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What people believe does not change the truth...

Byfaithalone1

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Since K4C seems to foresee dire consequences for those who attend corporate worship services on Sunday, I would hope that K4C will be willing to be a bit more specific about the nature of those consequences.

If a person regularly attends church on Sunday, is that person in danger of one day:
1. Never being safe to save?
2. Losing the salvation He has already received as a free gift?
3. Going to hell and not heaven?
K4C titled another thread "A Warning in the Last Days." What are being warned about? What could potentially happen to persons who regularly attend church services on Sunday?

BFA
 
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Kira Light

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It is truly bold to claim you can interpret Revelation prophecy with enough accuracy to base your life around, and even condemn others for not agreeing with you. Does anyone in their right mind really think this book was meant for this purpose?
 
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StormyOne

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It is truly bold to claim you can interpret Revelation prophecy with enough accuracy to base your life around, and even condemn others for not agreeing with you. Does anyone in their right mind really think this book was meant for this purpose?
your point is valid... well said....
 
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Sophia7

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It is truly bold to claim you can interpret Revelation prophecy with enough accuracy to base your life around, and even condemn others for not agreeing with you. Does anyone in their right mind really think this book was meant for this purpose?

The book of Revelation is difficult for me to understand, and I haven't yet found one interpretive approach that answers all of my questions about it. I certainly don't think that people should condemn others for not agreeing with their interpretations. I think it's also important to remember that the book of Revelation was a letter written to the seven churches in Asia Minor. Since then, too many Christians have applied it to themselves without considering the original audience and the historical context.
 
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k4c

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Since K4C seems to foresee dire consequences for those who attend corporate worship services on Sunday, I would hope that K4C will be willing to be a bit more specific about the nature of those consequences.

If a person regularly attends church on Sunday, is that person in danger of one day:
1. Never being safe to save?
2. Losing the salvation He has already received as a free gift?
3. Going to hell and not heaven?
K4C titled another thread "A Warning in the Last Days." What are being warned about? What could potentially happen to persons who regularly attend church services on Sunday?

BFA

Going to church on Sunday is not the issue, you can go to church seven days a week if you really want to. The issue is disobeying the fourth commandment, which says to remember to keep the seventh day holy. But instead people keep Sunday holy and call Sunday the Sabbath. They even call Sunday the Lord's day in direct response and confirmation to a Sabbath change.
 
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VictorC

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Going to church on Sunday is not the issue, you can go to church seven days a week if you really want to. The issue is disobeying the fourth commandment, which says to remember to keep the seventh day holy. But instead people keep Sunday holy and call Sunday the Sabbath. They even call Sunday the Lord's day in direct response and confirmation to a Sabbath change.
Of course this is a red herring that multiple members here have confirmed as inaccurate, and using a red herring to avoid the questions posed to you isn't a responsible model of discussion on a discussion forum, IMO.
 
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Laodicean

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[/size]

I have no problem with people claiming that the Sabbath still needs to be kept. I keep the Sabbath, just different to you. My Sabbath is the rest in Christ's finished work, as outlined in the NT. So yes, I keep the commandments including the Sabbath.


well, well, well....this is the best answer I've heard so far on this forum regarding the commandments. BlackSabb, you have managed to present, in a few words, a thoughtful and reasoned argument that describes the Christian as a law-abiding citizen, not a lawbreaker. You have found a way to uphold the values of the ten commandments, including the Sabbath concept, without insisting on the seventh day. I am impressed.

I agree with you when you say, "My Sabbath is the rest in Christ's finished work, as outlined in the NT." I have found that rest, too. The stress has gone out of my life and I relax in the knowledge that I can rest from my own works, trusting that God is accomplishing His work in and for me. Such good news!

Of course, our mileage may vary when it comes to how often we remember this good news. For me, it is something that I try to remember on a weekly basis, as requested in the Fourth of the Ten. It helps me to constantly remember, not only that God created, but that He is willing to recreate me via the new birth. I imagine that you have found other ways to remember the good news of the rest that awaits us in Christ's finished work.

Hopefully, k4c does not upset you too much with some of the ways in which he expresses his ideas. He is like the man who daily walks the streets of a large city, bearing a sign saying, "Destruction is coming, repent." Such a person is usually mocked and eventually ignored as weird or a nuisance, even an embarrassment. But I think we need to be careful how we react, for it is possible that a channel used by God may not necessarily be the suave, sophisticated person with the smooth and soothing speech. And a hearer's resentment just might be a clue to him/her that some truth is hard to hear or bear.

