non-LDS).

 

[RufustheRed]

Since the comment which referred to me was included in the quote, I just wanted to say that I do not "exactly agree with" ldsfaqs, so I doubt that his insults are in response to "not exactly agree[ing] with him." I would prefer that everyone drop the insults and insinuating that others are not Christians (both LDS and non-LDS).

I agree, wholeheartedly. That is what I have been saying all along. Thank you for this post.

Rufus

 

[Lionroot]

haa haa.... Not even LDS doctrine, only speculation by some LDS.

Do you still claim this is speculation? If so, Why?

(signature follows).....
Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[Son of Zadok]

So are the terms "knew" and "begetting." Last I heard, no one on this earth is here unless their parents "knew" each other and "begat" them.

Don't you think that this is all getting a little ridiculous? People trying to say what another person's intent is. That is dangerous territory. Ref: http://www.christianforums.com/t7588672/#post58430548 Based on the response given to you, it appears that this poster knew what your intent was. Right?



This is not true. Please read Elder Melvin J. Ballard's opinion on this Marriage - M (part 1)



Again, please read Marriage - M (part 1) for the veracity of what Phoebe Ann is speaking. She didn't dream it up, it was/is taught within the confines of the LDS church.

Rufus

The point is that for all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that have responded there has been an expression that in using the phrase “baby making” there is a feeling that the use of such term is offensive and misleading. I had hoped that “Christians” would be sensitive to specific terms that in various extent of use can be offensive - Thus I pleaded not that the entire concept be abandoned but that as “Christians” or those that claim to be Christian that it is not wise or Christ like to deliberately insist on using phrases that are offensive to us - especially when all involved insist that the terms do not vary that much.

Why then are such phrases used? - knowing that they are offensive? What other reason could there possibly be than to make an offense openly with excuses and then hidden in one’s heart take delight in it?

Now I want to draw particular attention as to why this can be seen and understood as offensive. In your statement

Last I heard, no one on this earth is here unless their parents "knew" each other and "begat" them.

Is not Jesus the “only” begotten of the Father? Would not “baby making” be contrary to G-d laws concerning adultery and fornication being that Mary was espoused to the man Joseph? But the scriptures say that Mary was a virgin. Does this not imply that baby making does not always apply as was stated and intended? All that we as “LDS” ask is that sacred things be treated with respect and thus with the use of proper terms - especially to us - thus allow us to define and set the terms that are proper to describe our sacred doctrine. Is that really too much to ask of “Christians”? REALLY!!!???


It is because of this blatant disrespect and offensive use of terms concerning sacred things that I have stated many times - Let those that hold things sacred speak first concerning their doctrine and beliefs. I do not like being drawn into discussions of sacred things with disrespectful (and unholy) terms - why is that a problem here? I deal regularly with atheists in my work and do not encounter such degrading disrespect. Why Here? Is this the a clear intent of this forum?

Son of Zadok

 

[Rescued One]

The point is that for all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that have responded there has been an expression that in using the phrase “baby making” there is a feeling that the use of such term is offensive and misleading.

I apologize for using the phrase baby-making. Seriously. I don't understand what is offensive about it. I thought LDS cherished baby-making. I would like to ask that everyone (non-LDS and LDS) stop this ridiculous discussion about those two words and start using the LDS approved words "a continuation of the seeds" and "procreation" and "multiply and replenish" and "knew" and "defraud ye not one the other" and "come together again." If anyone misunderstands these approved words, you may PM me.

 

[Lionroot]

This is a thread about teachings that are NOT I'm the Bible. Any teaching that can be legitimately defended in the Bible, cannot be missing from it.

So what does that leave us?

(signature follows).....
Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[skylark1]

This is a thread about teachings that are NOT I'm the Bible. Any teaching that can be legitimately defended in the Bible, cannot be missing from it.

So what does that leave us?

This thread appears to be directed at the LDS, and a passage from the Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 13
for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious​

Some time ago an LDS poster here put together a list elsewhere, and several LDS posters reposted his list. This expresses their view, in the words of someone who is LDS. I am not LDS. So when this list uses the words "true doctrine," "true nature," "accurate," or "necesssity," this is expressed from an LDS point of view. However, I think that it might help to clarify what sort of things that LDS believe are plain and precious things that are missing from the Bible.

