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What method can we use to distinguish the ancient Israelites from ISIS?

2PhiloVoid

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In both cases, it concerns "infidels" having to deal with an invading force which claims to act on command of the god they believe in.

Seems very similar to me.

They follow different religions, so obviously the content of their beliefs will be different as well.
But that's not what the OP is about. The OP is from the perspective of the victims, not the aggressors.

...nice slide in through the back door of a notion that, in the biblical context, hasn't really ever been established. But, you go on ahead with your inference to, and use of, the highly supposed "victimization" of the Canaanites, and I'll just forget that you along with just about every other ornery atheist this side of 9/11 decisively ignores the exegetical details embedded in the Old Testament narrative.

(It's ok. I understand. I know it's really, really, really difficult for you atheists to actually do any homework when it comes to engaging and studying the Bible, let alone the Old Testament. It's so much easier to just go with the status quo assumptions about ethics and morality [in association with some kind of ethereal sense of "well-being"] which constantly spew like a waterfall from the mouths of Anti-christians ... ) o_O
 
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That's false.

We can perfectly assume that the amalekite genocide happened and was carried out by israelites who believed they were acting in the name of the god they worship, without having to assume that any supernatural event ever happened which required the suspension or violation of the laws of physics.

Claims about miracles are a dime a dozen anyway. And Islam is no exception.
Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse and split the moon in two and then glued it back together you know................
You are wrong. The op clearly stated that his sources were biblical with the assumption that those biblical sources are true.

Note 2: For reference I am looking at 1 Samuel 15, Deuteronomy 13, and Numbers 31 with regards to Christian beliefs and Quran 2:191, Quran 9:123, Quran 9:5, among others with regards to the beliefs of Muslim extremists (e.g. ISIS).

You cannot ask the question under the paradigm that the Israelite slaughter of the amalekites is true and then deny the paradigm that the miracles prior to said slaughter is true as well. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
 
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DogmaHunter

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...nice slide in through the back door of a notion that, in the biblical context, hasn't really ever been established. But, you go on ahead with your inference to, and use of, the highly supposed "victimization" of the Canaanites, and I'll just forget that you along with just about every other ornery atheist this side of 9/11 decisively ignores the exegetical details embedded in the Old Testament narrative.

(It's ok. I understand. I know it's really, really, really difficult for you atheists to actually do any homework when it comes to engaging and studying the Bible, let alone the Old Testament. It's so much easier to just go with the status quo assumptions about ethics and morality [in association with some kind of ethereal sense of "well-being"] which constantly spew like a waterfall from the mouths of Anti-christians ... ) o_O

When one group invades the land of another group, with the explicit intention to commit genocide, then I can not use any other words then "victim" for the ones being killed and "aggressor" for the ones invading...

You see, in my worldview, there isn't a single act that anyone could engage in, which would justify genocide (including the babies and toddlers, for crying out loud....).

There just isn't.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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When one group invades the land of another group, with the explicit intention to commit genocide, then I can not use any other words then "victim" for the ones being killed and "aggressor" for the ones invading...

You see, in my worldview, there isn't a single act that anyone could engage in, which would justify genocide (including the babies and toddlers, for crying out loud....).

There just isn't.

That's fine that you have a "worldview," but regardless, just telling us that you have a worldview doesn't explain anything to us and doesn't move us one iota towards accepting your worldview. Furthermore, if you want to persuade people to relinquish what you think are errors in their thinking, then it typically is better to actually engage their various reasons in a substantive manner rather than just tossing around ethereal notions about this or that moral idea that you find intuitively compelling. Did you happen to see the video I posted above done by MADLUV? He is a former atheist, by the way...

What method can we use to distinguish the ancient Israelites from ISIS?
 
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DogmaHunter

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You are wrong. The op clearly stated that his sources were biblical with the assumption that those biblical sources are true.

The OP states no such thing.
It says explicitly to look at this from the perspective of an amalekite. Thus you are an unbeliever concerning the religion of the Israelites. For all you are concerned, a tribe of religious fanatics is underway, coming to kill you and the rest of your tribe.

