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What part does doctrine play in becomign a christian?

dms1972

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Isn't that a doctrine?

I am aware there is a dispute going in the thread about doctrine. And I am aware that there are a lot of doctrines and that some christians hold some of those, and others don't and that some can be a point of controversy.

But please note Timothyu, Paul says to Timothy "watch your life and you doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

What does he mean here?

What I suppose i am asking in my OP is doctrine merely something mental?
 
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BobRyan

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What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Doctrine is like the manual for driving the car.
Driving the car according to the manual : is like being born again and walking in Christ according to scripture.

You can read the manual without ever driving the car.
you can drive the car without reading the manual - and take your bruises - at high risk not knowing the rules of the road.

Reading the Bible but never being born-again is almost saved... and almost saved is all--the-way-lost.
 
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dms1972

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Doctrine is like the manual for driving the car.
Driving the car according to the manual : is like being born again and walking in Christ according to scripture.

You can read the manual without ever driving the car.
you can drive the car without reading the manual - and take your bruises - at high risk not knowing the rules of the road.

Reading the Bible but never being born-again is almost saved... and almost saved is all--the-way-lost.


Ok I take your analogy of the car manual, but if you just mean how to operate the car (how to put it into gear etc.) I don't think it goes far enough I think the Highway Code might be a better analogy.


You say that its no use just reading the Bible without having being born again, but how does the new birth occur? This is the bit I would really like to understand?
 
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timothyu

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but how does the new birth occur? This is the bit I would really like to understand?
People are often so fed up with the way the world is run and the nastiness within it they are often delighted to find in scripture that there is an alternate way of life and governance out there. Worked for the slaves, servants and women who flocked to Jesus' teachings because it was anti-oppressive.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I am aware there is a dispute going in the thread about doctrine. And I am aware that there are a lot of doctrines and that some christians hold some of those, and others don't and that some can be a point of controversy.

But please note Timothyu, Paul says to Timothy "watch your life and you doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

What does he mean here?

What I suppose i am asking in my OP is doctrine merely something mental?

Doctrine is after salvation to a certain extent. There is much that cannot be grasped before they are saved.

You need the foundation prior to salvation, not an entire doctrine. You need to know the full nature of God, you need to understand why Christ died on the cross and what it meant to salvation and judgement and even why we can accept scripture as inspired, inerrant, and sufficient...

But when we get into doctrines, we get into systematic theologies, exegetical analysis and exposition.. without the leading of the Holy Spirit, that's a well filled with many potentially errant paths that can lead a potential Christian out of/away from true faith forever....

You want the foundation to be of sound teaching, but you really can't get into doctrinal differences until your actually saved.

When asked what is required for salvation only the bare minimum is ever spoken of Biblically. Belief that is in Christ and His work and a verbal confession of His Lordship over you. That's it.
 
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Religiot

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What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?
Whoah, too much! There's only on doctrine people need to know, that doctrine is simply the Doctrine of Christ, which is simply all that He said, which means to you, the believer, all that He said that you can understand; otherwise, you're gonna have to take someone else's word for it, and you know what that means: 'if it ain't the Lord's word you're taking, then it's probably gonna end up wrong in the end.

Godspeed.
 
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dms1972

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There's only on doctrine people need to know, that doctrine is simply the Doctrine of Christ, which is simply all that He said, which means to you, the believer, all that He said that you can understand;

So are saying the doctrine Jesus himself taught as presented in the Bible, rather than any doctrine about him like a Christology, or Soteriology?

I suppose what I am asking really is what does an unbeliever need to accept?
 
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Religiot

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So are saying the doctrine Jesus himself taught as presented in the Bible, rather than any doctrine about him like a Christology, or Soteriology?

I suppose what I am asking really is what does an unbeliever need to accept?
Brother, an unbeliever needs to accept Christ, period.

Accepting Christ means accepting Him, Who He is, which requires obeying what He says, for He is the Master of the universe, and Creator of the same; so when He says to keep His commandments, we must, etc.

The gospel is the good news that the Creator of the universe has revealed Himself to the world, for the express purpose of reconciling the world to Himself, by saving those of us whom He foreknew before the world was.

This redemption is the salvation, from the coming destruction, which is the restoration, of what was once good.

Men no longer have to die, but through Christ, they can live forever, like God, and be with Him, Who is love, forevermore, where peace reigns, in a new world, without end.
 
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dms1972

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Brother, an unbeliever needs to accept Christ, period.