"Here’s a list of a few items that strike me as being plain and precious as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that either don’t appear in the Bible or don’t appear in a plain enough manner so that they are easily or correctly understood:

1. Eternal marriage
2. Pre-mortal existence
3. True nature of God
4. Accurate Christology
5. Gospel is preached to the dead.
6. Proxy ordinance work for the dead.
7. True nature of priesthood.
A. Adam was a high priest
B. Abraham was a high priest
C. Noah was a high priest
8. True nature of scripture
9. True doctrine of plural marriage.
10. True nature of theosis (eternal progression)
11. True nature of prophecy
12. True nature of spirits
13. True correlation between grace, faith and works
14. The great apostasy
15. True nature of the Fall
16. Necessity of authority to act in the name of God.
17. Power of godliness
18. Translation of John the apostle
19. Authorship of the Apocalypse
20. Election and sustaining of Church leaders
21. Church structure
22. Necessity of living apostles
23. True doctrine of adoption
24. Separate creations (spirit, spiritual, mortal)
25. True doctrine of the gift of the Holy Spirit
26. True doctrine of the resurrection
27. True doctrine of baptism
28. True doctrine of the meaning of creation
29. True doctrine of the meaning of being born again
30. True doctrine of Jesus as our father.
31. True nature of prophets
32. True doctrine of justification
33. True doctrine of sanctification
34. Doctrine of the degrees of glory in the resurrection
35. Necessity of the Fall
36. Opposition in all things
37. Purpose of creation and the existence of man
38. The correct answer to the problem of evil
39. True concept of Satan and evil spirits.
40. The covenant of baptism
41. The covenant of the sacrament
42. The eternal effects of the atonement
43. The eternal nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ

The doctrines have been taught by prophets, Jesus and his apostles, but weren’t preserved.
Those are a couple of the plain and precious doctrines and concepts that didn’t make it through the apostasy. If I had some time to look at some books, I think I could come up with more. (originally Posted by Alma)"
​

http://www.christianforums.com/t66018-3/#post1490497

 

[bbbbbbb]

This thread appears to be directed at the LDS, and a passage from the Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 13
for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious
​

Some time ago an LDS poster here put together a list elsewhere, and several LDS posters reposted his list. This expresses their view, in the words of someone who is LDS. I am not LDS. So when this list uses the words "true doctrine," "true nature," "accurate," or "necesssity," this is expressed from an LDS point of view. However, I think that it might help to clarify what sort of things that LDS believe are plain and precious things that are missing from the Bible.

"Here’s a list of a few items that strike me as being plain and precious as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that either don’t appear in the Bible or don’t appear in a plain enough manner so that they are easily or correctly understood:

1. Eternal marriage
2. Pre-mortal existence
3. True nature of God
4. Accurate Christology
5. Gospel is preached to the dead.
6. Proxy ordinance work for the dead.
7. True nature of priesthood.
A. Adam was a high priest
B. Abraham was a high priest
C. Noah was a high priest
8. True nature of scripture
9. True doctrine of plural marriage.
10. True nature of theosis (eternal progression)
11. True nature of prophecy
12. True nature of spirits
13. True correlation between grace, faith and works
14. The great apostasy
15. True nature of the Fall
16. Necessity of authority to act in the name of God.
17. Power of godliness
18. Translation of John the apostle
19. Authorship of the Apocalypse
20. Election and sustaining of Church leaders
21. Church structure
22. Necessity of living apostles
23. True doctrine of adoption
24. Separate creations (spirit, spiritual, mortal)
25. True doctrine of the gift of the Holy Spirit
26. True doctrine of the resurrection
27. True doctrine of baptism
28. True doctrine of the meaning of creation
29. True doctrine of the meaning of being born again
30. True doctrine of Jesus as our father.
31. True nature of prophets
32. True doctrine of justification
33. True doctrine of sanctification
34. Doctrine of the degrees of glory in the resurrection
35. Necessity of the Fall
36. Opposition in all things
37. Purpose of creation and the existence of man
38. The correct answer to the problem of evil
39. True concept of Satan and evil spirits.
40. The covenant of baptism
41. The covenant of the sacrament
42. The eternal effects of the atonement
43. The eternal nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ

The doctrines have been taught by prophets, Jesus and his apostles, but weren’t preserved.
Those are a couple of the plain and precious doctrines and concepts that didn’t make it through the apostasy. If I had some time to look at some books, I think I could come up with more. (originally Posted by Alma)"
​

http://www.christianforums.com/t66018-3/#post1490497

Thanks for reposting the list. IMO it covers 43 things in LDS theology that are not found in the Bible. Although one might make an argument that some, such as #43 are, indeed, found in the Bible, one is quite hard-pressed to find them in the Bible as they are defined by the LDS.

