What people believe does not change the truth...

[Byfaithalone1]

Going to church on Sunday is not the issue, you can go to church seven days a week if you really want to.

OK.

The issue is disobeying the fourth commandment, which says to remember to keep the seventh day holy.

What behaviors would a person display if that person was disobeying the fourth commandment? What exactly does it mean to "keep the seventh day holy?" How does one do it?

But instead people keep Sunday holy

What behaviors would a person display if he were to keep Sunday holy? What does it mean to "keep Sunday?" I don't claim to keep Sunday holy and I don't have a clue how to do it even if I wanted to.

and call Sunday the Sabbath.

Who has called Sunday the sabbath? Sunday was never the sabbath. For the Israelites, the sabbath always occurred on the seventh day. I see no evidence that this changed.

They even call Sunday the Lord's day in direct response and confirmation to a Sabbath change.

I have heard this, but I don't agree that people view "the Lord's Day" as being the same thing as "the sabbath." Nor do I agree that those who attend corporate worship on Sunday are attempting to "keep it holy." This seems to be an idea that you've concocted on your own.

BFA

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1; What behaviors would a person display if that person was disobeying the fourth commandment? What exactly does it mean to "keep the seventh day holy?" How does one do it?

What behaviors would a person display if he were to keep Sunday holy? What does it mean to "keep Sunday?" I don't claim to keep Sunday holy and I don't have a clue how to do it even if I wanted to.

http://looking4jesus.com/Jesussabbath.html

Who has called Sunday the sabbath? Sunday was never the sabbath. For the Israelites, the sabbath always occurred on the seventh day. I see no evidence that this changed.

Sep.9 2007 VIENNA (Reuters) - Pope Benedict on Sunday called on Catholics to keep the Sabbath a day set aside for reflection on their faith and the fate of the planet and not surrender it to "the mad rush of the modern world".

I have heard this, but I don't agree that people view "the Lord's Day" as being the same thing as "the sabbath." Nor do I agree that those who attend corporate worship on Sunday are attempting to "keep it holy." This seems to be an idea that you've concocted on your own. BFA

http://looking4jesus.com/End-Time-Persecution.html

 

[Byfaithalone1]

http://looking4jesus.com/Jesussabbath.html

[URL]http://looking4jesus.com/End-Time-Persecution.html[/URL]

I'm looking for some discussion, K4C. I'm not here to follow links to other websites. I tried to wade through the pages you linked, but they are lengthy and seem to cover all sorts of things that are unrelated to our discussion and the specific questions I asked. In all honesty, I don't have the time to work that hard in the interest of pursuing 2-way dialogue. How do you respond to my questions? If you foresee danger for those who "keep Sunday," then you should be able to articulate in your own words what it means to "keep Sunday."

Sep.9 2007 VIENNA (Reuters) - Pope Benedict on Sunday called on Catholics to keep the Sabbath a day set aside for reflection on their faith and the fate of the planet and not surrender it to "the mad rush of the modern world".

How does this relate to me or to any person posting in this forum? Pope Benedict can declare Friday to be National Fri-Chick Day, but that doesn't really relate to the beliefs of any person posting in this forum. If you have concerns about Pope Benedict, you may want to visit the RCC forum. I don't believe that Sunday is the sabbath. No person posting in this progressive SDA forum believes that Sunday is the sabbath. This seems to be yet another red herring.

BFA

 

[Aibrean]

So on Sunday he told them to set aside Saturday for reflection....point being?

 

[k4c]

I'm looking for some discussion, K4C. I'm not here to follow links to other websites. I tried to wade through the pages you linked, but they are lengthy and seem to cover all sorts of things that are unrelated to our discussion and the specific questions I asked. In all honesty, I don't have the time to work that hard in the interest of pursuing 2-way dialogue. How do you respond to my questions? If you foresee danger for those who "keep Sunday," then you should be able to articulate in your own words what it means to "keep Sunday."

How does this relate to me or to any person posting in this forum? Pope Benedict can declare Friday to be National Fri-Chick Day, but that doesn't really relate to the beliefs of any person posting in this forum. If you have concerns about Pope Benedict, you may want to visit the RCC forum. I don't believe that Sunday is the sabbath. No person posting in this progressive SDA forum believes that Sunday is the sabbath. This seems to be yet another red herring.

