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What part of "requirements of the LAW will be FULFILLED IN US" don't you get?

Adventist Dissident

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really how much clearer dose it have to be? What do you really need.

The law is in the heart not on stone? How much of if you break one command you are sinning do you not under stand?

Pauls says we establish the Law by faith? pretty clear.


So what is your problem. Is it the fact that you are doing it? is that the part that troubles you? Really is obey Jesus really that bad of an idea or jesus setting some time aside to that fellowship and a blessing. is that really such a bad thing? please if you don't want to spend time with Jesus. you are in the Wrong religion. Maybe you need to look elsewhere.
 

Byfaithalone1

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The law is in the heart not on stone?

The law to which you refer cannot be the old covenant law. Hebrews 8 confirms that the new covenant is not like the old and that the old is obsolete.

How much of if you break one command you are sinning do you not under stand?

Sin exists even in the absence of law. It existed before the law was added (see Deut. 5:1-5). It exists since the Seed came (see Galatians 3). It exists because the Spirit convicts men with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment (see John 14 and 16).

Pauls says we establish the Law by faith? pretty clear.

Indeed! We establish the law by faith, not by obedience or works (see Romans 3 in context).

So what is your problem.

Do I have a problem?

Is it the fact that you are doing it?

Doing what? Sinning? You can be sure of that. In fact, there is no truth in any man who claims to be without sin (see 1 John 3).

Really is obey Jesus really that bad of an idea or jesus setting some time aside to that fellowship and a blessing.

Not at all. If the sabbath is a blessing for you then I am very happy for you. Do you find a similar blessing in the feast of weeks, the feast of unleavened bread, the day of atonement and the passover (see Leviticus 23)? If not, why not?

is that really such a bad thing? please if you don't want to spend time with Jesus. you are in the Wrong religion. Maybe you need to look elsewhere.

Why do you conclude that I "don't want to spend time with Jesus?" This is hardly my position. I have consistently advocated that we serve a God who we have the privilege to worship every day of the week, either corporately or individually. It is you who seeks to limit worship to one day out of seven. As for me, I cannot wait that long to worship my God and/or to spend time with Him. Certainly, you don't mean to imply that the sabbath is the only time that you "spend time with Jesus."

BFA
 
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Cribstyl

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......A response to "
What part of "We're not under the law" dont you understand? Why not engage in that dialog????

really how much clearer dose it have to be? What do you really need.

If this is your commentary on Rom 8:4 you get a 0pts for clarity, by referencing text or making factual quotations.


First, let us post the text that you're trying to expound on.... ROM 8:4

The complete sentence to that statement would include verse Rom 8:3 also.

Rom 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The texts in this context explains in Ch#8, "what the law could not do", This letter is cosistently delcaring why Paul's letter explained in chapter #6 "we're not under the law and in Ch#7 "we're divorced from the law".

God sent Jesus to die, so that the requirements of the law can be fulfilled in us, not "by us."

Why is your commentary about us keeping the law Ice?:confused:

You appear to conclude that the requirements of the law is to be fulfilled by us.

One good question is
; "how are the requirements of the law fulfilled in us?"

One explanation is this; The law requires blood, because the wage of sin is death unless all it's requirements are met.

Jesus kept all the law so His died for the sins of the world, and by faith in Him, we have imputed righteousness.
We die "symbolically" through the ordinance of baptism, but the blood of Jesus is what was shed for our sins.

ICE I beleive you know that our salvation is base on what Jesus did, not on our efforts to keep the law.
Yes ICE we're also in agreement that we're called to live Holy lives.
Bible doctrines show that this is only accomplished through a relationship as children of God and with help of the Holy Spirit.
The doctrines of faith contains hundred of commandments written in the New Testament. We disagree that we're under the 10 commandments the New Covenant we're under.



The law is in the heart not on stone? How much of if you break one command you are sinning do you not under stand?
The text in question is talking about the burden of whole law (613commandments),but some use this text to support the sabbath commandmentJam 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

It's most likely that what is called God's law written on our heart are not the ten commandments given at Sinai.
If you've been convinced that the Old Covenant is the New Covenant we're in disagreement.

By the standard of the 10 commandments some people measure that they're about 80-90 proof and they will get ino heaven wth tears and solemn regrets.

The fact has already been made clear in this letter to the Romans that, from now on, righteousness without the law is God's standard of judgment.Rom 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

So if the law and the prophets wrote about it....CHANGE OF THE LAW WAS INEVITABLE. Christ said He came to fulfill all that was written in the law and the prophets..
Pauls says we establish the Law by faith? pretty clear.
Your understanding of that is questionable, but we're not going to ignor what you believe.
So what is your problem. Is it the fact that you are doing it? is that the part that troubles you? Really is obey Jesus really that bad of an idea or jesus setting some time aside to that fellowship and a blessing. is that really such a bad thing? please if you don't want to spend time with Jesus. you are in the Wrong religion. Maybe you need to look elsewhere.

