What part does doctrine play in becomign a christian?

[dms1972]

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

 

[zippy2006]

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

I think the best answer to this is the ancient creeds--Apostles or Nicene.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head.

The Dominicans have a helpful notion that there is a circular motion between the intellect and the will, between knowledge of God and love of God, between head and heart. The more you know about God and the more you know God, the more you love him, and the more you love him, the more you desire to know him and to know about him. This leads to a kind of epektasis.

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

Nah, it's much older, even if it got worse with modernity. Even the desert fathers often made the distinction.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

I would say it takes time, often even beyond death.

 

[Messerve]

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I accented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if am deceiving myself.

I have known some christians who were said to be sound in their doctrine, but I found these sorts somewhat unapproachable, I felt I didn't want to say anything wrong.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head. I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to the heart" - how does that happen. Does one try to bring their experience into line with what the hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it seems cannot understand how anyone cannot see A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

I think it's a matter of the soul - something that science can't explain and philosophy doesn't touch. When you become a Christian it isn't because what you hear lines up with what was already in your head, necessarily (though perhaps for some people it is the final piece of the puzzle they had mostly completed). It's because in your soul it rings of truth. The soul involves the mind to a degree, but not exclusively. The soul also involves the body, but not exclusively. It is independent of mind and body and perceives in ways the mind and body cannot. There are plenty of stories of people lying braindead in the hospital with zero brain activity, yet they can recall things relatives said to them and the nurses coming and going. How? I personally believe the soul was still present with them and through the consciousness of the soul they were still able to know what was going on around them.

I think the Cartesian / Kantian Split likewise does not address the soul. It says there is a split between the mind and body, which I would disagree with. I think the mind is simply a very complex bodily process, but not at all separable from the body. The soul, on the other hand, is more of a consciousness that goes beyond the body and mind and operates within the spiritual world in ways we don't totally understand. If we could explain the soul we could also explain angels and miracles, but we really can't except to say that they are SUPERnatural and thus for the most part scientifically untouchable.

I don't think a person has to have perfect doctrine to be saved. In fact I think the vast majority of people have no solid doctrine yet, at all. They understand who Jesus is and the reason for His death and the weight of their own sin, and they know that what they've heard is true regardless of their own beliefs and desires.

As an example, I don't personally believe baptism is what saves you. I believe it is the repentance, acceptance of His work on the cross and thereby joining your soul to Jesus, becoming one with Him. And then, baptism is to show everyone that your old self is dead. It's important to make that decision personally, rather than being baptized as a baby and never actually dedicating yourself to Him. However, as I try to share my faith with a Catholic friend whom I suspect doesn't really know Jesus personally, i have often wondered if I could do that without ever addressing the difference in our doctrines. Could I "trick" him into being saved by saying something like "You should dedicate your life to Jesus. It's pretty cool. I did it once." And thereby if he does that he's unknowingly being saved? But I came to the conclusion that it doesn't work that way. Without repentance it will be yet another "false salvation"and he'll just end up even more confused.

So, no I don't think you need perfect doctrine to be saved. But I do think your understanding of the basic tenets of the Gospel have to be correct.

 

[timothyu]

None unless you are being indoctrinated into a certain sect of the religion. Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom and told us over and over to put the will of God ahead of the will of man. Paul is referenced three times to have spent years teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. The religion builders had other plans and built their own empire.

 

[dms1972]

I think it's a matter of the soul - something that science can't explain and philosophy doesn't touch. When you become a Christian it isn't because what you hear lines up with what was already in your head, necessarily (though perhaps for some people it is the final piece of the puzzle they had mostly completed). It's because in your soul it rings of truth. The soul involves the mind to a degree, but not exclusively. The soul also involves the body, but not exclusively. It is independent of mind and body and perceives in ways the mind and body cannot. There are plenty of stories of people lying braindead in the hospital with zero brain activity, yet they can recall things relatives said to them and the nurses coming and going. How? I personally believe the soul was still present with them and through the consciousness of the soul they were still able to know what was going on around them.

I think the Cartesian / Kantian Split likewise does not address the soul. It says there is a split between the mind and body, which I would disagree with. I think the mind is simply a very complex bodily process, but not at all separable from the body. The soul, on the other hand, is more of a consciousness that goes beyond the body and mind and operates within the spiritual world in ways we don't totally understand. If we could explain the soul we could also explain angels and miracles, but we really can't except to say that they are SUPERnatural and thus for the most part scientifically untouchable.

I used the terminology "Cartesian / Kantian split" as I have seen it refered to like that, I know in Descartes philosophy there is the dualism of mind and body, but I am not sure that the Kantian split refers to the same idea? I am not an expert on philosophy.