BFA

You say I make up things yet you won't take the time to see if what I'm saying is true. Do I have go to my website and cut and paste everything so you can read it on this forum? You just plain out right refuse to receive anything that doesn't fit your little denominational box. If I said the sky was blue you would fight, kick and accuse. If I said, look up and see that the sky is blue, you would say I don't have time for that. If I said water is wet you would fight, kick and accuse. If I said come to the beach and let me show you you would say you can't be bothered and then accuse me of falsehood. What else can I say accept for, "Whatever".

 

[VictorC]

You say I make up things yet you won't take the time to see if what I'm saying is true. Do I have go to my website and cut and paste everything so you can read it on this forum? You just plain out right refuse to receive anything that doesn't fit your little denominational box. If I said the sky was blue you would fight, kick and accuse. If I said, look up and see that the sky is blue, you would say I don't have time for that. If I said water is wet you would fight, kick and accuse. If I said come to the beach and let me show you you would say you can't be bothered and then accuse me of falsehood. What else can I say accept for, "Whatever".

You haven't provided any support for most of the material you've posted lately, and of course it comes naturally that you're making things up. Regarding pope Benedict, you fail to recognize that he has no authority to replace the sabbath anymore than he can resurrect the old covenant that contained it. No one other than you has resorted to what amounts to a red herring argument others recognize for what it is.

 

[Aibrean]

How do you define what should/shouldn't be done on the Sabbath? You never answered that one either.

BTW - the news article doesn't quote him saying the Sabbath. Why? He never said anything. The media said Sabbath.

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoChannel=2602&videoId=65974

Find me a video where he says Sabbath.

 

[k4c]

How do you define what should/shouldn't be done on the Sabbath? You never answered that one either.

BTW - the news article doesn't quote him saying the Sabbath. Why? He never said anything. The media said Sabbath.

Pope urges respect for Sundays | Video | Reuters.com

Find me a video where he says Sabbath.

You are not seeing what you don't want to see.

If you do your research with open eyes and with a heart that wants truth you will see how the Catholic church has called Sunday the Sabbath many, many times. Here are just a few.

Catholic Encyclopaedia Vol. 4, p. 153 “The church, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath of the seventh day of the week to the first made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day.”

“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.” Catholic Virginian, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”

“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” Rome’s Challenge www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.

“Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?”
“Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.”

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?”
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York).

“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?”
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.”
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?”
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.” James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).

 

[Aibrean]

I see what is there...

“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?”
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.”

The Catholics didn't change the Sabbath. The requirements of the Sabbath had changed and so they just changed the day of worship. That's all. The Sabbath continues to be Saturday.

You like leaving answers out. Where are the definitions on how to keep the Sabbath in the NT? Where does the Sabbath die into the New Covenant? I've asked these questions multiple times.

 

[BlackSabb]

You are not seeing what you don't want to see.

If you do your research with open eyes and with a heart that wants truth you will see how the Catholic church has called Sunday the Sabbath many, many times. Here are just a few.

Catholic Encyclopaedia Vol. 4, p. 153 “The church, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath of the seventh day of the week to the first made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day.”

“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.” Catholic Virginian, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”

“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” Rome’s Challenge www.immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.

“Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?”
“Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.”

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?”
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York).

“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?”
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.”
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?”
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.

“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.” James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).

So what? Big deal! As another poster said, it doesn't matter what the Catholic church calls Sunday-be it Sabbath or merely a day of fellowship. The fact is that the average Sunday going Christian, be it Catholic or otherwise, does not view Sunday as observing the Sabbath.

I was raised Catholic. Never once did I hear the expression "Sabbath" in relation to Sunday attendance. And it is not "Sabbath" to any other Sunday going Christian.

Put it this way. It would be like you carrying on about people owning and driving a VW because it was the brain child of Adolf Hitler. And yes, you can post links to the Nazi origins of the VW and you can post pictures of motor shows where SS men are standing by the first Beetles. And you can post links showing how the first Beetles has swastikas. But nobody these days is interested in the Nazi origins of the VW even though they own and drive one. Millions of people can drive a VW without having any Nazi sympathies despite the Beetle being a propaganda tool of Hitler. Hundreds of millions of Catholics can go to church on Sunday without any association with the Sabbath regardless of what the official Catholic position is. Hardly any Catholic in fact would have the faintest clue of the knowledge of that link you provided. And I challenge you. Why don't you settle this issue once for and all for all of us to see? Why don't you post a thread on the Catholic section of CF and ask them if Sunday observance is merely a day of worship or observing Sabbath. I'm guessing you don't want to do that because you know the answer.

