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LDS What other words does the BOM use in the BC era which are out of place?

dzheremi

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The Elephantine Papyri show familiarity with Hieratic, Demotic, and Coptic Egyptian (note: not Hieroglyphic Ancient Egyptian, which is what He is the Way displayed in post #130), as well as Aramaic, Greek, and Latin. They are mostly in Aramaic, which is what the Jews would've spoken at that time (since they start in 5th century BC, and Hebrew was displaced by Aramaic in the 6th century BC within the Neo-Babylonian Empire, which included Israel). It is not clear exactly what the relation was between the Jews and the Egyptians, only that they lived together. A large number of documents in the collection show the goings on of a Jewish family in which the Egyptian wife was previously the slave (and hence legally the daughter) of a Jewish man named Meshullam.

You can read more about the Elphantine Papyri at wikipedia here.
 
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He is the way

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The Jews in Egypt were slave laborers, not university students. Moses' adoption into Pharaoh's household placed him in a unique position. So why do you believe many Jews could. Any documentation or just a hunch?
Although Lehi was not a slave, he was a wealthy man. There is no mention of his progenitors although he spent his entire life in Jerusalem. I believe that many of the Jews had dealings with the Egyptians both written and oral language wise.
When Egyptian Pharaohs Ruled Bronze Age Jerusalem - Biblical Archaeology Society
 
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drstevej

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Lehi leaves no historical footprints out of Mormonism.

Now Nehi is another story. In fact my grandfather was the chief chemist for Nehi and developed many of the formulas. And I have the evidence on my shelf (His notebook with the formulas). That is history. Lehi is the product of looking at rocks in a hat.
 
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dzheremi

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The Biblical Archaeology Society is not an academic association.

Also, it was during the Bronze Age that the cultures of Egypt and Mesopotamia began using the earliest forms of their particular writing systems (Hieroglyphs and Cuneiform, respectively), but the problem for the Mormon narrative is that the available Egyptian papyri that we have don't show any familiarity with Hieroglyphic Egyptian (which you claimed they had written in in post #130), only with Hieratic, Demotic, and Coptic. To call these "reformed Egyptian" runs into the problem I've pointed out over and over in this discussion whenever we've had it: in that case (if they are 'reforms' of preexisting writing systems used for different stages of the same language), they are actual forms of the Egyptian language, and it is clear from all available Mormon sources (e.g., Joseph et al. "Egyptian grammar") that what is presented by Mormons as Egyptian (language) isn't, and the only genuinely Egyptian thing that Joseph apparently ever had access to (the "Book of Abraham" papyri, which was really a funerary text) he bungled his 'translation' of to the point that it does not qualify as that in any sense, but is instead a made up story.

I'm still waiting for your comparison of the Egyptian and Hebrew languages, by the way.
 
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He is the way

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The Biblical Archaeology Society is not an academic association.

Also, it was during the Bronze Age that the cultures of Egypt and Mesopotamia began using the earliest forms of their particular writing systems (Hieroglyphs and Cuneiform, respectively), but the problem for the Mormon narrative is that the available Egyptian papyri that we have don't show any familiarity with Hieroglyphic Egyptian (which you claimed they had written in in post #130), only with Hieratic, Demotic, and Coptic. To call these "reformed Egyptian" runs into the problem I've pointed out over and over in this discussion whenever we've had it: in that case (if they are 'reforms' of preexisting writing systems used for different stages of the same language), they are actual forms of the Egyptian language, and it is clear from all available Mormon sources (e.g., Joseph et al. "Egyptian grammar") that what is presented by Mormons as Egyptian (language) isn't, and the only genuinely Egyptian thing that Joseph apparently ever had access to (the "Book of Abraham" papyri, which was really a funerary text) he bungled his 'translation' of to the point that it does not qualify as that in any sense, but is instead a made up story.

I'm still waiting for your comparison of the Egyptian and Hebrew languages, by the way.
http://www.language-museum.com/encyclopedia/h/hebrew-ancient.gif
https://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/750/6045.jpg?v=1485682678
 
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He is the way

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???

How is that a comparison?

Please don't abuse the website's alert system with nonsense. Either actually compare the two, or don't pretend as though you have evidence that you do not have.
That is what I used, ancient Hebrew and ancient Egyption.
 
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dzheremi

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I'm not sure if we're just not communicating properly, or if we're dealing with someone who does not know what an actual comparison of languages looks like, but either way it's kind of bugging me (sorry). Perhaps I should do one here, so that we all know what is being expected when a person says "I think language X is comparable to language Y in this way".