 

[ldsfaqs]

Thanks for reposting the list. IMO it covers 43 things in LDS theology that are not found in the Bible. Although one might make an argument that some, such as #43 are, indeed, found in the Bible, one is quite hard-pressed to find them in the Bible as they are defined by the LDS.

I'm going to have to disagree with Alma..... who posted this list.
While I will agree with him that the "full" understanding of all aspects of SOME of the subjects are not necessarily in the Bible, most of the these the basic ideology behind the idea, i.e. the doctrine certainly is.

I know this for sure because I knew these things in the Bible well before knowing Mormonism existed.

1. Eternal marriage (In the Bible.... Whatsoever bound on earth, bound in Heaven. Though yes, doctrine not fully clear)
2. Pre-mortal existence (In the Bible....)
3. True nature of God (In the Bible....)
4. Accurate Christology (In the Bible....)
5. Gospel is preached to the dead. (In the Bible....)
6. Proxy ordinance work for the dead. (In the Bible....) Less Clear)
7. True nature of priesthood. (In the Bible....)
A. Adam was a high priest (In the Bible....)
B. Abraham was a high priest (In the Bible....)
C. Noah was a high priest (In the Bible....)
8. True nature of scripture (In the Bible....)
9. True doctrine of plural marriage. (In the Bible....)
10. True nature of theosis (eternal progression) (In the Bible....)
11. True nature of prophecy (In the Bible....)
12. True nature of spirits (In the Bible....)
13. True correlation between grace, faith and works (In the Bible....)
14. The great apostasy (In the Bible....)
15. True nature of the Fall (In the Bible....)
16. Necessity of authority to act in the name of God. (In the Bible....)
17. Power of godliness (In the Bible....)
18. Translation of John the apostle (In the Bible....)
19. Authorship of the Apocalypse (In the Bible....)
20. Election and sustaining of Church leaders (In the Bible....)
21. Church structure (In the Bible....)
22. Necessity of living apostles (In the Bible....)
23. True doctrine of adoption (In the Bible....)
24. Separate creations (spirit, spiritual, mortal) (In the Bible....)
25. True doctrine of the gift of the Holy Spirit (In the Bible....)
26. True doctrine of the resurrection (In the Bible....)
27. True doctrine of baptism (In the Bible....)
28. True doctrine of the meaning of creation (In the Bible....)
29. True doctrine of the meaning of being born again (In the Bible....)
30. True doctrine of Jesus as our father. (In the Bible....)
31. True nature of prophets (In the Bible....)
32. True doctrine of justification (In the Bible....)
33. True doctrine of sanctification (In the Bible....)
34. Doctrine of the degrees of glory in the resurrection (In the Bible....)
35. Necessity of the Fall (In the Bible....)
36. Opposition in all things (In the Bible....)
37. Purpose of creation and the existence of man (In the Bible....)
38. The correct answer to the problem of evil (In the Bible....)
39. True concept of Satan and evil spirits. (In the Bible....)
40. The covenant of baptism (In the Bible....)
41. The covenant of the sacrament (In the Bible....)
42. The eternal effects of the atonement (In the Bible....)
43. The eternal nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ (In the Bible....)​

All the above most certainly IS in the Bible. Alma I'm sure knows this.....
Thus, I think what happened here is that Alma maybe was confusing different "Christian interpretations" from the Bible, with what's actually in the Bible, as well as what the Restoration has made "absolutely clear" by Modern direct statements and clear doctrine revelations, compared with some of the subjects which are not "as" direct in what the doctrine is according to the Bible (i.e. having to compare and combine many scriptures to know the 'true' doctrine).

I was able to recognize the LDS Church as being the True Church BECAUSE I saw these things in the Bible, thus, it's not quite accurate to say they aren't in the Bible. Yes, some aren't as clear as they could be, thus LDS theology has made them clear, and yes, most other Christians do not believe them or incorrectly interpret them. But, these are different than them not actually being in the Bible.

