What part does doctrine play in becomign a christian?

dms1972 said:

I think that is the problem that I don't know my own heart, I feel out of touch.

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Heaven, salvation, Christ's sacrifice on the cross, God's people and more. It's all about the Glory, all for the Glory of God.

If you don't know God, you won't have a grasp on anything pertaining to Christianity, nor will you have any recognition of His people or His truth.

I've these last few days been in a basic crisis, not of faith, but one of fighting the fight so to speak for life as I have little left in me physically and thereby also emotionally to live for. I've been wanting to go Home, to be with God... because I've felt empty of the ability to fight further.

So I've also felt empty, however differently, just as you.

But God healed me today, not physically but emotionally... absolutely healed me because I hung on and wouldn't let go of what I know to be right, that the emptiness was wrong and not of God.

While my emptiness had a far different cause than your emptiness, it's still the same because whenever we feel empty it's a warning sign that something is terribly broken and when something is terribly broken only God can fix it, only God can fix us.

For you, as for myself, go then to God for the answer. It's the only place to find any answer. When we are empty we need filled with something that is not of this world; it's with Him, with His answers, with His truth.

Being saved is not a mental assent, it's a spiritual working that is of God. But in order to begin to find the spiritual you do have to begin with the mental. You have to go to His Word, the inspired, inerrant and sufficient Word of God that is the Bible to learn of His nature because that's where it's found.

Who is God? What is God? Start with His attributes... learn of His love, His justice, His mercy, His wrath, His sovereignty... Read Scripture. Pray to Him. Ask Him for understanding, ever greater and greater understanding of His nature from His Word. Beg Him. Tell Him how empty you are and that you need rivers of Living Water to quench your thirst and fill you...

Your daily bread that you eat of should be manna from Heaven... His Word. Scripture. Learn of Him.

Before I was saved I spent years arguing out, learning, growing in the knowledge of Him...

You need to do the same. I can't give to you the desire, the drive, the will... But if anything of desire, drive and will is in you to know God then find that kernel... and hold onto it and don't let it go.. hang on like your life depends on it because it does! It does more than you now realize...

Hold onto that kernel and feed only it and watch it grow into a beautiful thing... feed it the Word of God, feed it the Knowledge you need..

You can cut away the dross... no self help books nothing but His Word. Avoid worldly preachers and teachers, but I can make some suggestions of a couple good ones if you like... just begin. You can't move forward without moving, so begin with God, He is the beginning and the end. Start always with the beginning, He is God.

dms1972 said:

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?...

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Originally Christians meant a disciple of Jesus. To become a disciple of Jesus, one is baptized as the Bible tells.

...in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11:26

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

And person who is truly a disciple of Jesus, remains in the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And that is little different matter than being born anew. Born anew means person is born of God. And when person is born of God, he is righteous. That can happen by the words Jesus declared. The words can cause change in persons mind so that he becomes righteous, gets the wisdom of the just, which is like right understanding that leads to right actions.

Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

ut as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

It is good to read the book of Acts in the New Testament. If you read it through, preferably all of it, you will get a sense of the experience of the first Christians and their anticipation and excitement. The Holy Spirit was given to them and this seems to be the missing person in your search who will instruct you and direct you and also give you that relationship with the Lord Jesus.
Acts is written by Luke, so the Gospel of Luke would be a good place to start, at the very least read the last chapter as this will lead you into Acts. Chapter 1:8 is the key verse.
God bless you as you seek more of him in your life.

dms1972 said:

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

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Doctrine should be very important. And indeed, it once was. But since there are so many Christian bodies/groups these days, none of whom agree upon any single point of doctrine, a lot of Christians take the easy way out and claim doctrine doesn't matter.

thecolorsblend said:

none of whom agree upon any single point of doctrine, a lot of Christians take the easy way out and claim doctrine doesn't matter.

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Scripture mattered to Jesus. He might be a good example to follow.

timothyu said:

Scripture mattered to Jesus. He might be a good example to follow.

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This isn't about Sacred Scripture; it's about doctrine. Thx

thecolorsblend said:

This isn't about Sacred Scripture; it's about doctrine. Thx

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Doctrine is about religion, not Jesus.

timothyu said:

Doctrine is about religion, not Jesus.

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Oh, one of those, got it.

dms1972 said:

Thankyou for taking time to respond even in the midst of your difficulties.

