what part of Atonement is Jesus' atoning sacrifice (NIV) 1 John 2:2 ?

[BobRyan]

1 John 2:2 "2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

The atoning sacrifice made at the cross is full , once for all and completed.

Wait? what about animals making atonement for sin?

Heb 10:4
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

once for all time - the body of Christ was sacrificed and now he lives, and is seated at the right hand of the Father

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

================================

The offering for sin - the atoning sacrifice is paid once for all at the cross.

So then what "else" is included in the Bible term "atonement"?

In Lev 16 "The Day of Atonement" -- the sacrifice of the "Sin offering" did not complete the service.. The High Priest did other things after the goat was sacrificed - Christ is now our High Priest in heaven - and has the sacrifice - the blood - of the lamb of God being presented in our behalf.

In the Bible the sin offering was followed by the work of high priest on the Day of Atonement. And even on the day of Atonement - the sacrifice of the sin offering (the Lord's goat) was followed by the work of the High Priest administering it in the sanctuary for the people.

 

[BobRyan]

having completed the Atoning Sacrifice - Christ our High Priest now ministers in the heavenly sanctuary to apply the benefits of that atonement to each individual

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 8:1 "Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant,

Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Tim 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

And yet - it is the "few" of Matt 7 that will be saved in the end.

 

[BobRyan]

-- but all that work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary will one day come to an end.

Rev 15:7-8
7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

And then follows the 7 last plagues

Rev 16:1 "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.

 

[timothyu]

He sacrificed His life but He wasn't a sacrifice. Man likes to think that because they were responsible for His murder as God knew they would be, and they refused to take responsibility for it, calling it necessary instead.

 

[Fervent]

Looking to a single OT sacrifice for what atonement means will leave an incomplete picture. Each sacrifice served a slightly different purpose, and Jesus isn't explicitly linked with all of them. Those He is linked with serve the following purposes:

Passover- wrath is averted
Sin- The outer tent is cleansed
Peace- Fellowship is restored
Day of Atonement- The inner temple is cleansed so God may continue to dwell

 

[BobRyan]

1 John 2:2 "2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

He sacrificed His life but He wasn't a sacrifice.

Is 53:
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

 

[d taylor]

Jesus took away the sin of the world, making everyone eligible to receive Gods free gift of Eternal life. Not everyone will, so their eternal life will remain unreceived, as they spend eternity in the lake of fire. But they go to the lake of fire not because of their sins, but because they did not receive Gods free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[timothyu]

He was wounded for our transgressions,

Yes, we murdered Him

the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

Yes the Father had Him follow through in one final test of whether He would continue to put the will of the Father ahead His own. Kingship doesn't come cheap. Jesus must prove worthy and show He will be loyal to the Father even in the Kingdom where the Father will dwell.

He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,

Yes He was an innocent who had no choice in the matter if He wanted t remain innocent.

For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Yep. Their self serving ways slaughtered an innocent so they could maintain their ways over the ways of the Kingdom. The Gospel of the Kingdom was clear what kind of beings we are as compared to the ways of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we murdered Him


Yes the Father had Him follow through in one final test of whether He would continue to put the will of the Father ahead His own. Kingship doesn't come cheap. Jesus must prove worthy and show He will be loyal to the Father even in the Kingdom where the Father will dwell.


Yes He was an innocent who had no choice in the matter if He wanted t remain innocent.


Yep. Their self serving ways slaughtered an innocent so they could maintain their ways over the ways of the Kingdom. The Gospel of the Kingdom was clear what kind of beings we are as compared to the ways of God.

While it is true that mankind is fallen and has a sinful nature.

It is not true that God the Son had no choice in what He would do to save mankind from the lake of fire we were doomed to, having fallen.

He could have at any moment "changed the outcome".