Best wishes in your judgment.
CRIB
 
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Cribstyl

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Ice D.......I edit out some pointed communication from my previous response. #3
:bow:I appreciate that you chose to ignor rather than respond to that mess:o.

Hopefully you can continue your thoughts in creating that thread.


In brotherhood
CRIB
 
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believehim

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really how much clearer dose it have to be? What do you really need.

The law is in the heart not on stone? How much of if you break one command you are sinning do you not under stand?

Pauls says we establish the Law by faith? pretty clear.


So what is your problem. Is it the fact that you are doing it? is that the part that troubles you? Really is obey Jesus really that bad of an idea or jesus setting some time aside to that fellowship and a blessing. is that really such a bad thing? please if you don't want to spend time with Jesus. you are in the Wrong religion. Maybe you need to look elsewhere.


Maybe when we understand that we are sin, we will get it.
 
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believehim

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really how much clearer dose it have to be? What do you really need.

The law is in the heart not on stone? How much of if you break one command you are sinning do you not under stand?

Pauls says we establish the Law by faith? pretty clear.


So what is your problem. Is it the fact that you are doing it? is that the part that troubles you? Really is obey Jesus really that bad of an idea or jesus setting some time aside to that fellowship and a blessing. is that really such a bad thing? please if you don't want to spend time with Jesus. you are in the Wrong religion. Maybe you need to look elsewhere.



From you post it is clearly understood you have no idea what the passage is talking about. The passage has nothing to do with a set of commandments which you break everyday. It has to do with righteousness. the law demands righteousness. The law demands 100% perfection. Do you have that? I doubt it. IF you read the entire context instead of the cut and twist method that many rely on, you would understand that the righteous requirement was met by Christ alone and imputed to those who live a life of faith in the Spirit.
 
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believehim

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Sin exists even in the absence of law. It existed before the law was added (see Deut. 5:1-5). It exists since the Seed came (see Galatians 3). It exists because the Spirit convicts men with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment (see John 14 and 16).


BFA

Can you prove this from scripture? Last I checked this notion was false.
 
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JonMiller

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Byfaithalone1 is using his own definition of law/etc, he isn't worth talking to on this subject as he isn't speaking standard english despite appearences.

JM
(To be more exact, for him law = 10 commandments and 10 commandments = law, and there is no differences. Despite there being 100% disagreement on this definition by every other person on earth, and I think even he knows that this defition is false despite maintaining oherwise.)
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Jon,

In your post, do we find Christianity in action?

Byfaithalone1 is using his own definition of law/etc

What definition is that?

he isn't worth talking to

Ouch.

he isn't speaking standard english despite appearences.

What language am I speaking?

To be more exact, for him law = 10 commandments and 10 commandments = law, and there is no difference

I certainly believe that the law includes the ten commandments, but I do not believe that the law is limited to the ten commandments.

Despite there being 100% disagreement on this definition by every other person on earth

Every other person on earth? Hmmmm.

I think even he knows that this defition is false despite maintaining oherwise

Should I conclude that this makes me dishonest? Or disingenuous?

From your post, I have learned that we must love one another only if the "other" agrees with us. If not, the gloves are off.

BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Can you prove this from scripture? Last I checked this notion was false.

Did you read the Scriptures I cited?

Per Deut. 5:1-5, the covenant that included the law was not with Moses' forefathers. Note that the very context of this chapter is the ten commandments.

Per Gal. 3, the law was added because of transgressions 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed came.

And yet, sin existed prior to Abraham and it continues to exist even after the Seed came. Sin exists even in the absence of law. Per John 14 and 16, it exists because the Spirit convicts men with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment.

Is there a specific aspect of this that you would like to discuss in more depth?

BFA
 
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believehim

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Did you read the Scriptures I cited?

Per Deut. 5:1-5, the covenant that included the law was not with Moses' forefathers. Note that the very context of this chapter is the ten commandments.

Per Gal. 3, the law was added because of transgressions 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed came.

And yet, sin existed prior to Abraham and it continues to exist even after the Seed came. Sin exists even in the absence of law. Per John 14 and 16, it exists because the Spirit convicts men with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment.

Is there a specific aspect of this that you would like to discuss in more depth?

BFA


What you are tying to say is that sin was around before Moses written law. Yes it was, but it was not around without A law. If acts of sin was around without A law God is evil and therefore not God at all. Every effect has a cause. Sin does not just appear for no reason. Do you know of an effect without a cause other than God himself? And God is not arbitrary as this theology suggest.