Leanne Payne describes the Kantian Split as

"God cannot be an object of knowledge; the noumena cannot be known in the phenomenon. This is abstract, philosophical way of denying Christ's incarnation...It denies that the divine Son was born of matter - of woman. And it denies that another - even Christ with the Father and the Spirit - lives in Christians."

 

[charsan]

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

The Nicene Creed.

 

[dms1972]

None unless you are being indoctrinated into a certain sect of the religion. Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom and told us over and over to put the will of God ahead of the will of man. Paul is referenced three times to have spent years teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. The religion builders had other plans and built their own empire.

And its as simple as that: put God's will ahead of our own will? I thought that was the big problem with mankind - they don't want to put God's will first, and need born again to see the Kingdom, need salvation, and to be changed so that they want God's will, over their own way?

How easy is it to put God's will ahead of our own?

Also do you not agree with Confessions of Faith?

 

[Amittai]

Faith does involve thinking so we should certainly live by thinking as you have been doing.

Intuiting is like an arrow with a string. When we trace it, and use inference, we can figure out much faith & belief landscape.

At CF you can come across some people who realise this. We've all got to give each other as much belief as we can.

Assent to degrees of inference is the vital principle in all fields.

Certainty = beyond even impossibility, beyond infinite.

Belief and hence faith = an approximation. Becoming ever more closer.

Keep a cool head. Cool heads are best. Stay sceptical of the "fashionably hearty"!

 

[Amittai]

... Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

...

Is there a way out of this?

Some of the churches have undergone a philosophical change - we need to be patient with them but it may be you don't have as much a problem within yourself as you fear.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

While I don't believe in a systematic approach to our common faith, I'd say that we can find the minimum a person needs to accept doctrinally by looking at the points at which Jesus and His Apostles said to various disciples, "Don't do this [sin], don't think this [heresy]...or else!" Those are the things to read, think about, and realize that we need to be careful to heed those points.

The rest of Christian doctrine which God in His Wisdom has obviously decided NOT to deliver to us in any kind of comprehensive way need not concern us more than in our just having an average understanding which just about any 10 year old could have ....

As for your feelings about your own shortcomings, I'd just say that on the one hand your feelings here are actually good because they can show that you're conscientious about your life as you stand before the Lord. On the other hand, you probably need to refocus upon the idea that the Christian life is a daily effort that we each have to make so as to remain in the Lord, and we all have to apply His discipline to our minds and hearts, praying and allowing Him to work in and through us in the hope of spiritual growth despite our current less than Christ-like stature.

 

[Amittai]

... Leanne Payne describes the Kantian Split as

"God cannot be an object of knowledge; the noumena cannot be known in the phenomenon. This is abstract, philosophical way of denying Christ's incarnation...It denies that the divine Son was born of matter - of woman. And it denies that another - even Christ with the Father and the Spirit - lives in Christians."

I'm not much into Kant yet but here goes. I think noumenon and phenomenon are the same thing seen differently. Noumenon is what is, and phenomenon is what we know about what is. Reifying, idealising and nominalism are faulty inference (and are nearer identical than is assumed).

Meaning is given, through what it is given through. Or what gives meaning, gives it. It is not imposed by us on what doesn't have any. (Probably in Peirce, Sebeok, Barthes, Shannon, Wheeler, Halliday from my skim reading.)

Arthur Young proposed projectivity which is a combination of subjectivity and objectivity: what is out there and what is in here (in our minds) are both a part of reality at the same time.

Gilson proposes methodical realism.

The anthropic principle is not circular: why shouldn't a part of reality be us: fact as starting point. To disallow fact is poor inference.

I take Payne as implying we should imply similar inference in our faith also (it's too long since I looked at Payne)?

 

[Amittai]

...

The rest of Christian doctrine which God in His Wisdom has obviously decided NOT to deliver to us in any kind of comprehensive way need not concern us more than in our just having an average understanding which just about any 10 year old could have ....

As for your feelings about your own shortcomings, I'd just say that on the one hand your feelings here are actually good because they can show that you're conscientious about your life as you stand before the Lord. On on the other hand, you probably need to refocus upon the idea that the Christian life is a daily effort that we each have to make so as to remain in the Lord, and we all have to apply His discipline to our minds and hearts, praying and allowing Him to work in and through us despite our less than Christ-like stature.

A very distant approximation to comprehensive is effected by extremely much Holy Spirit-helped inferring by a great many. Meantime, God often says what He's saying by not saying what He's not saying.

As for hypocrisy, DON'T do what some people I knew did: they were disappointed in themselves for not priding themselves in it enough!

 

[dms1972]

Faith does involve thinking so we should certainly live by thinking as you have been doing.

Intuiting is like an arrow with a string. When we trace it, and use inference, we can figure out much faith & belief landscape.