Your link is evidence of nothing. And you show incredible lack of knowledge to claim that Sunday going Christians observe "Sabbath". Almost no Sunday church Christian views Sunday as observing the Sabbath. Regardless of what link you put up. It is ignorance on your part and just a distortion that you have made up to further your cause.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're just making up your view of the world you live in.

 

[k4c]

So what? Big deal! As another poster said, it doesn't matter what the Catholic church calls Sunday-be it Sabbath or merely a day of fellowship. The fact is that the average Sunday going Christian, be it Catholic or otherwise, does not view Sunday as observing the Sabbath.

I was raised Catholic. Never once did I hear the expression "Sabbath" in relation to Sunday attendance. And it is not "Sabbath" to any other Sunday going Christian.

Put it this way. It would be like you carrying on about people owning and driving a VW because it was the brain child of Adolf Hitler. And yes, you can post links to the Nazi origins of the VW and you can post pictures of motor shows where SS men are standing by the first Beetles. And you can post links showing how the first Beetles has swastikas. But nobody these days is interested in the Nazi origins of the VW even though they own and drive one. Millions of people can drive a VW without having any Nazi sympathies despite the Beetle being a propaganda tool of Hitler. Hundreds of millions of Catholics can go to church on Sunday without any association with the Sabbath regardless of what the official Catholic position is. Hardly any Catholic in fact would have the faintest clue of the knowledge of that link you provided. And I challenge you. Why don't you settle this issue once for and all for all of us to see? Why don't you post a thread on the Catholic section of CF and ask them if Sunday observance is merely a day of worship or observing Sabbath. I'm guessing you don't want to do that because you know the answer.

Your link is evidence of nothing. And you show incredible lack of knowledge to claim that Sunday going Christians observe "Sabbath". Almost no Sunday church Christian views Sunday as observing the Sabbath. Regardless of what link you put up. It is ignorance on your part and just a distortion that you have made up to further your cause.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're just making up your view of the world you live in.

Let's say that God created the Chevy and wants all His people driving a Chevy. Now the devil comes along and says everyone is to drive a VW and forget about the Chevy. VW drivers even say the VW is the Lord's car. God's people fight and kick at the change but the devil has his VW drivers kill and imprison all who drive a Chevy. After years of persecuting and killing Chevy drivers we now have everyone driving a VW. But then God impresses some of His people to test drive the Chevy when they realize the Chevy is the Lord's car and because they are God's people who love the truth they make the change and start driving a Chevy, even though the highways are jammed with VWs. Now you just so happen to be VW drive who believes you are driving the Lord's car. You kick and scratch and call the Chevy driver a liar and say he has no idea what he is talking about. You search far and near yet you find nothing that says the VW is the Lord's car but you continue to drive it and resist the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You need to read your owner's manuel...

 

[k4c]

I see what is there...

“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?”
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.”

The Catholics didn't change the Sabbath. The requirements of the Sabbath had changed and so they just changed the day of worship. That's all. The Sabbath continues to be Saturday.

You like leaving answers out. Where are the definitions on how to keep the Sabbath in the NT? Where does the Sabbath die into the New Covenant? I've asked these questions multiple times.

Isn't scary how they acknowledge the truth yet they don't obey the truth.

Out of pomous words against God I can acknowledge Satuday as the Sabbath yet keep Sunday as the day of rest instead of Saturday.

“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work?"

 

[Laodicean]

So what? Big deal! As another poster said, it doesn't matter what the Catholic church calls Sunday-be it Sabbath or merely a day of fellowship. The fact is that the average Sunday going Christian, be it Catholic or otherwise, does not view Sunday as observing the Sabbath.

right. That is because most Sunday-going Christians have lost the original concept of Sundaykeeping -- that it was a day to be kept holy. You know, as the catechism says, the holiness of the seventh day was transferred to the first day. And even though the masses have forgotten what it is all about, there remain periodic calls by the more informed --calls for Sunday to be kept better than just the closing of many businesses.

I was raised Catholic. Never once did I hear the expression "Sabbath" in relation to Sunday attendance. And it is not "Sabbath" to any other Sunday going Christian.

That is because Sabbath is recognized as Saturday, and Sunday is recognized as an institution of the church on the basis of its assumed ecclesiastical authority.