It doesn't say anything about assuming that the OT is completely true. At all.
Here's a copy paste of the OP scenario:

You receive word from a messenger that a nearby village has recently been destroyed by another tribe who claims that they were told by their god that they are chosen people. The tribe is on their way and were told by their god that they must "totally destroy all that belongs to you". Furthermore they were told by their god to "not spare you; put to death your men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." The messenger also says that these people say that anyone who believes in a different god must not be spared, should be put to the sword and killed.

See?

You cannot ask the question under the paradigm that the Israelite slaughter of the amalekites is true and then deny the paradigm that the miracles prior to said slaughter is true as well. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Those biblical quotes, along with the Quranic quotes, were given to provide context of what the invading forces believe(d) and what their motivation was/is.

Long story short: both groups claim to be acting out the will of the god they believe in.

You, as the conceptual amalekite or syrian, don't believe what the invading people believe. So you do NOT believe that they are acting out the will of god. That's what the invaders believe.


Are you so tied up in your religious beliefs, that you are literally unable to take a conceptual step backwards and look at this from an angle of an unbeliever?
 
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DogmaHunter

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That's fine that you have a "worldview," but regardless, just telling us that you have a worldview doesn't explain anything to us and doesn't move us one iota towards accepting your worldview. Furthermore, if you want to persuade people to relinquish what you think are errors in their thinking, then it typically is better to actually engage their various reasons in a substantive manner rather than just tossing around ethereal notions about this or that moral idea that you find intuitively compelling. Did you happen to see the video I posted above done by MADLUV? He is a former atheist, by the way...

What method can we use to distinguish the ancient Israelites from ISIS?

Read the OP.

The point of this thread is to approach it from the perspective of one of the people of the tribes that are being slaughtered.

To them, surely the forces that are invading their lands with the intention to kill them all, including babies and toddlers, would be called aggressors, right? ........right?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Read the OP.

The point of this thread is to approach it from the perspective of one of the people of the tribes that are being slaughtered.

To them, surely the forces that are invading their lands with the intention to kill them all, including babies and toddlers, would be called aggressors, right? ........right?

And I might suggest you read my first 3 or 4 responses to the O.P. and see what I told him are the reasons I think his OP is irrelevant in this case. :cool:
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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First of all, talking about wholesale slaughter of any people, whether they happened to be indeed guilty of crimes or not isn't my idea of fun. Maybe it's yours. On top of that, I do get tired of the same ol' one track lines from skeptics--with whom it seems you are siding here, in this instance, even if you are a "seeker"--in their attempt to morally disparage the O.T. AND at the same time to insert their own moral prejudices (and false, unjustified assumptions) in behind from the back door so that their moral stance goes, somehow, unquestioned (as if it couldn't be questioned...)

And I've said it before, and I'll say it again, and I'm sure I'll have to keep saying it again ad naseum that there are NO free-tickets for morality, none that we can just take for granted. If there is a biblical God, and if the whole moral culpability that human beings have for their sins is true, then Holiness isn't just another tiny little factor in the ethical and moral play that all human beings are participating in. To assume that judgement by God has nothing to do with His holiness is to miss the big picture, and it also is to assume that the God of the Bible doesn't really exist.

So, you started out in your previous post above saying something about "fun," but then you quickly slid into a form of speech that seems to side with the many detractors of the O.T. that we all to often see here. Then you wonder why some of us just don't take to your insinuative thought experiment. Please, spare us the humoring here. This is not a topic I'll breach without spiritual fists raised; and you better be able to take what you dish out, because I WILL take you to task for it if need be. I'm not going to let this stuff slide anymore, and you might have a problem with me being that I DO defend the O.T., even if it ISN'T by way of resorting to the the usual evangelical modes of defense. I have my own angle of chutzpah by which to exonerate the O.T. narratives. o_O

And here's the rub, and what this whole thing basically comes down to: If the Bible is true, then the Amalekites were guilty of what God says they're guilty of and, like the rest of us, they were deserving of the death penalty both spiritually and physically for their sins, something which Jesus fortunately came to save us from if we repent and respond to Him in faith. If the Bible isn't true, then we can assert one of a wide number of alternative ethical frameworks that we think floats our moral boats since, without God, there really isn't much in the way of any absolute morality. What remains at some very, very minimalistic level involving our moral inituitions would remain for practical purposes rather than having emerged in our minds from some kind of actualized, Platonic sense of "the Good."