At CF you can come across some people who realise this. We've all got to give each other as much belief as we can.

Assent to degrees of inference is the vital principle in all fields.

Certainty = beyond even impossibility, beyond infinite.

Belief and hence faith = an approximation. Becoming ever more closer.

Keep a cool head. Cool heads are best. Stay sceptical of the "fashionably hearty"!

Thankyou for your reply. When I say "living by thinking" - I mean something like trying to apprehend reality in my thinking - if that makes any sense?

Not sure I understood what you said about Intuiting. But I come across that term a bit.

I came across a quote I noted, I don't know who it was from:

"Our mind is the organ or instrument with which we think about reality, not the organ through which we apprehend reality."

I think I am going about apprehending reality the wrong way.

I remember gradually my struggles with concepts like reality increasing often following watching films which mashed reality and fantasy - Who framed Roger Rabbit comes to mind. Thinking is fine when one is living by faith and ones will is surrendered to God, but not when one going one's own way and is relying on ones own thinking it seems to me.

My struggle always seems to be Trusting God and surrendering myself to Him. I am not sure I even believe in God anymore

I spent months talking to a christian counsellor and he tried to get me over this, telling me I just need to pray "Lord, I choose to turn my will over to you." and saying "Why not trust God?" - whiich honestly tends to make me feel panic.

I kept trying to explain its no use to just say the words.

Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings.

 

[dms1972]

Some of the churches have undergone a philosophical change - we need to be patient with them but it may be you don't have as much a problem within yourself as you fear.

I disagree I honestly think I am very lost - I can pretend and talk about theology, and must to an extent do that to get by.

 

[zippy2006]

I disagree I honestly think I am very lost - I can pretend and talk about theology, and must to an extent do that to get by.

It seems like this thread is more about how to change one's heart, no?

It's one of the most difficult questions of human existence, but for starters I would say prayer, silence, attentiveness, following God's commandments, learning from those who have traveled the path, and lectio divina. It seems to me that your "head knowledge" is sufficient for the time being.

 

[Rescued One]

Doctrine is VERY important, but loving JESUS is more important.

When you love Jesus more that self, you will be at peace.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

[Hazelelponi]

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

To become a Christian you have to truly understand salvation, however, it's not an understanding of the mind, it's a heart-deep soul deep understanding, in my own personal experince.

When I was first trying to understand Christianity or the Christian concepts, I had an absolute block in really understanding salvation. I got the God, I got the concepts, but I was still missing something and I knew in that place I couldn't actually be a Christian as it would be a falsehood.

So I was in a place between world's, so to speak, for a couple years and kind of just tried to stop even thinking about it.

All that changed for me one night when I was visited by the Angel of the Lord in a dream and in that dream salvation was explained to me, in a manner I could really understand .. I was then "saved" so to speak, in that dream, and I confirmed it again when I woke up, because I wasn't sure if accepting Christ as savior in a dream actually counted.

Not everyone has dreams like that and we all do come to this understanding of salvation and Christ differently... but it's an understanding that is soul deep that becomes life altering, and life changing.

The words are all the same in both true understanding and not really understanding, oddly enough, and people can tell you these words all day long and you never truly "get it", unless or until God steps in, in whatever way works for you, and suddenly all the lights in the house are on and it's just a part of you, inside of you with a belief that is soul deep. That makes Christ and salvation as real to you as the coffee table in your living room, and it becomes life itself for you because it's inside you in this inexplicable way.

The only verses in the Bible that really explains salvation is found in Acts 16 with Lydia.

"13....We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us." Acts of the Apostles 16:13-15

Without that move of God, salvation doesn't occur. What it looks like on the outside is different for everyone, but no response is true without it, and it's is absolutely 100% soul deep, far different from mere mental assent. Remember, even Satan believes in God and Christ...

So, if you feel your some where in mental assent land, then perhaps your need to pray, and have others pray also for you, that the Lord opens your heart as well... as that is the only description of conversion in the Bible. God's people speak the words, and God moves you to understanding them in a manner your able to respond.

Good sermon if you take the time for it:

 

[dms1972]

Thankyou Hazeleponti - I must have read a hundred different theologians on the subject (no exageration). Sometimes when I read someones explanation it seems more real to me - but still I don't know that I have got it, or if I have lost it?

It puzzles me because in the past I have invested a lot of time in praying and I thought I was praying in faith - and sometimes I think I have seen answers. As an example I would feel like I have got insights through praying sometimes, that then I want to those to be made known and I pray sometimes for people to incorporate those insights into books - I don't mean I convey the insight to them in a letter or some way but that I have prayed sometimes "God, if this is true, I pray this or that writer put into their book." And though its sometimes years later I read something and I have almost forgotten I even had prayed but think some of what I read is a product of those prayers. So what is going on there? Was I christian then? I honestly wonder if what I am doing is prayer in a christian sense, or something more new age - like creating reality?