Accepting Christ means accepting Him, Who He is, which requires obeying what He says, for He is the Master of the universe, and Creator of the same; so when He says to keep His commandments, we must, etc.

The gospel is the good news that the Creator of the universe has revealed Himself to the world, for the express purpose of reconciling the world to Himself, by saving those of us whom He foreknew before the world was.

This redemption is the salvation, from the coming destruction, which is the restoration, of what was once good.

Men no longer have to die, but through Christ, they can live forever, like God, and be with Him, Who is love, forevermore, where peace reigns, in a new world, without end.


But what if someone doesn't believe in God, or in Absolute truth?
 
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Religiot

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But what if someone doesn't believe in God, or in Absolute truth?
Well, brother, that's actually an easy one, for the Holy Spirit tells us plainly about those who say there is no God, and those who do not love the truth:

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." --Psalms 14:1

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." --2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

Remember, the gospel is simple, the lies are not: so the next time you hear someone lying about God and the absolute truth, just be at peace, for now you know who they are, and how God feels about them.

Stay at peace, brother, for once you've defended the faith, your hands are clean, and the rest is up to the Holy Spirit.

Godspeed.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

As has been mentioned before, what is written in the historic creeds is foundational, with the Nicene Creed as the foundational statement of faith of Christianity.

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

Seeking after tangible merits in our own life as a metric of our relationship to God and our salvation is a dangerous idea. Each and every one of us is a sinner, and so the daily struggle against sin, the flesh, and the old man will remain for the entirety of this mortal life. That is what St. Paul describes in Romans ch. 7. In Lutheranism we speak of the paradox of simul iustus et peccator, Latin for "at once both saint and sinner"; that through faith we have received righteousness from God as a gift, and are thus justified fully and freely by the grace of God in Christ; but we remain still in this "body of death" as the Apostle calls it, and thus are still sinners. Thus we are righteous by grace, sinners by nature, looking not to our own abilities, efforts, strengths (etc), but instead to the promise and mercy of God.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

At a very basic level I think it's simply psychological--what we believe shapes us. If I believe that my neighbor is made in the image of God, and that Christ died for them, and God loves them then how I view my neighbor will be significantly different than if I believe my neighbor doesn't matter, and all that really matters is my own selfish wants.

If we believe that God became man, that Jesus is indeed the very Word of God made flesh, who comes in humility, weakness, and the foolishness of the cross as St. Paul says, then we believe that God has chosen to identify with the weak, the foolish, the lowly. And thus our craving for power, success, glory, etc is wrong, and indeed, in opposition to the cross.

Theology shapes our perception of God, ourselves, and the world around us. Good theology rightly reflects the truth of the Gospel, and the mission of the Church, and thus our place in creation, in society, and in relation to all God's creatures. Bad theology disrupts, distorts, and perverts those things.

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

We're all hypocrites. Because our behavior does not conform to our faith; that is part of the paradox of being both a sinner and a saint. But the key is to recognize our hypocrisy, confess our sins freely, repent, and even as we trust the grace of God, we keep pushing forward. We will fail, falter, fall--but God has provided us with the upward calling that is in Christ, that our faith might be nourished and sustained, as God continues His work upon us. God is faithful even when we are faithless. So even as we struggle and fumble, God is unrelenting in His kindness toward us. Don't give up, endure, keep fighting, keep running--don't let the stumbling and the fumbling and the faltering turn you away from Christ, but always have your gaze upon Jesus and trusting upon His sure and certain word.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

Nobody enters the Church with all their i's properly dotted and t's properly crossed. We come to the font of baptism as broken, shattered, helpless beggars. The Church is not the country club of saints, but the hospital for sinners. But as we hear God's word, as we are sustained and nourished by the Sacraments, as we are fed and sustained and maintained by the works and promises of God through the Holy Spirit, we are, indeed, God's workmanship. We are clay upon the potter's wheel, being shaped, and God is the potter--it is enough that we trust the Potter, the final product not being seen or known until the Last Day.

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

Doctrine matters, it is the essence of our bold confession of Christ in the midst of the world--but it seems that much of this struggle of yours is built upon the proposition that your individual salvation depends upon your ability to grasp or understand the propositional truths of faith. But salvation does not depend on you being able to pass a theology exam, salvation depends upon the God who so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son. So even if you are struggling with matters of theology, and points of doctrine--you can still trust completely and utterly upon Jesus Christ who saves you. He saves you. Christ died for you.

Jesus has your back. You can trust Him.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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