My issue is that there appears to be no consistency in your faith or theology on this particular topic.

I assume you, like many Christians, would condemn ISIS almost unanimously?

If you do condemn them, then why do you condemn them? I assume it is because they are killing people in the name of their god. They believe their god has commanded them to do so. But I must remind you that they believe that their god is the same god as the god of the Old Testament.

Would the Amalekites and other tribes not have condemned the ancient Israelites for exactly the same reasons that you condemn ISIS? Were they not justified in their condemnation?

Same action yet different judgement. Why the inconsistency?
 
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apogee

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In both cases, it concerns "infidels" having to deal with an invading force which claims to act on command of the god they believe in.

Seems very similar to me.

Nonsense, let's be fair to ISIS they don't kill people because they have been directly commanded by God. They do it for glory, and fun. You are (wilfully?) confusing an ideological conquest, with a struggle for survival.

They follow different religions, so obviously the content of their beliefs will be different as well.
But that's not what the OP is about.

Actually that seems to me to be precisely what it is about, but I missed that too.

The OP is from the perspective of the victims, not the aggressors.

Actually the OP is about the viewpoint of the 'impartial' time traveller on the worthiness of the respective gods, which granted didn't make any sense to me either.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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And I might suggest you read my first 3 or 4 responses to the O.P. and see what I told him are the reasons I think his OP is irrelevant in this case. :cool:

It is absolutely relevant.

If you condemn one group and not the other, then your morality is groundless without any foundation.

You may claim that "God is your foundation" and so if God says it was ok and necessary, then it was ok and necessary. But you only know this after several millenia of hindsight (with regards to the Israelites). At the time, Israel would have appeared the same as ISIS. So, you should forego your judgement of ISIS for several millenia in case they turn out to be acting in accordance with God's will and long term plan.

If your dogmatic approach to the inerrancy of the Bible leads to the conclusion that ISIS should not be condemned, then I would argue that something is wrong with your approach.

ISIS should be condemned, do you agree?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Nonsense, let's be fair to ISIS they don't kill people because they have been directly commanded by God.

That is not what the jihadi's claim.

They do it for glory, and fun. You are (wilfully?) confusing an ideological conquest, with a struggle for survival.

You are (wilfully?) assuming your opinion of them, as their actual motivation.

Actually that seems to me to be precisely what it is about, but I missed that too.

No, it's not. The OP is about the perspective of the one who's being killed by people who claim to be acting out the will of the god they believe in.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Nonsense, let's be fair to ISIS they don't kill people because they have been directly commanded by God. They do it for glory, and fun. You are (wilfully?) confusing an ideological conquest, with a struggle for survival.

You misunderstand ISIS' motivations.

They sincerely believe that Allah has commanded them to do this.

What ISIS Really Wants


Actually that seems to me to be precisely what it is about, but I missed that too.

Actually the OP is about the viewpoint of the 'impartial' time traveller on the worthiness of the respective gods, which granted didn't make any sense to me either.

I think the OP is pretty clear that is meant to be taken from the perspective of the victims.

"The [Israelite] tribe is on their way and were told by their god that they must "totally destroy all that belongs to you"." (Emphasis added).

In the OP, the aggressor tribe is coming for you after having just slaughtered a nearby village.

This is the same situation that modern day Syrians and Iraqis have experienced with ISIS. They have, in recent years, heard word that a group is coming for them to conquer and murder them.
 
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The OP states no such thing.
It says explicitly to look at this from the perspective of an amalekite. Thus you are an unbeliever concerning the religion of the Israelites. For all you are concerned, a tribe of religious fanatics is underway, coming to kill you and the rest of your tribe.

It doesn't say anything about assuming that the OT is completely true. At all.
Here's a copy paste of the OP scenario:

You receive word from a messenger that a nearby village has recently been destroyed by another tribe who claims that they were told by their god that they are chosen people. The tribe is on their way and were told by their god that they must "totally destroy all that belongs to you". Furthermore they were told by their god to "not spare you; put to death your men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." The messenger also says that these people say that anyone who believes in a different god must not be spared, should be put to the sword and killed.