I struggle even with belief in God. Its like this - I held to some sort of God idea in my head for a good part of my earlier life. I was brought up by christian parents and my dad was a missionary, but I struggled a lot with my udnerstanding of things - but anyway I don't think I really believed in God, I just held a God idea in my mind I suppose - lived in my head. Then eventually I began to feel everything was meaningless, even absurd- following some existentialist ideas - I embraced that, then I started to think what then am I supposed to keep trying to believe in God even though everything is meaningless and absurd, is that what faith is.

But I would never have got to the point of thinking the world to be absurd, if I had really believed in God. Absurdism follows from atheism, not from theism. So accepting absurdism and yet trying to believe in God in the face of the absurd - seems the wrong way round. Believe in God then the world won't seem meaningless and absurd, and one won't have to then try to believe in God in the face of the absurd.

Does that make any sense? I know I am a hypocrite for writing it but I know it in my head as it were.


I began with thinking about calvinism a bit when I was child but I rejected that, then I think I shifted in to rationalism, then later into existentialism, then to trying to believe in God again. But really its unbelief I suppose at the root of my difficulties.

How do I get out of unbelief?

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In Mark 9:22-24 a man had come to Jesus asking healing for his son:

"But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."

He said. Jesus responded:

"If you can?", said Jesus. "Everything is possible for one who believes"

The man exclaimed "I do believe! Now help me overcome my unbelief."

Then Jesus healed the child.

Pray can be worship, and it can be request. Make that your request to God... "Now help me with my unbelief"

Jesus is a historical figure that really existed. We have proofs of these facts not only from the Bible, but also from both Jewish and Roman writings as well, as well as extra Biblical proofs that those who called themselves followers of Him were willing to die upon the faith we follow to this day.

He was a real man who walked upon this earth, and His followers very real people who wrote of their accounts. You can read accounts to this day of life-changing and life altering experiences after encountering faith in Christ Jesus. I am here as witness, people are still willing to leave family and reputation and even life upon this foundation .. there is real impact that changes everything for those who believe even 2000 years later.

It's a good foundation to start upon for you, so start there with your "I believe" part... this many people aren't just all deluded. No mass delusions on this one. This Christ is very real and His impact spans millennia.

Go to God with this truth, and beg of Him to help your unbelief, as Scripture shows us to if we have the need, which you admittedly do.

It's probably a dangerous thing to be immersed in church and scripture as a child, as you hear the words so often they lose impact, lose meaning... I used to be able to audibly recite entire surah (chapters) of the qur'an while making shopping or to-do lists in my head, entirely without thought so often did I recite them.

The thing about Islam is thats expected, your outwardly always perfect, inward who cares, right? It's a job you do, a requirement for a heaven based on good deeds outweighing bad deeds... and deeds are always action... your a hired worker for an appearance of righteousness.

But while Christianity is also outward, if the inward isn't equal or greater there's no religion at all, no salvation there. There's freedom in the love of Christ not found in slavery. But its a heart thing, as the Apostle Paul said and I'm sure you've heard "we are those of circumcised hearts". Without the heart change, there's nothing because religion doesn't exist in its absence.

And that is the work of God in the man. We read in Jeremiah 31:31

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah"

The words on the cover of the Bible "New Testament" is a Greek to Latin to English translation of the very same words here translated "New Covenant".

The entirety of the New Testament is the story of the New Covenant realized through Christ Jesus alone, wherein God's people are, as Jeremiah states:

"It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

THAT is the true meaning of being "saved", God's law will be in our minds, placed there by God Himself, and He will write it on their hearts... and therein is the meaning of "circumcised hearts."

Spurgeon said something in a sermon once to explain salvation. He said imagine if you will I take a beautiful plate of the choicest foods and set it on the ground. Next place a bucket of trashy food, garbage to throw away, and set it down and set a hog loose. The hog every single time will go straight to the trash bucket and happily slop up what would make a man gag with great joy. Why? Because he's a pig and that's what pigs do.

Now imagine if you will, that God places His Hand upon the hog and gives him a new heart and turn him into a man, and he will vomit out of his mouth what he'd been eating, and shamefully lift up his head from the bucket.

Now know this, I have just described to you conversion...

Good illustration and quite accurate at that. The work of God in regeneration is a mighty work, more powerful than creation itself because creation came out of nothing, but in regeneration your taking a wicked lump of flesh and changing it altogether into a man, with a new heart and a new Spirit within, a new love and a new life. It changes you.