I can't do a comparison between Ancient Egyptian and Hebrew, since I can't read either, but I can do Coptic and Arabic, which might be just as illuminating (seeing as how Coptic is a form of Egyptian, and Arabic -- like Hebrew -- is a Semitic language). For He Is The Way's and others' benefit, this is what a very simple comparison between the two might look like.

Coptic (from Reintges, C. "Code-mixing Strategies in Coptic Egyptian", p. 195, LingAeg 9 [2001], 193-237):

nhenrefrouoein
n-hen-ref-r-woein
DO.marker-indef
C:\Users\Jeremy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png
plural-nompfx-make(CS)-light
'light-bringers'

This word was excised from a longer sentence "God, the creator, has provided us with the 'light-bringers' for the eyes of both our soul and our body." The direct object (DO) marker attaches to what was provided (the light-bringers); the indefinite article (plural form, since it's "bringers") is an indefinite article (Coptic loooooves articles); the nominalizing prefix takes a verb ('make') and turns it into a noun ('maker', or in the case of this translation, 'bringer'); 'make' is in the construct state (CS), which means that it is the first element of a genitive phrase (an 'of' phrase, e.g., 'makers/bringers of light'); and finally, the noun 'light' is present at the very end of the string.

Coptic Egyptian is a very synthetic, left-branching language, meaning that the element of a phrase that determines what type of phrase it is (in this case, a noun phrase, as 'light-bringers' is a plural noun) occurs in the phrase-final position, on the far right, with everything else 'branching' from it to the left: the object marker(s), the article(s), etc. Synthetic just means that it has a high morpheme-per-word, morphemes being the smallest pieces of language that carry grammatical meaning, like "dogs" has the noun "dog" + the plural morpheme -s. You can see from the example that the Coptic word has many morphemes. The opposite tendency in language, where a language has a low morpheme-to-word ratio, is called analytic (analytic languages), and as you can imagine, this aspect of language occurs on a kind of scale, with some languages being more analytic or more synthetic (they’re not absolute terms).

Arabic:

جالب الضوء
galeb el-daw'
collector def.-light
'light bringer'

Here is roughly the equivalent noun in Arabic. It is actually a noun phrase in the genitive construction (again, an 'of' phrase, i.e., 'bringer of light'), which is expressed syntactically in Arabic, with the first element being non-defined (not carrying the definite article el-) and placed directly next to a defined element: malik el-salam 'king of peace', kitab el-muqaddis 'book of holiness' ( = Holy Bible), etc. X def.-X = X of X.

I suppose if our friend He Is the Way meant that Egyptian is "more condensed" by virtue of having more morphemes per word (more synthetic/less analytic) than Hebrew, then that would be correct, but I doubt that this is what he meant or could have meant for a few reasons:

(1) At least some of those Coptic morphemes (e.g., the direct object marker) are there to keep track of the word's role within the larger sentence from which it was excised, so they're not (strictly speaking) necessary for the word to be properly formed, only to be properly placed within that particular sentence. It's something akin to saying that English is "more condensed" by virtue of "her" expressing not only gender (feminine), but also person (3rd person), and subject/object role (object). That's a lot of things to express via one simple pronoun, right? Right...except that these are simply properties of the pronoun itself. They don’t make English more synthetic (have more morphemes), as there is no way to further break down the word ‘her’ in a manner similar to what has already been done with the Coptic word. So it comes down to a question of what is meant by “condensed”: Is a word that has a lot of morphemes in it ‘more condensed’ by virtue of expressing a lot of information in one word, when other types of languages (more analytic languages/languages with fewer morphemes per word) can also express a lot of information per word without needing to add a bunch of prefixes, suffixes, or other markers to it? Looked at from that perspective, the word with all the “other stuff” attached to its root noun, as in Coptic, doesn’t really look more condensed, does it? It looks much larger/less condensed/more bloated. So it's a matter of how you analyze it.