See?



Those biblical quotes, along with the Quranic quotes, were given to provide context of what the invading forces believe(d) and what their motivation was/is.

Long story short: both groups claim to be acting out the will of the god they believe in.

You, as the conceptual amalekite or syrian, don't believe what the invading people believe. So you do NOT believe that they are acting out the will of god. That's what the invaders believe.


Are you so tied up in your religious beliefs, that you are literally unable to take a conceptual step backwards and look at this from an angle of an unbeliever?

Well...if that how we are going to play the game. What if I were to say that the miracles happened and the slaughter of the amalekites didn't? So Isis has absolutely no comparison to the ancient Israelites.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Well...if that how we are going to play the game. What if I were to say that the miracles happened and the slaughter of the amalekites didn't?

Sounds like a nice topic for a new thread.

In this thread though, the topic is looking at the israelite invaders from the perspective of the invaded and to compare that to the ISIS invaders from the perspective of the invaded.
 
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Sounds like a nice topic for a new thread.

In this thread though, the topic is looking at the israelite invaders from the perspective of the invaded and to compare that to the ISIS invaders from the perspective of the invaded.

In that case the answer remains the same. The "Israelite invasion" from the "perspective of the invaded" was, "Holy @$#!, they did what to the Egyptians! They did what to Jericho! We are thoroughly screwed and we better do what they want!"

And again I see no such thing from ISIS. When we see the U.S. military crushed by the sound of ISIS rebels blowing trumpets, then we can talk.
 
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apogee

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That is not what the jihadi's claim.

Of course not.

You are (wilfully?) assuming your opinion of them, as their actual motivation.

I have an opinion on their personal motivations, based partially on the tendency to post selfies with the mutilated carcasses of their enemies.

No, it's not. The OP is about the perspective of the one who's being killed by people who claim to be acting out the will of the god they believe in.

Apologies, I concede the OP is about the opinion of the time travelling victim of both groups. Clearly they are equally displeased with whoever the nasty person is that is disturbing their otherwise tranquil and peace loving existence.
 
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apogee

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You misunderstand ISIS' motivations.

They sincerely believe that Allah has commanded them to do this.

What ISIS Really Wants

Thanks for the article, I'm pretty sure this is pretty much in agreement with what I wrote in post 37, apart from the bit about the playboy mansion which is a reference to the heavenly rewards granted to Islamic martyrs.

I think the OP is pretty clear that is meant to be taken from the perspective of the victims.

Yeah sorry about that.

"The [Israelite] tribe is on their way and were told by their god that they must "totally destroy all that belongs to you"." (Emphasis added).

In the OP, the aggressor tribe is coming for you after having just slaughtered a nearby village.

This is the same situation that modern day Syrians and Iraqis have experienced with ISIS. They have, in recent years, heard word that a group is coming for them to conquer and murder them.

These similarities are superficial at best, and superimposed at worst. Largely for the reasons that you've posted in the article above.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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My issue is that there appears to be no consistency in your faith or theology on this particular topic.
Well, with nothing for you to compare me by, and your not having heard from me directly as yet specifically what my beliefs or thoughts are on this issue, I'm sure it is difficult for you to see whether or not I'm being consistence with my faith or theology. Let's see if we can move forward in helping you dispel the notion that I'm being inconsistent with theology … as I see it.

I assume you, like many Christians, would condemn ISIS almost unanimously?
mmmmmmmmmmmmm.....it's probably not good to assume much in my case. While I do eschew the works and ideas of the said group in question, I also generally eschew the central ideas of the theology that drives not only that group, but the entire religion from which is emerges as a radical element.

If you do condemn them, then why do you condemn them? I assume it is because they are killing people in the name of their god. They believe their god has commanded them to do so. But I must remind you that they believe that their god is the same god as the god of the Old Testament.
Essentially, I do have a problem with them killing people, but not so much 'because' they do it in the name of god as they have historically conceptualized Him, but rather because there is no theological room for either their theology, or for the violent actions of radicals among them, especially not on this side of the New Testament.