When I was saved in the span of a heartbeat I was changed, life altering life changing glorious change - and no one warned me of that! It dropped me to my face in humility before the Living God, and I worshipped Him in spirit and in truth for the very first time, and I never wanted to leave that place. I. Found. God. or rather, He found me, gathered me up as a precious child and through His love that gave His only begotten Son my just punishment, wrath I deserved, I found salvation - and reconciliation with the God of the heavens and the earth.

Beg Him, beg him, I believe, now help me with my unbelief.

Read Scripture, pray and pray often. Do notice however, that Jesus answered the unbelief of the man I spoke of in Mark earlier with healing, and thus unbelief became belief... in this both requests were answered in full, both the request for healing, and the request for greater belief. The healing was causal to the belief. A good simultude for your very real need.

dms1972 said:

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

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One must believe that God Is and is a rewarder to those who seek him as I recall. That is everything one has to do. Seek The Truth and I believe one will find it. In my case, I was called. Trying to explain that is difficult to understand without going through it. Christ changes you from within.

dms1972 said:

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

Click to expand...

dms1972 said:

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

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The only way out is through the Holy Spirit which will actually put you "in". Have you received the Holy Spirit?
Be blessed and stay healthy!

dms1972 said:

Thankyou again for taking the time to reply.

But I don't think I can say that I think I am in complete unbelief - there used to be a time maybe when I was a mixture of belief and unbelief - but I think my state now is more one of complete unbelief.

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I can only give you what I have, the rest is between you and God.

I pray the best for you, and I DO pray you someday find the way home.

thecolorsblend said:

Oh, one of those, got it.

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Yes indeed, the narrow path.

dms1972 said:

What does a person need to accept doctrinally in the process of becoming a christian?

For years I assented to certain doctrines such justification by faith, but I found I wasn't a changed a person - even though I thought I believed the doctrines. What was wrong - I still struggle with this and wonder if I am born again or a christian at all, or if I am deceiving myself.

How does doctrine function in becoming a christian?

This is probably a daft question but does it move from the head to the heart , or the heart to head? I have heard people in churches talk about the need for people to "get it down to their heart" - how does that happen? Does one try to bring their experience into line with what they hold in their head doctrinally, or does one have an experience of God and that gives rise to what one holds to doctrinally?

Others I have read say head and heart are terms used to reflect the modern split in man, what some refer to as the Cartesian / Kantian split.

So does one need to be healed of this split to become a christian, because I just feel that no matter how much theology I know, its just sitting at the top of my head - in fact I think I am a hypocrite to be honest. Even when I have thought I had got it down to my heart I am not sure I have. So in many ways I feel I have ended up in something like hypocrisy - as my heart doesn't seem to be changed.

Francis Schaeffer says its very important that a person has the right concept of truth before becoming a christian

But what does it mean to believe something to be true? Take any proposition, what does it mean to believe that proposition to be true? I have heard family members saying about the Bible "we have to believe this is true" You have to hold to a particular concept of truth - that I am not sure I hold anymore. I wish I knew were the rot began with me. I just don't hold what I used to hold - and I went through some shifts in my thinking philosophically over the years. I wasn't living by faith, I was living by thinking during this time, and it has seemed impossible to get back. Something happens when you pass out of the modern conception of truth and reality - I became terribly confused - lost touch with reality. I am not sure what my conception is now, just living in my own truth I suppose. Over the last 25 years going to back to church nothing seems to have helped.

I have tried to talk to counsellors about it, but it some cannot understand how anyone cannot see that A is A.

Whatever my view is I have been told it isn't really postmodernism - but I cannot now recall my process through the philosophies as its years ago.

Is there a way out of this?

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The gospel for one. That is a bare requirement for salvation and should be accepted by every Christian. I personally would say the Trinity as well. I was a late bloomer in my belief of the Trinity but Hod did eventually show me the truth of the Trinity. I personally would also say that the basics of how we are saved would be a requirement as well. Mainly that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Otherwise... every other doctrine and belief is just filler and not really required for salvation.

Christianity is based on truth, as revealed by God to His Church. Those truths collectively are known as doctrine. You cannot be a true Christian without following true Christian teaching of true Christian doctrine.

Neostarwcc said:

Mainly that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works.

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Isn't that a doctrine?