Put it this way. It would be like you carrying on about people owning and driving a VW because it was the brain child of Adolf Hitler. And yes, you can post links to the Nazi origins of the VW and you can post pictures of motor shows where SS men are standing by the first Beetles. And you can post links showing how the first Beetles has swastikas. But nobody these days is interested in the Nazi origins of the VW even though they own and drive one. Millions of people can drive a VW without having any Nazi sympathies despite the Beetle being a propaganda tool of Hitler. Hundreds of millions of Catholics can go to church on Sunday without any association with the Sabbath regardless of what the official Catholic position is. Hardly any Catholic in fact would have the faintest clue of the knowledge of that link you provided. And I challenge you. Why don't you settle this issue once for and all for all of us to see? Why don't you post a thread on the Catholic section of CF and ask them if Sunday observance is merely a day of worship or observing Sabbath. I'm guessing you don't want to do that because you know the answer.

A fairly persuasive argument, BlackSabb, but not quite. From the peanut gallery here, I think k4c's analogy of the Chevy and the VW is far more persuasive.

Your link is evidence of nothing. And you show incredible lack of knowledge to claim that Sunday going Christians observe "Sabbath". Almost no Sunday church Christian views Sunday as observing the Sabbath. Regardless of what link you put up. It is ignorance on your part and just a distortion that you have made up to further your cause.

You are mostly correct that no Sunday church Christian views Sunday as observing the Sabbath. But this is to the distress of those who think that Sunday is not being kept holy as it was originally meant to be kept, when the holiness of the seventh day was transferred to the first day, via the ecclesiastical authority of the RC Church.

So, no, it's not ignorance on k4c's part, BlackSabb. He recognizes the fact that most sunday-going Christians have no concept of why they go to church on Sunday, and keeping it "holy" is the furthest thing from their minds. That doesn't change the original intent of those who established that institution, and the efforts continuously being made by some in authority to bring back a Sabbath rest to Sunday.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're just making up your view of the world you live in

Nope, BlackSabb, my friend (or are we still friends now that I disagree with you?) k4c is making nothing up and he knows exactly what he is talking about. I am just amazed at his persistence in the face of the kind of rejection he is getting. I don't think I'd have the stamina.

 

[Aibrean]

Where are the definitions on how to keep the Sabbath in the NT? Where does the Sabbath tie into the New Covenant? I've asked these questions multiple times.

 

[k4c]

Where are the definitions on how to keep the Sabbath in the NT? Where does the Sabbath tie into the New Covenant? I've asked these questions multiple times.

I've answered you mulitple times.

The fourth commandment tells us to remember to keep the seventh day holy. To keep something holy is to set it apart from everything else and since we're talking about days we are to keep the seventh day apart from the other days by ceasing normal everyday work.

Many religious people in Jesus' day, as well as today, added so much to the Sabbath that it becomes a burden. When Jesus came He corrected all the misconceptions people had about how to keep the Sabbath holy and what could be done on the Sabbath.

In order to understand the principles Jesus gave regarding keeping the Sabbath holy you really have to take the time and study every thing Jesus said in response to their accusations.

If you go to my site you will be able to read all the instances when Jesus was accused of Sabbath breaking and His response in correcting these accusations. http://looking4jesus.com/Jesussabbath.html

You could also get your own Bible and study it for yourself if you don't believe me.

 

[Aibrean]

The fourth commandment is Old Covenant and Old Covenant is obsolete.

You haven't yet addressed anything regarding the New Covenant.

Jesus hadn't died yet by the way - when he was addressing people about OC law.

 

[VictorC]

The fourth commandment is Old Covenant and Old Covenant is obsolete.

You haven't yet addressed anything regarding the New Covenant.

Jesus hadn't died yet by the way - when he was addressing people about OC law.

I am so relieved to see someone who acknowledges the inauguration of the new covenant found in the death of the Testator who completed the first covenant and redeemed our transgressions under it (Hebrews 9:15). Even on GT this is rare to see.

And you are right - k4c continually mouths something about the fourth commandment, and there is no such thing as a "fourth commandment" found anywhere in the commandments of God in the new covenant.

 

[Aibrean]

Or Hebrews 8:6,13

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Do I have go to my website and cut and paste everything so you can read it on this forum?

Yes please. This is a discussion forum, not a forum to promote your website.

BFA

 

[pdudgeon]

MOD HAT ON

just a brief note to please keep the conversation civil.

focus on the subject, not on the poster, please.

thank you. we now return you to the conversation at hand

MOD HAT OFF.