(2) What I have shown above is true about the Coptic stage of Egyptian in particular, meaning that it is an accurate representation of how Coptic in particular forms words. The thing is that from what little I know about other stages of Egyptian, this is not true at all stages. To quote Brown & Ogilvie (Eds.) Concise Encyclopedia of Languages of the World (Elsevier 2009), “A similar complete cycle can be seen in Egyptian, where Old Egyptian was synthetic, Middle and Late Egyptian analytic, and Coptic, its descendant, again synthetic (Hintze, 1947; Hodge, 1970).” (292) If we keep this in mind when evaluating Mormon claims regarding who was writing what when, then we see that it could have only worked if the Jews in question were writing Old Egyptian (the ancient form of the language written in hieroglyphs). This certainly matches up with what our friend He Is the Way has been posting, but it very much doesn’t match up with the actual historical record of Egyptian language use among the Jews of that country, as I’ve already shown in bringing attention to the Elephantine papyri. The Elephantine papyri actually stretch back long enough to coincide with the Mormon timeline to some degree (the earliest of them date to the 5th century BC, whereas “Reformed Egyptian” is hypothesized to have existed possibly as early in the 4th century BC), and yet at no point in this collection, to the extent that Egyptian is used at all (again, the papyri are mostly written in Aramaic, not Egyptian) do we see the use of Ancient Egyptian. It’s simply not there. And this is the most complete collection we have of Jewish-related writings from the time period. Obviously by the time we get to the Coptic period (which can be very generously dated to the 2nd century AD, as this is when the earliest bilingual Coptic-Greek gospel fragments begin appearing, though some argue for an earlier or later date), it is far too late to be talking about that (read: Coptic is very clearly written in Greek characters, which cannot be confused for hieroglyphs, and furthermore represents a later stage of the Egyptian language than was written in the other writing systems), and yet that is the next stage of Egyptian which would have been synthetic, i.e. “more condensed” by what I am assuming – according to the most charitable understanding I can muster – would be He Is the Way’s way of putting it.

All of this is a very, very long way of saying that it just doesn’t work at all. There is no evidence in any kind of Egyptian for anything that the Mormons claim about their book or its provenance.
 
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dzheremi

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I've tried to fix it a few times now, but it seems that this website doesn't like linguistic analysis, since it's inserting a few little pictures into it that I don't want there. So the line under the Coptic morpheme breakdown should read (with all abbreviations removed, in case that's what's making the little pictures happen):

Direct Object marker-IndefinitePlural-NominalizingPrefix-make(CS)-light
 
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He is the way

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I'm not sure if we're just not communicating properly, or if we're dealing with someone who does not know what an actual comparison of languages looks like, but either way it's kind of bugging me (sorry). Perhaps I should do one here, so that we all know what is being expected when a person says "I think language X is comparable to language Y in this way".

I can't do a comparison between Ancient Egyptian and Hebrew, since I can't read either, but I can do Coptic and Arabic, which might be just as illuminating (seeing as how Coptic is a form of Egyptian, and Arabic -- like Hebrew -- is a Semitic language). For He Is The Way's and others' benefit, this is what a very simple comparison between the two might look like.

Coptic (from Reintges, C. "Code-mixing Strategies in Coptic Egyptian", p. 195, LingAeg 9 [2001], 193-237):

nhenrefrouoein
n-hen-ref-r-woein
DO.marker-indef
C:\Users\Jeremy\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png
plural-nompfx-make(CS)-light
'light-bringers'

This word was excised from a longer sentence "God, the creator, has provided us with the 'light-bringers' for the eyes of both our soul and our body." The direct object (DO) marker attaches to what was provided (the light-bringers); the indefinite article (plural form, since it's "bringers") is an indefinite article (Coptic loooooves articles); the nominalizing prefix takes a verb ('make') and turns it into a noun ('maker', or in the case of this translation, 'bringer'); 'make' is in the construct state (CS), which means that it is the first element of a genitive phrase (an 'of' phrase, e.g., 'makers/bringers of light'); and finally, the noun 'light' is present at the very end of the string.

Coptic Egyptian is a very synthetic, left-branching language, meaning that the element of a phrase that determines what type of phrase it is (in this case, a noun phrase, as 'light-bringers' is a plural noun) occurs in the phrase-final position, on the far right, with everything else 'branching' from it to the left: the object marker(s), the article(s), etc. Synthetic just means that it has a high morpheme-per-word, morphemes being the smallest pieces of language that carry grammatical meaning, like "dogs" has the noun "dog" + the plural morpheme -s. You can see from the example that the Coptic word has many morphemes. The opposite tendency in language, where a language has a low morpheme-to-word ratio, is called analytic (analytic languages), and as you can imagine, this aspect of language occurs on a kind of scale, with some languages being more analytic or more synthetic (they’re not absolute terms).

Arabic:

جالب الضوء
galeb el-daw'
collector def.-light
'light bringer'

Here is roughly the equivalent noun in Arabic. It is actually a noun phrase in the genitive construction (again, an 'of' phrase, i.e., 'bringer of light'), which is expressed syntactically in Arabic, with the first element being non-defined (not carrying the definite article el-) and placed directly next to a defined element: malik el-salam 'king of peace', kitab el-muqaddis 'book of holiness' ( = Holy Bible), etc. X def.-X = X of X.