B
 
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Byfaithalone1

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What you are tying to say is that sin was around before Moses written law. Yes it was, but it was not around without A law.

If Deuteronomy 5 and Galatians 3 are accurate, then the law was added. It did not always exist.

BFA
 
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believehim

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If Deuteronomy 5 and Galatians 3 are accurate, then the law was added. It did not always exist.

BFA


The Mosaic law or written law did not exist before it was given to Moses by God. That is what Deuteronomy and Galatians 3 are talking about. But there was law before Moses. Here's an example:


Gen 20:1 From there Abraham journeyed toward the territory of the Negeb and lived between Kadesh and Shur; and he sojourned in Gerar.
Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."
Gen 20:4 Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, "Lord, will you kill an innocent people?
Gen 20:5 Did he not himself say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she herself said, 'He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this."
Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.
Gen 20:7 Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.


Now how did Abimelech know that this was a sin? Why did God say I have kept you from sinning against me? There is evidence that they understood this was a law. What we don't have is evidence it was written down some where. We do have evidence that God manifested what was expected over in Romans chapter 1.

B.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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The Mosaic law or written law did not exist before it was given to Moses by God. That is what Deuteronomy and Galatians 3 are talking about. But there was law before Moses. Here's an example:


Gen 20:1 From there Abraham journeyed toward the territory of the Negeb and lived between Kadesh and Shur; and he sojourned in Gerar.
Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."
Gen 20:4 Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, "Lord, will you kill an innocent people?
Gen 20:5 Did he not himself say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she herself said, 'He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this."
Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.
Gen 20:7 Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.


Now how did Abimelech know that this was a sin? Why did God say I have kept you from sinning against me? There is evidence that they understood this was a law. What we don't have is evidence it was written down some where. We do have evidence that God manifested what was expected over in Romans chapter 1.

B.

We certainly agree that sin existed before the law was added. I would imagine that we also agree that God's Spirit existed before the law was added. However, I do not find anything in your post that confirms that the law existed before the law was added.

Just as sin existed before the law was added, so also sin exists since the Seed has come. Why is this true? Because the Spirit convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment (see John 14 and John 16).

BFA
 
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believehim

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We certainly agree that sin existed before the law was added. I would imagine that we also agree that God's Spirit existed before the law was added. However, I do not find anything in your post that confirms that the law existed beforethe law was added.

Just as sin existed before the law was added, so also sin exists since the Seed has come. Why is this true? Because the Spirit convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment (see John 14 and John 16).

BFA

What do you mean by THE LAW in you post above? You added a definite article to the word law. What law are you speaking of in that sense?


This is one of the main verses many base that teaching on.

(Rom 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Now this is what the word law is in the greek.

νόμος
nomos
Definition:
1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
1a) of any law whatsoever
1a1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
1a1a) by the observance of which is approved of God
1a2) a precept or injunction
1a3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
1b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
1c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love
1d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
Part of Speech: noun masculine


Do you deny that God gave a law to Adam in the garden? Tho we don't see it written, it was verbal. Before Adams fall sin was not in the world. It amazes me those who are advocating what you are teaching never read the whole text.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It clearly says, sin entered by one man. Who was that one man? Adam. And what law did he break?

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now here is the most important point.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


Without law, sin has no power. That is why Paul can say what he says over in Romans.


Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


om 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

But hey. If you want to go on believing a lie go ahead. I came out of the Adventist church like you. I gave up the sabbath and many of the false doctrines of the church. So I am on your side. But many who did come out are believing a lie about sin coming before law. Yes it was here before the MOSAIC LAW but not all law. God is righteous, and what ever is not righteous is sin....why? Because by His nature, law is already established.

B
 
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Byfaithalone1

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What do you mean by THE LAW in you post above? You added a definite article to the word law. What law are you speaking of in that sense?


This is one of the main verses many base that teaching on.

(Rom 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Now this is what the word law is in the greek.

νόμος
nomos
Definition:
1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
1a) of any law whatsoever
1a1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
1a1a) by the observance of which is approved of God
1a2) a precept or injunction
1a3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
1b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
1c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love
1d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
Part of Speech: noun masculine


Do you deny that God gave a law to Adam in the garden? Tho we don't see it written, it was verbal. Before Adams fall sin was not in the world. It amazes me those who are advocating what you are teaching never read the whole text.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It clearly says, sin entered by one man. Who was that one man? Adam. And what law did he break?

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now here is the most important point.

1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


Without law, sin has no power. That is why Paul can say what he says over in Romans.


Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


om 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

But hey. If you want to go on believing a lie go ahead. I came out of the Adventist church like you. I gave up the sabbath and many of the false doctrines of the church. So I am on your side. But many who did come out are believing a lie about sin coming before law. Yes it was here before the MOSAIC LAW but not all law. God is righteous, and what ever is not righteous is sin....why? Because by His nature, law is already established.

B

You seem to be changing the subject. The context for my comments has been the book of Galatians. Chapter 3 teaches that "the law" is that which was added 430 years after Abraham. In Chapter 4, it describes special days and months and seasons and years and it compares the covenant that was "from Sinai" to slave woman Hagar. Care to comment?

God has given verbal commands since creation. Adam sinned even before "the law" was added. Clearly, sin existed even before "the law" was added. You seem to define every verbal command as "the law." Does "the law" apply to all persons for all of time? Does God's command to Adam apply to you?

BFA
 
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cesty

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A Law existed prior to sin:

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4 KJV)

Another law was added as a result of the first Law being transgressed in some way:

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." (Galatians 3:19 KJV)

The first is what is known as the moral Law; and the second is what is to be understood as the ceremonial/sacrificial law.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." (Titus 3:9-11 KJV)
 
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Byfaithalone1

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A Law existed prior to sin:

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4 KJV)

Another law was added as a result of the first Law being transgressed in some way:

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." (Galatians 3:19 KJV)

The first is what is known as the moral Law; and the second is what is to be understood as the ceremonial/sacrificial law.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." (Titus 3:9-11 KJV)
1. You've offered only one Biblical definition of sin. Are you aware that there are others, including:
(i) To every man who knows to do right and does it not, to him it is sin.
(ii) All wrong doing is sin.
These definitions are not dependent upon the existence of the law that was added 430 years after Abraham. This has been and continues to be my point.

2. You claim that the law was added because of transgression of law. How can law be added if it already existed. Once we acknowledge that there are other Biblical definitions of sin, we realize that "transgression" was possible even before the law was added.

3. You claim that the Bible differentiates between "moral" and "ceremonial" and yet you've offered no Biblical evidence. Titus 3 offers no such distinction. If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial, why is the fourth commandment listed so consistently among the commands you view as ceremonial (for example, see Leviticus 23 and Exodus 34)?

Consider the following:
(i) According to Romans 7, we are to die to the law that includes the ten commandments (see Verse 7).

(ii) According to 2 Corinthians 3, the letters engraved on stones are the ministry that brings death that pales in comparison with the ministry that brings life.

(iii) According to Galatians 4, God gave the command to get rid of the slave woman who represents the covenant that was from Sinai.
None of these passages support your position that the Bible differentiates between moral and ceremonial laws. In fact, the phrases "moral law" and "ceremonial law" cannot even be found in Scripture.

BFA
 
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believehim

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You seem to be changing the subject. The context for my comments has been the book of Galatians. Chapter 3 teaches that "the law" is that which was added 430 years after Abraham. In Chapter 4, it describes special days and months and seasons and years and it compares the covenant that was "from Sinai" to slave woman Hagar. Care to comment?

God has given verbal commands since creation. Adam sinned even before "the law" was added. Clearly, sin existed even before "the law" was added. You seem to define every verbal command as "the law." Does "the law" apply to all persons for all of time? Does God's command to Adam apply to you?

BFA


No I am not changing the subject...I have been telling you the same thing throughout the thread....Here is post number 11 to you.

[ quote] What you are tying to say is that sin was around before Moses written law. Yes it was, but it was not around without A law. If acts of sin was around without A law God is evil and therefore not God at all. Every effect has a cause. Sin does not just appear for no reason. Do you know of an effect without a cause other than God himself? And God is not arbitrary as this theology suggest.[/quote]

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believehim

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You seem to be changing the subject. The context for my comments has been the book of Galatians. Chapter 3 teaches that "the law" is that which was added 430 years after Abraham. In Chapter 4, it describes special days and months and seasons and years and it compares the covenant that was "from Sinai" to slave woman Hagar. Care to comment?

God has given verbal commands since creation. Adam sinned even before "the law" was added. Clearly, sin existed even before "the law" was added. You seem to define every verbal command as "the law." Does "the law" apply to all persons for all of time? Does God's command to Adam apply to you?

BFA


Sorry but I dont think you are paying attention to detail. Did you read my post? I asked you about the definite article you are using when you say law. You wrote "the law" It has a definite article pointing to a specific law which is the Mosaic law. I said law you said the law. In romans 5:12 Paul used the definite article "the" showing us he had a specific law in mind. Many x-adventist also claim that there was sin before law which is not true. Did you see the bible definitions I supplied? They point out that the command to Adam is the same as law.


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