He even says to Peter -- " 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?” Matt 26:53-54

He laid down His life: 1 John 3:16 "16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Jesus is of His own will making the atoning sacrifice -- choosing far in advance to do it - and when asked at the very moment it is happening He says He is fully aware of the escape He could right then choose if He so desired - but the argument against doing it according to Christ is --"4 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

This is not a "helpless Jesus" scenario. It is Jesus as ultimate warrior - savior of mankind - all powerful redeemer.

 

[bling]

having completed the Atoning Sacrifice - Christ our High Priest now ministers in the heavenly sanctuary to apply the benefits of that atonement to each individual

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 8:1 "Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant,

Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Tim 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

And yet - it is the "few" of Matt 7 that will be saved in the end.

I have not solved the problem of where to begin the explanation, but it might be best to go back to the Jewish understanding of atonement learned from actually individually personally going through the atonement process. Christians lack this experience and instead have developed preconceived ideas of atonement from poor theories.

First off: If you are forgiven 100% then there is nothing to pay and if Christ paid 100% there is nothing to forgive. That is Law.

Penal Substitution is not fair/just where you have the innocent being punished (even if the innocent is willing to be punished) so the guilty can go free.

The “Satisfaction Theory of Atonement” put the problem of forgiveness in God’s lap needing Christ to be cruelly, tortured, humiliated and murdered (sounding very blood thirsty) in order to be personally satisfied to forgive.

God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more then just forgiveness, since if at all possible, a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”.

The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:


Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

Please think up some questions to ask me.

 

[BobRyan]

First off: If you are forgiven 100% then there is nothing to pay and if Christ paid 100% there is nothing to forgive. That is Law.

That is true - when all aspects of atonement are complete (not just the atoning sacrifice) it is "game over"

So then how "instructive" that there is the Lev 16 "end of year" service - called the Day of Atonement that deals with all the sins already confessed and atoned for over the course of the entire year.

It is a type of judgment day review of the books that Daniel 7 talks about.

 

[BobRyan]

Penal Substitution is not fair/just where you have the innocent being punished (even if the innocent is willing to be punished) so the guilty can go free.

The “Satisfaction Theory of Atonement” put the problem of forgiveness in God’s lap needing Christ to be cruelly, tortured, humiliated and murdered (sounding very blood thirsty) in order to be personally satisfied to forgive.

God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more then just forgiveness, since if at all possible, a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process .

So in the case of sin - the crime is treason. "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4. Sin takes one of God's children (which is yourself) and makes them guilty of treason and doomed to the death sentence "the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23.

So then in the Jewish system there was no "spanking the lamb" or "speaking loudly to the lamb" of the sin offering. The payment owed is always death.

And as Rev 14:10, and Rev 20 show us it is the torment and suffering ("second death" Rev 20) in fire and brimstone lake of fire - where the Luke 12:46-48 payment owed specific to each person based on cases - is to be paid. Some get "many stripes" and others "few" according to Christ in Luke 12. And "both body and soul destroyed in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 is the result according to Christ - once all is completed.

So then Justice for the crime must do 4 things
1. Get rid of the criminal - preserving society
2. Use a method that is a deterrent to all future crime of that sort.
3. Base the amount/degree of torment on deeds - not infinite punishment for finite crime.
3. Fulfill the demands of the Legal code governing offenses. (Death decree). Instead of deleting the law for speeding, the ticket upholds it.

So it is easy to see how all of that is satisfied when the sinner is resurrected and judged and case into the lake of fire in Rev 20 after the millennium.

But what about in the case of substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Christ?
1. Did we get rid of the offender? -- yes. The new birth and dying to self - Rom 6, the new creation of 2Cor 5.
2. Did we use a method that is a deterrent to all future would-be offenders? Yes - the death of Christ is a deterrent to all the people of God.
3. Does the punishment fit the crime? - yes the exact debt owed is paid.
4. Is the law satisfied in that the penalty it prescribes is paid? yes.

 

[bling]

That is true - when all aspects of atonement are complete (not just the atoning sacrifice) it is "game over"

So then how "instructive" that there is the Lev 16 "end of year" service - called the Day of Atonement that deals with all the sins already confessed and atoned for over the course of the entire year.