Just my two cents.....
 
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BlackSabb

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k4c said:
Force has been used to enforce the first day. This is not of God and anyone who follows, agrees or denies this is following after the beast.


k4c said:
First of all I didn't say they are of Satan


Notice what our friend k4c is doing. This boys and girls is what you call "back pedalling". And he shows how ridiculous his arguments are. How on earth can one be "following after the beast" but not be "of Satan?" Truly a propestrous notion. His arguments are getting more convoluted by the minute.

Anyone with a bit of theological common sense can discern that following after the beast automatically puts one as being of Satan. But the fact is that k4c is embaressed because he realises he is condemning virtually of all Christendom with his convoluted man made doctrines. So he back pedals so that he can have his cake and eat it too.


Laodicean said:
well, well, well....this is the best answer I've heard so far on this forum regarding the commandments. BlackSabb, you have managed to present, in a few words, a thoughtful and reasoned argument that describes the Christian as a law-abiding citizen, not a lawbreaker. You have found a way to uphold the values of the ten commandments, including the Sabbath concept, without insisting on the seventh day. I am impressed.


Feel free to heap praise on me just as my latest best friend Laodicean has...:p But thank you for your response. You know Laodicean, I imagine that if I were you, I'd be even more irked with k4c than any non Adventist. Because it is people like him calling themselves Adventists that are giving Adventism a bad reputation, using such terms as cult, sect, fringe, non orthodox etc. Would I be correct?
 
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k4c

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Notice what our friend k4c is doing. This boys and girls is what you call "back pedalling". And he shows how ridiculous his arguments are. How on earth can one be "following after the beast" but not be "of Satan?" Truly a propestrous notion. His arguments are getting more convoluted by the minute.

Anyone with a bit of theological common sense can discern that following after the beast automatically puts one as being of Satan. But the fact is that k4c is embaressed because he realises he is condemning virtually of all Christendom with his convoluted man made doctrines. So he back pedals so that he can have his cake and eat it too.

Feel free to heap praise on me just as my latest best friend Laodicean has...:p But thank you for your response. You know Laodicean, I imagine that if I were you, I'd be even more irked with k4c than any non Adventist. Because it is people like him calling themselves Adventists that are giving Adventism a bad reputation, using such terms as cult, sect, fringe, non orthodox etc. Would I be correct?

If you would take the time to research what I'm saying instead of resisting it you might learn something.

As far as those people belonging to Satan, who God is calling to come out of Babylon. Did you even hear what God said or are you just finghting what I say just for the sake of fighting? God called those people in Babylon His people. If you have a problem with that you really need to talk to God about it and stop accusing me of wrong doing.

The important thing for you to understand is that even thought God is calling these people His people they will still take part of Babylon's sin and will still drink of the wrath of God. So again, before go off on a tandom and say all kinds of bad things against me take some time a read your Bible that way you can say them against God and leave me out of it.

Now, what you need to do is see your sin, receieve Jesus' forgiveness and go and sin no more lest a worst thing happen to you. Oh yeah, those were the words of Jesus too.

Did you know that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day and called it holy at creation even before sin was in the world?

Did you that when God sanctifies something He is setting it appart for His special purpose?

Did you know that wrote, with His own finger, a Law to protect the holiness of the seventh day, which tells us to remember to keep the seventh day holy?

Did you know that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? That means the Sabbath is the Lord's day.

Did you know that Saturday is the seventh day, not Sunday?

Webster's Dictionary
Sat·ur·day (sat′ər dā′)
The seventh day of the week.
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The day following Friday and preceding Sunday.[/FONT]​

Did you know that when we keep the seventh day holy it testifies of our allegiance to God?

Did you know that when we keep the Sabbath holy it bears witness to a creation and a Creator and refutes the theory of evolution?

Did you know that when we remember to keep the seventh day holy we testify to the whole world that we worship the God of creation?

Think about these things.
 
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BlackSabb

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And tell me something, do you keep the Sabbath properly like the Jews? I bet you don't. I've never seen an Adventist keep the Sabbath like the Jews do. And let's face it, who do I expect to know more about how to keep the Sabbath? People who have been doing it for thousands of years or your exclusive sect that's popped up in the last 200 years?

The proper way of keeping the Sabbath is not just not going to work and going to church. You're not supposed to operate anything, turn on light switches, turn on anything electrical etc. You're not supposed to drive, eat out etc because by doing any of these things, someone else is required to work on Saturday to work to provide you that service. For eg, boiling a kettle on Saturday means that someone has to work on Saturday at a power station to keep power supplied for your appliance.

