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What method can we use to distinguish the ancient Israelites from ISIS?

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Sounds like you are utterly unable, to take a step back and consider the position of someone who doesn't believe the fantastical claims of the OT.
And you sound like someone who is trying to have there cake and eat it too. If you don't believe the "fantastical claims" of the OT are true then don't ask silly questions with the pretense that the claims are true. Perhaps you or the OP should find an extra-Biblical example or a documented historical account where a people who called themselves "Israelites" massacred an entire nation because they claimed God told them.
 
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DogmaHunter

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And you sound like someone who is trying to have there cake and eat it too. If you don't believe the "fantastical claims" of the OT are true then don't ask silly questions with the pretense that the claims are true.

Nobody is asking questions with the pretense that the supernatural claims of the OT are true.

A bunch of people, call it an army, invading another area while believing that a god commanded them to do that, isn't a supernatural event. Nore is it one without precedent.

Perhaps you or the OP should find an extra-Biblical example or a documented historical account where a people who called themselves "Israelites" massacred an entire nation because they claimed God told them.

I don't know if there are such sources, nore do I consider it important for the purpose of the OP.

For the purpose of the OP, we assume that Israelites did battle with amalekites while believing that the god they worship, commanded them to.

Wheter their god actually commanded them to, is not relevant in this discussion.

Because from the perspective of the infidel, their "god commanded it" claim looks pretty much identical to jihadi's claiming to do their muslim duty.
 
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apogee

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And you sound like someone who is trying to have there cake and eat it too. If you don't believe the "fantastical claims" of the OT are true then don't ask silly questions with the pretense that the claims are true. Perhaps you or the OP should find an extra-Biblical example or a documented historical account where a people who called themselves "Israelites" massacred an entire nation because they claimed God told them.

I don't think I'm the only person here, who can confidently say, that they actually have an imaginary time machine parked outside, and so can experience history directly from any perspective they can conceive of, without ever having to refer to anything as banal, as an external source of 'information'.
 
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apogee

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I don't think I'm the only person here, who can confidently say, that they actually have an imaginary time machine parked outside, and so can experience history directly from any perspective they can conceive of, without ever having to refer to anything as banal, as an external source of 'information'.

For instance...I totally just imagined this revelatory piece of history:

Random Amorite: Friend, the fearsome Israelites are on their way to utterly destroy you, on orders of their god.

Random Amalekite: (instantly crippled by a fit of hysterics) bah ha ha …haha..stop it you're killing me….. (solemnly gathers breath) ….. that’s the most hilarious thing I’ve heard all year. Pass me my sword, it’s right there next to the baby broiler.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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For instance...I totally just imagined this revelatory piece of history:

Random Amorite: Friend, the fearsome Israelites are on their way to utterly destroy you, on orders of their god.

Random Amalekite: (instantly crippled by a fit of hysterics) bah ha ha …haha..stop it you're killing me….. (solemnly gathers breath) ….. that’s the most hilarious thing I’ve heard all year. Pass me my sword, it’s right there next to the baby broiler.

....I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that, apogee. :sorry:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Ita an emotional tale, I've calculated that it has a 72.3% chance of being completely true.

That's quite a calculation, if I do say so myself. ^_^ ...I guess if the Amalekites were as morally bankrupt as the Bible implies they were, it could be accurate.
 
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I don't know if there are such sources, nore do I consider it important for the purpose of the OP.
Well...I guess you are comparing apples to oranges.

For the purpose of the OP, we assume that Israelites did battle with amalekites while believing that the god they worship, commanded them to.
So why are we assuming that the Bible is true in regards to the Amalekites yet assume that the miracles prior to the battle is not true? Is the Bible a historically credible record or not? If the battle actually happened, why not miracles? If the battle did not happen, why are we comparing it to ISIS? Do you not see the problem here? You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Wheter their god actually commanded them to, is not relevant in this discussion.
IT'S EXACTLY THE POINT OF THE DISCUSSION! IF GOD ACTUALLY COMMANDED THEM, HOW DO WE KNOW?
 
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I don't think I'm the only person here, who can confidently say, that they actually have an imaginary time machine parked outside, and so can experience history directly from any perspective they can conceive of, without ever having to refer to anything as banal, as an external source of 'information'.
Does anyone have the contact information for Mrs. Frizzle? We need to borrow her magic school bus.
 
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Tom 1

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This question about actions or commands of God in the OT is one that seems to come up fairly often. I think it can be looked at as a variation on the ‘trolley question’ the ethical question posed in different ways about a tram or trolley racing downhill towards one group of people, with an observer who has the opportunity to change the points so that the tram instead barrels into an individual, or a different group.
If I can take the liberty, from God’s perspective this might look something like -

You have provided guidance and fundamental laws (e.g look up the Noahite laws) to all mankind to enable them to live with one another and manage creation responsibly and safely. This has all gone a bit Pete Tong. Having waited many generations you have found someone to begin a tribe through which you can bring your ultimate plan of salvation into fruition. The complicated nature of individual freedom you have endowed man with means that this process will take place in a dangerous world. People outside of the tribe can become part of it, if they chose to, but will not be coerced to. This tension between threat and opportunity reaches critical levels when the members of another tribe threaten to overwhelm the balance by flaunting the basic laws of survival, pouring chaos into the world and extinguishing all human value and sensitivity. You don’t want to act hastily - maybe they will change - but you know that destruction is inevitably hurtling down the tracks, and that your fledgling tribe, imperfect as they are, will bear the brunt of it if they don’t act. So, what do you do? What would you do? Allow the inevitable to happen and let your (more or less) faithful tribe be wiped out? Or change the points and let the destruction rain down on the aggressors, those threatening the very order you are trying to establish? This is all taking place in a time at which constant fighting between city states and tribes was the norm, and you have that reality to contend with also.