It is a type of judgment day review of the books that Daniel 7 talks about.

Lev. 16 takes some explaining:

First off: what “sins” are we talking about? We know from Lev.5 how unintentional sins are to be handled and from other scripture we know how direct disobedience against God sins are handled (death or banishment). Lev. 16 is kind of a catchall for all other possible sins. These sins are ones you are not even sure you committed or are not sure they are even sins. The sins in Lev. 5 are very minor sins you do come to realize as sins, while in Lev. 16 you do not know.

However, Leviticus 16 references the Day of Atonement sacrifices, which is the foreshadowing of Christ.

Shadows are very weak representations of the reality they are a shadow of. Lev. 5 maybe a better shadow of the reality. There is some stuff in Lev. 16 which helps a little in explaining what Christ did on the cross, but Christ is not trying to be the replacement for Lev. 16, since the sacrifice on the day of atonement did very little and would not “save” an individual.

Hebrews 10: NASB

1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,

but a body you prepared for me;

6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings

you were not pleased.

The Hebrew writer is not praising the day of Atonement as being something really helpful, but does help the people remember how bad they are.

Heb. 9: 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance… 9…not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.

It is only for sins committed in ignorance and it did little.

 

[bling]

So in the case of sin - the crime is treason. "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4. Sin takes one of God's children (which is yourself) and makes them guilty of treason and doomed to the death sentence "the wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23.

So then in the Jewish system there was no "spanking the lamb" or "speaking loudly to the lamb" of the sin offering. The payment owed is always death.

And as Rev 14:10, and Rev 20 show us it is the torment and suffering ("second death" Rev 20) in fire and brimstone lake of fire - where the Luke 12:46-48 payment owed specific to each person based on cases - is to be paid. Some get "many stripes" and others "few" according to Christ in Luke 12. And "both body and soul destroyed in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 is the result according to Christ - once all is completed.

So then Justice for the crime must do 4 things
1. Get rid of the criminal - preserving society
2. Use a method that is a deterrent to all future crime of that sort.
3. Base the amount/degree of torment on deeds - not infinite punishment for finite crime.
3. Fulfill the demands of the Legal code governing offenses. (Death decree). Instead of deleting the law for speeding, the ticket upholds it.

So it is easy to see how all of that is satisfied when the sinner is resurrected and judged and case into the lake of fire in Rev 20 after the millennium.

But what about in the case of substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Christ?
1. Did we get rid of the offender? -- yes. The new birth and dying to self - Rom 6, the new creation of 2Cor 5.
2. Did we use a method that is a deterrent to all future would-be offenders? Yes - the death of Christ is a deterrent to all the people of God.
3. Does the punishment fit the crime? - yes the exact debt owed is paid.
4. Is the law satisfied in that the penalty it prescribes is paid? yes.

There is lots I agree with in your argument but you are forgetting one main factor:
We are not dealing with some civil legal system written by some “law giver”, but with a very Loving Father and His children. There is a huge difference between Loving disciplining of the child who has humbly willingly lovingly accepted the Parents discipline and the stranger who has refused the loving discipline and is to be punished. Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?


Is death bad (punishment) in and of itself?

Did Christ spend eternity in Hell?

Try just this small part of it:

There is this unbelievable huge “ransom payment” being made: Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and the author of Hebrews all describe it as an actual ransom scenario and not just “like a ransom scenario”. And we can all agree on: the payment being Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder, the Payer being God/Christ, the child being set free (sinners going to God), but have a problem with: “Who is the kidnapper”? If there is no kidnapper than the ransom scenario does not fit, so who is the kidnapper?

Some people try to make God the receiver of the payment, which calls God the kidnapper of His own children which is crazy.

Some people say satan is the kidnapper, but that would mean God is paying satan when God has the power to safely take anything from satan and it would be wrong for God to pay satan.