So is this how you keep the Sabbath? If not, you have no place telling others to observe a Sabbath when you don't properly observe one yourself-just some modernised, modified form.
 
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k4c

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And tell me something, do you keep the Sabbath properly like the Jews? I bet you don't. I've never seen an Adventist keep the Sabbath like the Jews do. And let's face it, who do I expect to know more about how to keep the Sabbath? People who have been doing it for thousands of years or your exclusive sect that's popped up in the last 200 years?

The proper way of keeping the Sabbath is not just not going to work and going to church. You're not supposed to operate anything, turn on light switches, turn on anything electrical etc. You're not supposed to drive, eat out etc because by doing any of these things, someone else is required to work on Saturday to work to provide you that service. For eg, boiling a kettle on Saturday means that someone has to work on Saturday at a power station to keep power supplied for your appliance.

So is this how you keep the Sabbath? If not, you have no place telling others to observe a Sabbath when you don't properly observe one yourself-just some modernised, modified form.

It's all so very simple.

God blessed the seventh day and called it holy. The word (blessed) means enjoying happiness; bringing pleasure, contentment, or good fortune. The word (holy) means set apart for God or sacred. All God is saying is that He blessed the seventh day and made it holy. It's a day that points to creation and its Creator. It's a day for God's people to stop what they are doing to gather, fellowship and share all that the Lord has done and is doing. Many of the burdens placed on the Sabbath was done so by religious man and not God. If you want to know how to keep the Sabbath holy, listen to the principles of Sabbath keeping that Jesus taught.

You can go here to learn what Jesus taught about Sabbath keeping. http://looking4jesus.com/Jesussabbath.html
 
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Aibrean

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Again...where does the Sabbath fit into the New Covenant?

I like Luther's explanation
Luther's Large Catechism said:
The Third Commandment.

78] Thou shalt sanctify the holy day. [Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.]