Bottom line, these things ARE in the Bible.....
One can also go to the "Study Helps" at scriptures.lds.org and see for themselves (if I'm not believed) all the quotes from the Bible on these subjects. While the study helps are not "exhaustive", most have plenty of support in the Bible alone.

 

[skylark1]

I'm going to have to disagree with Alma..... who posted this list.
While I will agree with him that the "full" understanding of all aspects of SOME of the subjects are not necessarily in the Bible, most of the these the basic ideology behind the idea, i.e. the doctrine certainly is.

I know this for sure because I knew these things in the Bible well before knowing Mormonism existed.

<snip>

All the above most certainly IS in the Bible. Alma I'm sure knows this.....
Thus, I think what happened here is that Alma maybe was confusing different "Christian interpretations" from the Bible, with what's actually in the Bible, as well as what the Restoration has made "absolutely clear" by Modern direct statements and clear doctrine revelations, compared with some of the subjects which are not "as" direct in what the doctrine is according to the Bible (i.e. having to compare and combine many scriptures to know the 'true' doctrine).

I was able to recognize the LDS Church as being the True Church BECAUSE I saw these things in the Bible, thus, it's not quite accurate to say they aren't in the Bible. Yes, some aren't as clear as they could be, thus LDS theology has made them clear, and yes, most other Christians do not believe them or incorrectly interpret them. But, these are different than them not actually being in the Bible.

Bottom line, these things ARE in the Bible.....
One can also go to the "Study Helps" at scriptures.lds.org and see for themselves (if I'm not believed) all the quotes from the Bible on these subjects. While the study helps are not "exhaustive", most have plenty of support in the Bible alone.

To be fair, he did write: "Here’s a list of a few items that strike me as being plain and precious as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that either don’t appear in the Bible or don’t appear in a plain enough manner so that they are easily or correctly understood."

To be even more fair, perhaps I shouldn't have posted the list since he has not posted here for a long time. I didn't think that it would be controversial, and I thought that it directly addressed the OP. I remembered the post, but it took some time to dig it up.

Ldsfaqs, what plain and precious truths do you think are missing from the Bible?

 

[ldsfaqs]

I know, I addressed that point in my post.....

Me, I posted a list of articles on the subject matter already. I concur with them.
Also, as in all LDS, we don't have "lists" in our heads as to what is missing from the Bible. Some might, but I don't, and most I've known don't. We just read the Bible as it is, along with our other scriptures.

But there is one obvious one, that is baptism for the dead. While the practice is indicated in the Bible, it's not at all clear as to the details, the full purpose, etc.

Another might be the Kingdoms of Heaven. While the Bible indicates many mansions, three degrees of glory, it's not as specific as latter-day revelation has made the subject.

Preaching the Gospel to the dead.... While the doctrine is in the Bible, basically no other Christian religion believes in it. Thus, the Restoration further expanded the truth on that subject.

There are other specific things that are missing, can't remember at the moment, recommend folks read those articles. Me, I don't have time right now. But, I've read them several times before.

 

[eachallberg]

If one claims to be a Christian in a faith that says the Bible is in error, or is missing something, please share what those things are.

We can't tell what is right, but we can tell what is wrong.
And that is how we can tell what maybe right.

Only God knows whats missing, and what was altered in the Bible (Jeremiah 8:8).

Error in the Bible is...

-The lack of the specifics of characters, and to go as far as confusing them.
I.E. the god or the lord in the O.T. is not are God the Father, and are Lord the Savior Jesus Christ.

We should not judge others, because Christ does not judge. Maybe, the Ancient of Days, the Demiurge will judge.

Dont swear, promise, vow, or make oaths they come from the evil one.
Yet, they are through out scripture.

Paul wrote about avoiding genealogies, but they are in the Bible.

Is it ok to have people as possessions (slaves)? Are women equal to men? The Bible says yes and no.

Where do we pray? Alone behind closed doors, or in public?

What about Improvidence? Improvidence is enjoined in Luke 12:3 &#8220;Sell that ye have and give alms.&#8221; also in Luke 6:30 & 35 &#8220;Give to every man that asketh of thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again ... And lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward shall be great.&#8221; Also note Matthew 6:28, 31 & 34.

Improvidence is condemned in I Timothy 5:8 &#8220;But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

There maybe more.