Some say it is an intangible like death, evil, sin, or nothing, but you would not pay a huge payment to an intangible?

There is one very likely kidnapper and that is the person holding a child back from entering the Kingdom to be with God. When we go to the nonbeliever, we are not trying to convince them of an idea, a book, a doctrine or theology, but to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified (which is described as the ransom payment). If the nonbeliever accepts the ransom payment (Jesus Christ) there is a child released to go to the Father, but if the nonbeliever refuses to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified a child is kept out of the Kingdom. Does this all sounds very much like a kidnapping scenario?

Yes, Christ is the ransom payment for all, but the kidnapper can accept or reject the payment. If the kidnapper rejects this unbelievable huge payment, the payers of the ransom are going to be upset with that kidnapper.

There is a lot more to say about this, but this is an introduction.

 

[BobRyan]

Lev. 16 takes some explaining:

First off: what “sins” are we talking about? We know from Lev.5 how unintentional sins are to be handled and from other scripture we know how direct disobedience against God sins are handled (death or banishment). Lev. 16 is kind of a catchall for all other possible sins.

all sins -- cleansing
29 “This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble yourselves and not do any work, ...30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord.

Atonement for the sanctuary, the altar, the tent of meeting, and all the people
32 So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father’s place shall make atonement: he shall put on the linen garments, the holy garments, 33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly

all sins -- during the year
34 "Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.”

sin offering making atonement for all the people
24 And he shall bathe his body with water in a holy place and put on his clothes, and come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, and make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

===================================
Daily service vs the end-of-year Day of Atonement:

Daily service:

In Lev 5:4-6 we see that the sinner must confess his sin as part of this act of seeking forgiveness.

Leviticus 4, begins with a sacrifice. When a sacrifice was offered for the sins of the entire congregation, the blood was taken by the priest, who represented Jesus (Hebrews 3:1), into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the veil which separated the Holy and the Most Holy place.

In Lev 10:16-18 we see that sin is transferred in the daily as part of the sin offering -- from the people to the tent of meeting by the act of the Priests.

Lev 10

16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying,

17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”


Sins were transferred to the sanctuary from the sinner during the daily service...either by bringing the blood of the sin offering into the sanctuary or by the priest eating part of it and then going into the sanctuary.

As you said "Shadows are very weak representations of the reality they are a shadow of" - but in this case the shadow tells us that something related to the sin is being transferred to the sanctuary all during the year during the daily service. Then at the end of year "Day of Atonement" service not only do we have forgiveness for all sins during the entire year - but also atonement for the altar and the sanctuary.

 

[bling]

all sins -- cleansing

29 “This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble yourselves and not do any work, ...30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord.

Atonement for the sanctuary, the altar, the tent of meeting, and all the people
32 So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father’s place shall make atonement: he shall put on the linen garments, the holy garments, 33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar. He shall also make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly

all sins -- during the year
34 "Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.”

sin offering making atonement for all the people
24 And he shall bathe his body with water in a holy place and put on his clothes, and come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, and make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

If a Jew under the Old Law committed adultery the day before the day of atonement and hid out to the day after the day of Atonement was the adulterer to be stoned?

When Leviticus says “all sins” and Hebrew says: “sins committed in ignorance” to be both right Lev. has to be referring to all other sins not addressed already in Leviticus, all previous sins were either already atoned for or the people were not around anymore, so it would be all the sins of the people at that time which could only be the sins they were ignorant of.

Heb 7
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

===================================
Daily service vs the end-of-year Day of Atonement:

Daily service:

In Lev 5:4-6 we see that the sinner must confess his sin as part of this act of seeking forgiveness.



In Lev 10:16-18 we see that sin is transferred in the daily as part of the sin offering -- from the people to the tent of meeting by the act of the Priests.

Lev 10

16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying,

17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”


Sins were transferred to the sanctuary from the sinner during the daily service...either by bringing the blood of the sin offering into the sanctuary or by the priest eating part of it and then going into the sanctuary.