79] The word holy day (Feiertag) is rendered from the Hebrew word sabbath which properly signifies to rest, that is, to abstain from labor. Hence we are accustomed to say, Feierabend machen [that is, to cease working], or heiligen Abend geben [sanctify the Sabbath]. 80] Now, in the Old Testament, God separated the seventh day, and appointed it for rest, and commanded that it should be regarded as holy above all others. As regards this external observance, this commandment was given to the Jews alone, that they should abstain from toilsome work, and rest, so that both man and beast might recuperate, and not be weakened by unremitting labor. Although they afterwards restricted this too closely, and grossly abused it, so that they traduced and could not endure in Christ those works which they themselves were accustomed to do on that day, as we read in the Gospel; just as though the commandment were fulfilled by doing no external, [manual] work whatever, which, however, was not the meaning, but, as we shall hear, that they sanctify the holy day or day of rest.
82] This commandment, therefore, according to its gross sense, does not concern us Christians; for it is altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, times, and places, and now have been made free through Christ.
83] But to grasp a Christian meaning for the simple as to what God requires in this commandment, note that we keep holy days not for the sake of intelligent and learned Christians (for they have no need of it [holy days]), but first of all for bodily causes and necessities, which nature teaches and requires; for the common people, man-servants and maid-servants, who have been attending to their work and trade the whole week, that for a day they may retire in order to rest and be refreshed.
84] Secondly, and most especially, that on such day of rest (since we can get no other opportunity) freedom and time be taken to attend divine service, so that we come together to hear and treat of God's Word, and then to praise God, to sing and pray.
85] However, this, I say, is not so restricted to any time, as with the Jews, that it must be just on this or that day; for in itself no one day is better than another; but this should indeed be done daily; however, since the masses cannot give such attendance, there must be at least one day in the week set apart. But since from of old Sunday [the Lord's Day] has been appointed for this purpose, we also should continue the same, in order that everything be done in harmonious order, and no one create disorder by unnecessary innovation.
86] Therefore this is the simple meaning of the commandment: since holidays are observed anyhow, such observance should be devoted to hearing God's Word, so that the special function of this day should be the ministry of the Word for the young and the mass of poor people; yet that the resting be not so strictly interpreted as to forbid any other incidental work that cannot be avoided.
87] Accordingly, when asked, What is meant by the commandment: Thou shalt sanctify the holy day? answer: To sanctify the holy day is the same as to keep it holy. But what is meant by keeping it holy? Nothing else than to be occupied in holy words, works, and life. For the day needs no sanctification for itself; for in itself it has been created holy [from the beginning of the creation it was sanctified by its Creator]. But God desires it to be holy to you. Therefore it becomes holy or unholy on your account, according as you are occupied on the same with things that are holy or unholy.
88] How, then, does such sanctification take place? Not in this manner, that [with folded hands] we sit behind the stove and do no rough [external] work, or deck ourselves with a wreath and put on our best clothes, but (as has been said) that we occupy ourselves with God's Word, and exercise ourselves therein.
89] And, indeed we Christians ought always to keep such a holy day, and be occupied with nothing but holy things, i.e., daily be engaged upon God's Word, and carry it in our hearts and upon our lips. But (as has been said) since we do not at all times have leisure, we must devote several hours a week for the sake of the young, or at least a day for the sake of the entire multitude, to being concerned about this alone, and especially urge the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer, and thus direct our whole life and being according to God's Word. 90] At whatever time, then, this is being observed and practised, there a true holy day is being kept; otherwise it shall not be called a Christians' holy day. For, indeed, non-Christians can also cease from work and be idle, just as the entire swarm of our ecclesiastics, who stand daily in the churches, singing, and ringing bells but keeping no holy day holy, because they neither preach nor practise God's Word, but teach and live contrary to it.
91] For the Word of God is the sanctuary above all sanctuaries, yea, the only one which we Christians know and have. For though we had the bones of all the saints or all holy and consecrated garments upon a heap, still that would help us nothing; for all that is a dead thing which can sanctify nobody. But God's Word is the treasure which sanctifies everything, and by which even all the saints themselves were sanctified. At whatever hour, then, God's Word is taught, preached, heard, read or meditated upon, there the person, day, and work are sanctified thereby, not because of the external work, but because of the Word, which makes saints of us all. 92] Therefore I constantly say that all our life and work must be ordered according to God's Word, if it is to be God-pleasing or holy. Where this is done, this commandment is in force and being fulfilled.
93] On the contrary, any observance or work that is practised without God's Word is unholy before God, no matter how brilliantly it may shine, even though it be covered with relics, such as the fictitious spiritual orders, which know nothing of God's Word and seek holiness in their own works.
94] Note, therefore, that the force and power of this commandment lies not in the resting, but in the sanctifying, so that to this day belongs a special holy exercise. For other works and occupations are not properly called holy exercises, unless the man himself be first holy. But here a work is to be done by which man is himself made holy, which is done (as we have heard) alone through God's Word. For this, then, fixed places, times, persons, and the entire external order of worship have been created and appointed, so that it may be publicly in operation.
95] Since, therefore, so much depends upon God's Word that without it no holy day can be sanctified, we must know that God insists upon a strict observance of this commandment, and will punish all who despise His Word and are not willing to hear and learn it, especially at the time appointed for the purpose.
96] Therefore not only those sin against this commandment who grossly misuse and desecrate the holy day, as those who on account of their greed or frivolity neglect to hear God's Word or lie in taverns and are dead drunk like swine; but also that other crowd, who listen to God's Word as to any other trifle, and only from custom come to preaching, and go away again, and at the end of the year know as little of it as at the beginning. 97] For hitherto the opinion prevailed that you had properly hallowed Sunday when you had heard a mass or the Gospel read; but no one cared for God's Word, as also no one taught it. Now, while we have God's Word, we nevertheless do not correct the abuse; we suffer ourselves to be preached to and admonished, but we listen without seriousness and care.
98] Know, therefore, that you must be concerned not only about hearing, but also about learning and retaining it in memory, and do not think that it is optional with you or of no great importance, but that it is God's commandment, who will require of you how you have heard, learned, and honored His Word.
99] Likewise those fastidious spirits are to be reproved who, when they have heard a sermon or two, find it tedious and dull, thinking that they know all that well enough, and need no more instruction. For just that is the sin which has been hitherto reckoned among mortal sins, and is called ajkhdia, i.e., torpor or satiety, a malignant, dangerous plague with which the devil bewitches and deceives the hearts of many, that he may surprise us and secretly withdraw God's Word from us.
100] For let me tell you this, even though you know it perfectly and be already master in all things, still you are daily in the dominion of the devil, who ceases neither day nor night to steal unawares upon you, to kindle in your heart unbelief and wicked thoughts against the foregoing and all the commandments. Therefore you must always have God's Word in your heart, upon your lips, and in your ears. But where the heart is idle, and the Word does not sound, he breaks in and has done the damage before we are aware. 101] On the other hand, such is the efficacy of the Word, whenever it is seriously contemplated, heard, and used, that it is bound never to be without fruit, but always awakens new understanding, pleasure, and devoutness, and produces a pure heart and pure thoughts. For these words are not inoperative or dead, but creative, living words. 102] And even though no other interest or necessity impel us, yet this ought to urge every one thereunto, because thereby the devil is put to Right and driven away, and, besides, this commandment is fulfilled, and [this exercise in the Word] is more pleasing to God than any work of hypocrisy, however brilliant.
 