Moreover, while I know they make the claim that they are worshiping the same God, they can do so all day and night as far as I'm concerned, but their theological errors remain and have remained ever since their religion was begun around 1,500 years ago; the most egregious of their errors being that they don't accept Jesus as God, the Son of God, in which case, they therefore don't worship God in His fullness, no matter what they say. Further on again, it's therefore very, very highly questionable that their religion counts as any sort of expression that carries continuity from the Old Testament since: 1) they aren't Jews, and 2) we in the rest of the world are not aware of any actual miracles on a par with the Exodus and parting of the Red Sea.

All that the people of the entire Muslim religion have going for them is the possibility that God, as He did with Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon (who was operative in the same area of the world, no less), raised them up to serve as a punishment upon idolatrous peoples surrounding them, even perhaps as a punishment upon His own people, both Jews and Christians. [See Leviticus Chapter 18 as an example of how God thinks about who merits "staying on the land," whether it be here, or there.]

Would the Amalekites and other tribes not have condemned the ancient Israelites for exactly the same reasons that you condemn ISIS? Were they not justified in their condemnation?
I can't make a conjecture like you want me to because to do so would be anachronistic and would require that I assume that all people in all places and at all times...thought the same things about the world, about their respective societies, and about human nature. And this isn't exactly the case! So, I'll refrain from making labored and unjustified assumptions that the Amalekites would have thought the same thing that anyone in a modern, Liberal, Democratized nation would think.

Same action yet different judgement. Why the inconsistency?
Same action; different understanding of God, thereby false worship of God, with little to commend their identity through Abraham other than that their identity is, to them, just as justified as that of the Israelites who also connect their lineage through Abraham and of whose descendants we still have with us today (i.e. the Jewish people). But, Muslim identity is not something that I'm theologically compelled to agree with--and I don't have to. On the one hand, I can affirm that Muslim people are a legitimate people, obviously, and from a Christian perspective, deserving of a place in the world with the rest of us and due mutual respect and care, but this doesn't also apply to their religion.

And vice versa, I don't have to respect the religion (or culture) of the ancient Amalekites, either.

By the way, did you even bother to watch that video I posted in a previous post?
 
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Tom 1

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Suppose you were living several thousand years ago in a village in the Near East. Put yourself in that context.

You receive word from a messenger that a nearby village has recently been destroyed by another tribe who claims that they were told by their god that they are chosen people. The tribe is on their way and were told by their god that they must "totally destroy all that belongs to you". Furthermore they were told by their god to "not spare you; put to death your men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." The messenger also says that these people say that anyone who believes in a different god must not be spared, should be put to the sword and killed.

Now suppose, you are living today in Syria. Put yourself in that context. Suppose you hear the same thing about a group called ISIS.

Same region of the world. Different time. If you could time travel back and forth between the two time periods, is there any method that you, as an external observer, could use to ascertain that the God of the Israelites should be worshipped while the God of the Muslims should be fought against?

Note 1: Remember to picture this from the perspective of an ancient Near Easterner. You do not yet have the hindsight view of post-New Testament interpretations. In the same way, today we do not have the potential hindsight view of ISIS in the year 3000 A.D.

Note 2: For reference I am looking at 1 Samuel 15, Deuteronomy 13, and Numbers 31 with regards to Christian beliefs and Quran 2:191, Quran 9:123, Quran 9:5, among others with regards to the beliefs of Muslim extremists (e.g. ISIS).

Just read the OP again, I’m not completely sure if I’ve understood what you are asking but I’m assuming that you’re not questioning along the lines of ‘what’s the difference between being killed by this group or that group?’, i.e a soldier killed by the enemy or by friendly fire is dead either way, so no difference there. I’m assuming you’re asking a qualitative question about the motivations people carrying out the killing.