A more recent event to apply the same thinking to would be WW2. During his time directing the UK’s war effort, Churchill made decisions that lead to the extremely unpleasant deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, men, women and children. The allies dropped nuclear bombs on civilian targets in Japan, ending the war but causing untold suffering, overall civillian deaths far beyond the numbers of people actually killed by the Israelites in their whole history. Relevant questions might be what would have happened if Chamberlain had remained in power and his view of the emerging conflict had been followed? I am sure there are many more.

Obviously I am generalising here but there does seem to be a tendency in modern education to divorce ideas about humanity from actual reality, leading to a kind of fanciful ‘why can’t everybody just be nice?’ view that is deeply unnatural in its assumptions. Do we live in a classroom, or in a complicated world? What is gained and what is lost when ideas and their very real affects on everyday life are divorced from the business of what actually happens in the world and how people actually function?
 
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Uber Genius

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Suppose you were living several thousand years ago in a village in the Near East. Put yourself in that context.

You receive word from a messenger that a nearby village has recently been destroyed by another tribe who claims that they were told by their god that they are chosen people. The tribe is on their way and were told by their god that they must "totally destroy all that belongs to you". Furthermore they were told by their god to "not spare you; put to death your men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." The messenger also says that these people say that anyone who believes in a different god must not be spared, should be put to the sword and killed.

Now suppose, you are living today in Syria. Put yourself in that context. Suppose you hear the same thing about a group called ISIS.

Same region of the world. Different time. If you could time travel back and forth between the two time periods, is there any method that you, as an external observer, could use to ascertain that the God of the Israelites should be worshipped while the God of the Muslims should be fought against?

Note 1: Remember to picture this from the perspective of an ancient Near Easterner. You do not yet have the hindsight view of post-New Testament interpretations. In the same way, today we do not have the potential hindsight view of ISIS in the year 3000 A.D.

Note 2: For reference I am looking at 1 Samuel 15, Deuteronomy 13, and Numbers 31 with regards to Christian beliefs and Quran 2:191, Quran 9:123, Quran 9:5, among others with regards to the beliefs of Muslim extremists (e.g. ISIS).
You have captured a portion of the nature of the battles Moses, Joshua, and the Jews fought when gaining the promise land.

The canaanites worshiped different gods and sacrificed their children to these gods. But as long as we are doing an epistemic experiment lets focus on what warrant the Jews might have:

Seeing the Red Sea parted
Seeing God put a pillar of smoke by day and pillar of fire by night in their camp
Seeing God destroy the Egyptian army
Delivering them miraculously with 10 plagues prophesied
etc.

We are talking about a culture that had seen enormous justification for believing their God. And we should examine the truth-claims of Islam seriously. Not brush them off as violent and abhorrent. The truth of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam don't stand or fall based on their bad actors (ad hominem fallacy) but rather based on their ability to best account for the world we encounter.

It is obvious that once we find out in the future the truth about religious claims, the majority of claims will turn out to be false.

But also in science, when we finally figure out the grand unified theory it will be on the backs of tens of thousands of false theories that appeared inductively true at some point in history.

So limits to knowledge shouldn't scare us. We have rationality, and can examine claims.

Finally, if the Judeo-Christian God is the true God, then he has the right to judge his creation as he sees fit, being the creator, being all-knowing, he would not only know everyone's past intentions, and the damage they caused, but also future damage. Being the standard for justice he would know whether the punishment fit the crime.

So any attempt to analogize the destruction of the Canaanites with ISIS terrorism would be nothing more than an appeal to emotion.

Finally, there is a lot more going on than just a divine command to grab land, it is related to the giant clans in the north and ties to 1st Enoch. But that is a rabbit trail for another time.
 
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Barney2.0

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Ancient Israelites had the priority goal to survive and had to wage violent wars do survive it wasn’t something they wanted. While Isis on the other hand wages war to make the world submit to Islam through violent means.
 
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Hawkins

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is there any method that you, as an external observer, could use to ascertain that the God of the Israelites should be worshipped while the God of the Muslims should be fought against?

If God didn't give the command to eradicate the Canaanites, the Jews would have been outnumbered and wiped out by them. Then how can God's salvation message reach today's humans to save the many. That is to say, if the Canaanites were not killed, all mankind today will enter the eternal hell. God is to clean up the already dead (Canaanites back then were Baal worshipers by killing their own children) to give way for the survival of the Jews to carry forward God's salvation such that humans in the timeline of humanity are savable.
 
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