When people discuss losing salvation, I think yes one can go back, and perhaps some people's initial conversion was incomplete.

Many years ago I felt like I had passed out of christianity, was in effect an ex-christian, except I didn't want to be clashing with people who believe, including family members. I had at times felt over the years i was practically more a atheist than anything, but didn't quite want to admit that to myself - and so I would go seeking God again to try and renew my faith for a bit.

If one leaves christianity but hasn't really given any thought to the truth of other worldviews - then suppose some people will likely pick up something else - Buddhism, or something. But for me I cannot commit to any other path - so I seem to be stuck in a sort of no man's land - I cannot tell what I believe. In the midst of that for a number of years I pushed myself to go to church against my inclinations. It may be the church I went to wasn't the best one, but I even got baptised as by full immersion there, yet inwardly could not really say I was believing. If I recall right there was a time a good few years back when trying to be honest with myself about whether I really believed I felt myself to be agnostic verging on atheism, and I went to a local church hoping I would experience something that would persuade me of the reality of God. But it seemed like no one at the service felt anything that week. I came out feeling I was slipping into while desperately trying to keep myself from doing so into outright atheism.

I don't know where I am at currently.

 

[dms1972]

I suppose one has to be persuaded first that there really is a Holy God, and that we are guilty before him, before any sort of conversion can take place - I thought i was persuaded of that at one point in my life. Even as child I felt I had to experience a strong sense of being under God's Wrath before I could be saved and sought to be more impressed with a sense of that.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Thankyou Hazeleponti - I must have read a hundred different theologians on the subject (no exageration). Sometimes when I read someones explanation it seems more real to me - but still I don't know that I have got it, or if I have lost it?

It puzzles me because in the past I have invested a lot of time in praying and I thought I was praying in faith - and sometimes I think I have seen answers. As an example I would feel like I have got insights through praying sometimes, that then I want to those to be made known and I pray sometimes for people to incorporate those insights into books - I don't mean I convey the insight to them in a letter or some way but that I have prayed sometimes "God, if this is true, I pray this or that writer put into their book." And though its sometimes years later I read something and I have almost forgotten I even had prayed but think some of what I read is a product of those prayers. So what is going on there? Was I christian then? I honestly wonder if what I am doing is prayer in a christian sense, or something more new age - like creating reality?

When people discuss losing salvation, I think yes one can go back, and perhaps some people's initial conversion was incomplete.

Many years ago I felt like I had passed out of christianity, was in effect an ex-christian, except I didn't want to be clashing with people who believe, including family members. I had at times felt over the years i was practically more a atheist than anything, but didn't quite want to admit that to myself - and so I would go seeking God again to try and renew my faith for a bit.

If one leaves christianity but hasn't really given any thought to the truth of other worldviews - then suppose some people will likely pick up something else - Buddhism, or something. But for me I cannot commit to any other path - so I seem to be stuck in a sort of no man's land - I cannot tell what I believe. In the midst of that for a number of years I pushed myself to go to church against my inclinations. It may be the church I went to wasn't the best one, but I even got baptised as by full immersion there, yet inwardly could not really say I was believing. If I recall right there was a time a good few years back when trying to be honest with myself about whether I really believed I felt myself to be agnostic verging on atheism, and I went to a local church hoping I would experience something that would persuade me of the reality of God. But it seemed like no one at the service felt anything that week. I came out feeling I was slipping into while desperately trying to keep myself from doing so into outright atheism.

I don't know where I am at currently.

I can't say much because I don't know your heart, although I fear you don't either, but I do get the sense from your posting that your immersed in a desire to chase a feeling, an experince rather than a deep desire to know God.

Experiences are subjective, and feelings change with the weather.

I HAD a major experience, but I also came out of Islam into Christianity (THAT turns EVERYTHING on its head! Ha!). There wasn't an aspect of my life that salvation didn't impact, many times in major ways. So I don't believe you can compare my experiences to your own, one who has always been surrounded in Christianity, Scripture and to some degree His people.

You can only compare your heart to scripture .. if you find yourself lacking repent! Turn to God, just for the sake of knowing Him in truth!

THAT was my only desire, to know God and who He was and His truth... that was it. I wanted nothing else. I had no expectations for feelings or experiences... I just desired to know the Truth! So I could worship God in truth!

And if you seek Him with all your heart and all you are, you WILL find Him. Not an image of Him, but the Truth of Him - seek only that. When you find it, you'll have your own experiences based on you and God, not someone else.

Jeremiah 9:23-24

This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches, but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.