I suppose if our friend He Is the Way meant that Egyptian is "more condensed" by virtue of having more morphemes per word (more synthetic/less analytic) than Hebrew, then that would be correct, but I doubt that this is what he meant or could have meant for a few reasons:

(1) At least some of those Coptic morphemes (e.g., the direct object marker) are there to keep track of the word's role within the larger sentence from which it was excised, so they're not (strictly speaking) necessary for the word to be properly formed, only to be properly placed within that particular sentence. It's something akin to saying that English is "more condensed" by virtue of "her" expressing not only gender (feminine), but also person (3rd person), and subject/object role (object). That's a lot of things to express via one simple pronoun, right? Right...except that these are simply properties of the pronoun itself. They don’t make English more synthetic (have more morphemes), as there is no way to further break down the word ‘her’ in a manner similar to what has already been done with the Coptic word. So it comes down to a question of what is meant by “condensed”: Is a word that has a lot of morphemes in it ‘more condensed’ by virtue of expressing a lot of information in one word, when other types of languages (more analytic languages/languages with fewer morphemes per word) can also express a lot of information per word without needing to add a bunch of prefixes, suffixes, or other markers to it? Looked at from that perspective, the word with all the “other stuff” attached to its root noun, as in Coptic, doesn’t really look more condensed, does it? It looks much larger/less condensed/more bloated. So it's a matter of how you analyze it.

(2) What I have shown above is true about the Coptic stage of Egyptian in particular, meaning that it is an accurate representation of how Coptic in particular forms words. The thing is that from what little I know about other stages of Egyptian, this is not true at all stages. To quote Brown & Ogilvie (Eds.) Concise Encyclopedia of Languages of the World (Elsevier 2009), “A similar complete cycle can be seen in Egyptian, where Old Egyptian was synthetic, Middle and Late Egyptian analytic, and Coptic, its descendant, again synthetic (Hintze, 1947; Hodge, 1970).” (292) If we keep this in mind when evaluating Mormon claims regarding who was writing what when, then we see that it could have only worked if the Jews in question were writing Old Egyptian (the ancient form of the language written in hieroglyphs). This certainly matches up with what our friend He Is the Way has been posting, but it very much doesn’t match up with the actual historical record of Egyptian language use among the Jews of that country, as I’ve already shown in bringing attention to the Elephantine papyri. The Elephantine papyri actually stretch back long enough to coincide with the Mormon timeline to some degree (the earliest of them date to the 5th century BC, whereas “Reformed Egyptian” is hypothesized to have existed possibly as early in the 4th century BC), and yet at no point in this collection, to the extent that Egyptian is used at all (again, the papyri are mostly written in Aramaic, not Egyptian) do we see the use of Ancient Egyptian. It’s simply not there. And this is the most complete collection we have of Jewish-related writings from the time period. Obviously by the time we get to the Coptic period (which can be very generously dated to the 2nd century AD, as this is when the earliest bilingual Coptic-Greek gospel fragments begin appearing, though some argue for an earlier or later date), it is far too late to be talking about that (read: Coptic is very clearly written in Greek characters, which cannot be confused for hieroglyphs, and furthermore represents a later stage of the Egyptian language than was written in the other writing systems), and yet that is the next stage of Egyptian which would have been synthetic, i.e. “more condensed” by what I am assuming – according to the most charitable understanding I can muster – would be He Is the Way’s way of putting it.

All of this is a very, very long way of saying that it just doesn’t work at all. There is no evidence in any kind of Egyptian for anything that the Mormons claim about their book or its provenance.
What I meant be condensed was that it takes fewer characters to convey the message like comparing shorthand to longhand. It seems to me that the ancient Egyption language uses fewer characters to convey the message than the ancient Hebrew language.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Although Lehi was not a slave, he was a wealthy man. There is no mention of his progenitors although he spent his entire life in Jerusalem. I believe that many of the Jews had dealings with the Egyptians both written and oral language wise.
When Egyptian Pharaohs Ruled Bronze Age Jerusalem - Biblical Archaeology Society


Why would someone want to hang out and learn the language of those who enslaved them?

Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

What is the point of this above verse?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The Biblical Archaeology Society is not an academic association.