Psalms + Luke 4 through Jude = the Rock that is easy and Light.
Seeing there be many things that increase vanity, what is man the better?

Peace.

 

[Sieben]

1 John 5:8-9
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

Three witnesses. Previous verses (v6) state two of them the Lord did/came by. Meaning the water and blood. Then it states the Holy Spirit testifying of that truth. So water baptism of the Lord, Crucifixion of the Lord, and the Holy Spirit sealing the believer.

 

[Lionroot]

So would it be fair to say that some believe that there are New Testament temple rites missing from the Bible? Among them:
1) Baptism of the dead
2) Sealing (eternal marriage)
Perhaps others. (please embellish)

If so, what external proof do you have that such was a) practiced and b) was removed or lost?

.

(signature follows).....
Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To be fair, he did write: "Here’s a list of a few items that strike me as being plain and precious as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that either don’t appear in the Bible or don’t appear in a plain enough manner so that they are easily or correctly understood."

To be even more fair, perhaps I shouldn't have posted the list since he has not posted here for a long time. I didn't think that it would be controversial, and I thought that it directly addressed the OP. I remembered the post, but it took some time to dig it up.

Ldsfaqs, what plain and precious truths do you think are missing from the Bible?

Thank you for the clarification. It is a pity that Alma has not been posting for a long time. I can agree that most, if not all, of the items on his list are defined and understood differently by the LDS than orthodox Christianity even though they may share similar terminology. The LDS understanding typically cannot be achieved just by reading the Bible.

 

[Zechariah]

Baby-making and making babies and having children all have the same meaning. To reproduce, to conceive, to become pregnant, are other phrases that can be used. I didn't know that baby-making would be an offensive choice of words. Sex is not a forbidden topic in the LDS church; it is discussed in terms of sexual purity and spoken of as physical intimacy. Having children is spoken of by LDS members also; and all children begin life as infants or, IOW, babies. I apologize if the term baby-making is offensive.

"Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love within marriage" ("Chastity," True to the Faith, 2004, 29–33).
Sexual Purity - The Law of Chastity: Sexual Purity

"The power to create mortal life is the most exalted power God has given his children."
Dallin H. Oaks, “‘The Great Plan of Happiness’,” Ensign, Nov 1993, p. 72

"I didn't know..." ??? Oh please!!!

Anyone who professes to have been LDS for as long as you and claims to know the doctrines knows very well that "eternal baby making" is inflammatory phrasing. If you know the doctrines so well and have no desire to inflame and sensationalize, it seems you would have no desire, or need, to resort to such.

I see little here has changed though...

 

[Rescued One]

"I didn't know..." ??? Oh please!!!

Anyone who professes to have been LDS for as long as you and claims to know the doctrines knows very well that "eternal baby making" is inflammatory phrasing. If you know the doctrines so well and have no desire to inflame and sensationalize, it seems you would have no desire, or need, to resort to such.

I love you, Zechariah, and will remember you in my prayers.

 

[ldsfaqs]

Thank you for the clarification. It is a pity that Alma has not been posting for a long time. I can agree that most, if not all, of the items on his list are defined and understood differently by the LDS than orthodox Christianity even though they may share similar terminology. The LDS understanding typically cannot be achieved just by reading the Bible.

You should be careful with your wording.

The only "reason" you think LDS understanding cannot be had by the Bible, is because you've been trained to think and look at the Bible in a certain way by various man-made religions.

Those, who simply read the Bible, without any training or biased devotion to a particular ideology and interpretation, WILL most certainly see more of the LDS understanding of things. I know, because I did it myself.

Anyway one just reads the Bible, and then tries to compare it with whatever religion out there, will find all the various religions seriously lacking. Then, if they are lucky and they come upon mormonism, they will see a religion that fully fits the Bible. Of course, there still must be objectivity, and not yet having been blinded by "dishonest critics" of mormonism to think about it and the subjects a certain way.

 

[ldsfaqs]

I love you, Zechariah, and will remember you in my prayers.

Just about threw up my milk over my puter....

The world can do without your kind of "love".

 

[Lionroot]

Feel, felt, found
A legitimate sales technique. You know who you are...

... ldsfaq, very mean spirited...milk comment... Someone once said, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you....and that makes you almost vomit?!?

Thats the kind of love the world needs more of...(Coca Cola anyone)

Overcome evil, with good...

(signature follows).....
Jud 1:3
Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.