As you said "Shadows are very weak representations of the reality they are a shadow of" - but in this case the shadow tells us that something related to the sin is being transferred to the sanctuary all during the year during the daily service. Then at the end of year "Day of Atonement" service not only do we have forgiveness for all sins during the entire year - but also atonement for the altar and the sanctuary.

There are lots of sins that did have sin offerings and could be forgiven, but the other sins resulted in immediate death or banishment. The only sins not addressed were sins of ignorance. It was also a sin for the priest to do the offering incorrectly. Do you think sins of rebellious disobedience could be atoned for at any time including on the day of atonement if these people were to be killed or banished?

 

[timothyu]

He even says to Peter -- " 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?” Matt 26:53-54

It wasn't about saving himself. It was about us and offering us a choice between Kingdom and world of man.

He laid down His life: 1 John 3:16 "16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

Yes. The only way we could be saved is if he reversed what Eve had done. He died even though He could have called it quits, because He had to do the will of the Father and not Himself or bow to the desires of His Apostles. Of course none of this would have been necessary if man wasn't so self absorbed and willing to kill anything that gets in our way. You don't hear much of that taught in church. Easier to avoid the fact we were responsible for the whole thing.

John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Again.. the Father's will, not His own. Had He followed His own, no resurrection, no Kingdom and no salvation for man.

Jesus is of His own will making the atoning sacrifice -- choosing far in advance to do it - and when asked at the very moment it is happening He says He is fully aware of the escape He could right then choose if He so desired - but the argument against doing it according to Christ is --"4 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

Yes He made a CHOICE as we must, to follow the will of the Father and not His/our own

This is not a "helpless Jesus" scenario.

It was a suicide mission from the start because God knows the ways of mankind, just as He knew what gentiles 'princes' would do with their Christian religion. He wasn't helpless as He could have taken a way out. But he didn't. He knew he must follow the will of the Father where He may lose the flesh but gain the spirit. Choice.
Man is destructive and self centred and anyone coming and telling us we have it all backwards isn't going to be3 welcomed with open arms but destroyed. Kind of the same reasoning as on forums where people are mocked and ridiculed if someone feels threatened.

 

[BobRyan]

The point is that the daily service was for transferring sin from the sinner to the Sanctuary.

The yearly Day of Atonement service was for cleansing sanctuary, altar, and the people - so the sins transferred to the sanctuary were fully atoned for.

I think they replaced the curtain in front of the altar of incense at that time with its sprinkled blood from all the sin offerings of the entire year.

If a Jew under the Old Law committed adultery the day before the day of atonement and hid out to the day after the day of Atonement was the adulterer to be stoned?

The Day of Atonement was a day of solemn assembly and for repentance and removal of all sin. If someone was guilty there was the fear that the High Priest would be slain if he went into the Most Holy place and the people had rebellion in the camp. They tied a rope around his ankle in the event he was slain in the MHP at that point so they could pull him out.

They took this whole thing very seriously.

This was not a "catch-all" for "other sins not confessed and for sin offering not claimed" this was for the final resolution of all sins transferred to the sanctuary.

That is why Moses was so angry that in that one case they had not transferred the sins to the sanctuary.

Daily service vs the end-of-year Day of Atonement:

Daily service:

In Lev 5:4-6 we see that the sinner must confess his sin as part of this act of seeking forgiveness.

Leviticus 4, begins with a sacrifice. When a sacrifice was offered for the sins of the entire congregation, the blood was taken by the priest, who represented Jesus (Hebrews 3:1), into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the veil which separated the Holy and the Most Holy place.

In Lev 10:16-18 we see that sin is transferred to the sanctuary in the daily as part of the sin offering -- from the people to the tent of meeting by the act of the Priests.

Lev 10

16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying,

17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”


Sins were transferred to the sanctuary from the sinner during the daily service...either by bringing the blood of the sin offering into the sanctuary or by the priest eating part of it and then going into the sanctuary.