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BlackSabb

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It's all so very simple.



Yes it is. Paul in the NT says that some people esteem one day of the week above others. Whilst other people esteem all days of the week equally. Paul states clearly let each be fully convinced in his own mind and let not a person who esteems one day pull down the person who esteems all days. And vice versa.

So yes, it is simple. If you want to esteem Saturday, go ahead. I will esteem all days equally and as Paul says, let neither one of us look down upon each other.

That's my Biblical answer.
 
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k4c

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Yes it is. Paul in the NT says that some people esteem one day of the week above others. Whilst other people esteem all days of the week equally. Paul states clearly let each be fully convinced in his own mind and let not a person who esteems one day pull down the person who esteems all days. And vice versa.

So yes, it is simple. If you want to esteem Saturday, go ahead. I will esteem all days equally and as Paul says, let neither one of us look down upon each other.

That's my Biblical answer.

I call that chapter you quoted from the conscience chapter because it deals with man-made religious issues and not a commandment of God. It starts out by saying how some believe they shouldn't eat meat while others say it's okay to eat meat. Then it goes into days that man esteem such as Ash Wednesday, Easter and so on. These days were never commanded by God and nor did God say eating meat was wrong. These things are esteemed by man, not God. God did say to keep the seventh day holy.
 
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Laodicean

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Originally Posted by k4c
Force has been used to enforce the first day. This is not of God and anyone who follows, agrees or denies this is following after the beast.
Originally Posted by k4c
First of all I didn't say they are of Satan

Notice what our friend k4c is doing. This boys and girls is what you call "back pedalling".

or "clarifying"? I prefer that word.

But even if it were back pedaling, such an action is to be respected over a stubborn, unchanging insistence that one is right when wrong is pointed out.

And he shows how ridiculous his arguments are. How on earth can one be "following after the beast" but not be "of Satan?" Truly a propestrous notion. His arguments are getting more convoluted by the minute.

I disagree with you here, oh, my new best friend:p. Following a wrong path without realizing it is wrong, does not make a person "of Satan."

Anyone with a bit of theological common sense can discern that following after the beast automatically puts one as being of Satan.

I hope I have theological common sense. Yet I, for one, see no automatic connection between following a wrong path and being of Satan.

But the fact is that k4c is embaressed because he realises he is condemning virtually of all Christendom with his convoluted man made doctrines. So he back pedals so that he can have his cake and eat it too.

"back pedaling" is good if k4c realizes he is on the wrong path. So don't knock back pedaling. However, I don't think k4c is back pedaling. He is trying to clarify his position, in my opinion.


Originally Posted by Laodicean
well, well, well....this is the best answer I've heard so far on this forum regarding the commandments. BlackSabb, you have managed to present, in a few words, a thoughtful and reasoned argument that describes the Christian as a law-abiding citizen, not a lawbreaker. You have found a way to uphold the values of the ten commandments, including the Sabbath concept, without insisting on the seventh day. I am impressed.

Feel free to heap praise on me just as my latest best friend Laodicean has...
tongue.gif
But thank you for your response. You know Laodicean, I imagine that if I were you, I'd be even more irked with k4c than any non Adventist. Because it is people like him calling themselves Adventists that are giving Adventism a bad reputation, using such terms as cult, sect, fringe, non orthodox etc. Would I be correct?

I do wince when k4c continues to beat what I consider to be a dead horse to those who refuse to listen to his point of view. If it were me, I would have long since dropped the subject because when there is resistance, I see no value in pursuing the point. But I am not going to disassociate myself from k4c just because I would do things differently. I don't know if he feels called in spirit to continue speaking. And if he is, I'm not about to go against the Spirit.

But if k4c started to be rude or obnoxious, then I would certainly not stand up for him. Speaking what he believes to be truth may annoy and cause resentment and resistance, but that is not being rude or unChristian.
 
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