Also, it was during the Bronze Age that the cultures of Egypt and Mesopotamia began using the earliest forms of their particular writing systems (Hieroglyphs and Cuneiform, respectively), but the problem for the Mormon narrative is that the available Egyptian papyri that we have don't show any familiarity with Hieroglyphic Egyptian (which you claimed they had written in in post #130), only with Hieratic, Demotic, and Coptic. To call these "reformed Egyptian" runs into the problem I've pointed out over and over in this discussion whenever we've had it: in that case (if they are 'reforms' of preexisting writing systems used for different stages of the same language), they are actual forms of the Egyptian language, and it is clear from all available Mormon sources (e.g., Joseph et al. "Egyptian grammar") that what is presented by Mormons as Egyptian (language) isn't, and the only genuinely Egyptian thing that Joseph apparently ever had access to (the "Book of Abraham" papyri, which was really a funerary text) he bungled his 'translation' of to the point that it does not qualify as that in any sense, but is instead a made up story.

I'm still waiting for your comparison of the Egyptian and Hebrew languages, by the way.


Relating to what you wrote,

"
In the original papyri, Facsimile No. 1 is attached to hieroglyphics from which Joseph created the beginning of the Book of Abraham. It begins with the words, “In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence” (BoA 1:1). In reality, however, the hieroglyphics translate: “Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons — and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified — after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do.”

The document is not the writing of Abraham in Egypt, but is instead the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathing, a late funerary text derived from the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead. This particular scroll was examined by experts (including Mormon experts who agreed with the findings) and after analyzing handwriting, spelling, content, and other contextual issues, they determined the papyri were written sometime during the Late Ptolemaic or Early Roman Period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50). This is problematic for Mormons, however, for if the papyri are only about 2,000 years old, they are far too new to have been “written on by the hand of Abraham”."How the Book of Abraham Exposes the False Nature of Mormonism | Cold Case Christianity

I think the problem proves beyond doubt that God did not translate anything through JS.
 
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He is the way

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Why would someone want to hang out and learn the language of those who enslaved them?

Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

What is the point of this above verse?
God told Joseph to take Jesus to Egypt so He would not be killed due to Herod's proclamation. Most likely Joseph and Mary knew the Egyption language as did Jesus. This was a fulfilment of prophecy when Jesus returned to Jerusalem. It would have taken several days as Egypt is over 400 miles from Jerusalem.
 
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He is the way

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Relating to what you wrote,

"
In the original papyri, Facsimile No. 1 is attached to hieroglyphics from which Joseph created the beginning of the Book of Abraham. It begins with the words, “In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence” (BoA 1:1). In reality, however, the hieroglyphics translate: “Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons — and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified — after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breath forever and ever as the bas of the gods do.”

The document is not the writing of Abraham in Egypt, but is instead the opening portion of an Egyptian Shait en Sensen, or Book of Breathing, a late funerary text derived from the earlier and more complex Book of the Dead. This particular scroll was examined by experts (including Mormon experts who agreed with the findings) and after analyzing handwriting, spelling, content, and other contextual issues, they determined the papyri were written sometime during the Late Ptolemaic or Early Roman Period (circa 50 B.C. to A.D. 50). This is problematic for Mormons, however, for if the papyri are only about 2,000 years old, they are far too new to have been “written on by the hand of Abraham”."How the Book of Abraham Exposes the False Nature of Mormonism | Cold Case Christianity

I think the problem proves beyond doubt that God did not translate anything through JS.
The facsimile is not as it seems. Dead people can't lift their hands and legs in the air. The information that Joseph Smith got from God does not necessarily have to agree with the hieroglyphics or the facsimile. In the Egyptian any copy of the original would be deemed as “written on by the hand of Abraham" even if it was copied many times. We don't have the original transcript of the Bible either.
 
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dzheremi

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The information that Joseph Smith got from God does not necessarily have to agree with the hieroglyphics or the facsimile.

If Joseph Smith or his god is going to claim that what he has produced is a translation, yes it does.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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God told Joseph to take Jesus to Egypt so He would not be killed due to Herod's proclamation. Most likely Joseph and Mary knew the Egyption language as did Jesus. This was a fulfilment of prophecy when Jesus returned to Jerusalem. It would have taken several days as Egypt is over 400 miles from Jerusalem.

Not likely since Jesus was a infant and a language of slave masters is disliked. Concerning trade in his home town, language of others was limited to only what was needed for trade. In fact, contemporary with Old Testament times, can you produce any Scriptures in Israel written in in Egyption?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Jesus was born around 6 BC and returned after Herod the Great died around 4 BC. He would not be learning a language that was used outside the home. In the home only languages spoken by Jewish people like Hebrew and Aramaic would be used. During the trade in Jesus home town Greek would be the language used since it was universal at the time.

Their Bible was even translated in Greek before Jesus was born, not in the language of Egypt.
 
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