As you said "Shadows are very weak representations of the reality they are a shadow of" - but in this case the shadow tells us that something related to the sin is being transferred to the sanctuary all during the year during the daily service. Then at the end of year "Day of Atonement" service not only do we have forgiveness for all sins during the entire year - but also atonement for the altar and the sanctuary.

 

[bling]

The point is that the daily service was for transferring sin from the sinner to the Sanctuary.

The yearly Day of Atonement service was for cleansing sanctuary, altar, and the people - so the sins transferred to the sanctuary were fully atoned for.

I think they replaced the curtain in front of the altar of incense at that time with its sprinkled blood from all the sin offerings of the entire year.



The Day of Atonement was a day of solemn assembly and for repentance and removal of all sin. If someone was guilty there was the fear that the High Priest would be slain if he went into the Most Holy place and the people had rebellion in the camp. They tied a rope around his ankle in the event he was slain in the MHP at that point so they could pull him out.

They took this whole thing very seriously.

This was not a "catch-all" for "other sins not confessed and for sin offering not claimed" this was for the final resolution of all sins transferred to the sanctuary.

That is why Moses was so angry that in that one case they had not transferred the sins to the sanctuary.

You did not address my question even though you are saying you have a good understanding of Leviticus:

Let’s just say: a person intentional rebelliously, with full knowledge of the Law picks up sticks on the Sabbath before The Day of Atonement and is discovered what he did the day after the Day of Atonement, is he to be stoned?

I read Lev. and the other OT books, explaining in detail what should be done for every type of sin, with nothing said about “daily sacrifices of atoning for any and all sins” or “placing these sins in the temple”, for any sins other then unintentional sins or sins that might be considered human lusting for physical things and not direct rebellion against God.

The offence of Aaron’s sons was: Lev. 6: 26 The priest who offers it shall eat it; it is to be eaten in the sanctuary area, in the courtyard of the tent of meeting.

Where do you find these “sins” being “transferred” to the sanctuary?

The sanctuary was kept cleansed and Holy, sins after the correct sacrificing were forgiven, but only some sins could be both atoned for and forgiven.

 

[BobRyan]

You did not address my question even though you are saying you have a good understanding of Leviticus:

Let’s just say: a person intentional rebelliously, with full knowledge of the Law picks up sticks on the Sabbath before The Day of Atonement and is discovered what he did the day after the Day of Atonement, is he to be stoned? .

I did address it by pointing out that the Day of Atonement service only deals with sins transferred to the sanctuary -- in your hypothetical you say that the sin was never confessed .. no daily service addressed it... so it never was transferred to the sanctuary and therefore the Day of Atonement did not provide any atonement related to that sin.

Where do you find these “sins” being “transferred” to the sanctuary?

That was shown in Lev 10 a few times on this thread.

Daily service vs the end-of-year Day of Atonement:

Daily service:

In Lev 5:4-6 we see that the sinner must confess his sin as part of this act of seeking forgiveness.

Leviticus 4, begins with a sacrifice. When a sacrifice was offered for the sins of the entire congregation, the blood was taken by the priest, who represented Jesus (Hebrews 3:1), into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the veil which separated the Holy and the Most Holy place.

In Lev 10:16-18 we see that sin is transferred to the sanctuary in the daily as part of the sin offering -- from the people to the tent of meeting by the act of the Priests.

Lev 10
16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying,

17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”


Sins were transferred to the sanctuary from the sinner during the daily service...either by bringing the blood of the sin offering into the sanctuary or by the priest eating part of it and then going into the sanctuary.

As you said "Shadows are very weak representations of the reality they are a shadow of" - but in this case the shadow tells us that something related to the sin is being transferred to the sanctuary all during the year during the daily service. Then at the end of year "Day of Atonement" service not only do we have forgiveness for all sins during the entire year - but also atonement for the altar and the sanctuary.