To answer that I think you have to take several steps back and review the context on different levels, broadly, in terms of the nature of reality as we experience it, the context of the time and place, and the eventual purpose of the tribe of Israel in history. To understand that requires a lot more time and I don’t think that can be easily addressed in a short post, at least I can’t think of a way that could be done. What you’re looking at there are the differences between a world dominated by the worldview of a disturbing culture like that of the Amalekites and that which we have actually inherited - it takes a lot of careful investigation to put it together, as it is far from a linear progression and so easy to pick holes in from superficial perspectives, but, contrary to popular modern beliefs, the Judeo-Christian influence on modern Western society is what we ultimately have to thank for a lot of the individual freedoms we enjoy. Answers that don’t address these questions of context ultimately come down to pointless virtue signalling and random assertions that add nothing to understanding.

To get to grips with the ‘nature of reality’ from a biblical perspective you have to ask questions like ‘what is sin’ ‘why is it so destructive’ ‘what is free will’, ‘why does sin lead to death?’ and so on, you need to have an understanding of those issues in order to begin to understand the sometimes violent struggle for Israel’s physical survival and spiritual identity. To my mind Nicolás Gómez Dávila sums this way of thinking up effectively -

‘No (moral) limit is inherent to a being; no ambition denies itself. Every denial is born of an obstacle, all abstention of a rejection. The universe is a system of reciprocal limitations, where the object is constructed as a state of tension between conflicting forces. Violence, the cruel minister of the limited nature of things, imposes the standards of actualised existence’.

Bearing in mind that David/Saul didn’t actually carry out ‘genocide’ and weren’t the initial aggressors or invaders - which is a very simplified idea of what happened - (read all of 1 Sam 27-end) Questions about the survival of the Amalekites vs the survival of Israel are either/or questions. After the 400 years between God’s stated intent (to Abraham) to judge the Amalekites and the eventual execution of this judgement, they made themselves intolerable in a universe in which salvation could only remain a possibility through the survival of the Jewish nation. That is the brutal nature of it. We see that every day - sin has devastating affects. A person who is abused as a child will often be targeted by predators for the rest of their life due to the affects of the original abuse, the affects of neglectful or abusive parents, beliefs in caste systems, etc etc etc have real life, devastating, terrible effects. That is reality.

The Israelites were not an invading force, they were fighting for their own survival. Usually this fight had limitations of necessity, in some cases it involved eliminating the threat (although not actually completely as it happens). ISIS is/was an invading force, actively invading territories and subjecting the peoples therein to their own interpretations of sharia law. This is the nature of Islam from the beginning - as Bertrand Russell summed up, to all intents and purposes in any of it’s expansionary phases it was (for the leadership) a religion of convenience used for political and economic ends (of course Christianity has been bent to that end at times but an exploration of the whys and wherefores might be an subject for another post - the essential differences are in does the text of the religion teach what it is being used for?), through violence. Christians and Jews living under Muslim occupation are (if the law is enforced) relegated to an impossible state of complete non self expression on pain of death, such impossible limits are placed on their behaviour by Islamic law that there is no alternative but to convert or die. Israel was, as far as possible without leaving itself open to complete destruction, a community of open borders to strangers and the oppressed, living wherever possible in peace with it’s neighbours. But to understand that be prepared for a lot of study, to get past the popular misconceptions based on selected verses.

Beyond that an important question to ask is what is being presented in the accounts of a particular person’s behaviour, e.g. David? Biblical heroes are presented ‘warts and all’, with all of their mistakes, personal sins and so on. Sometimes people think that if a biblical character behaves in such and such a way, then that means his or her behaviour is being held up as a good example, which is far from being true. To understand the behaviour of biblical characters held up as ‘heroes of faith’ it is essential to have some grasp of their life and times, what was considered normal, what was simply expedient, what their ultimate ends were and so on. Trying to understand the actions of, for example, kind David from a purely 21stC perspective is pointless. Looked at as a whole, with the large timescales, while God may be deeply involved in human affairs in some sense he also refrains from intruding except very rarely. He places a great deal of responsibility on our shoulders, and provides us with the means to understand the very real outcomes of our choices and actions, giving us the space to choose and act as we see fit.
 
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DogmaHunter

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In that case the answer remains the same. The "Israelite invasion" from the "perspective of the invaded" was, "Holy @$#!, they did what to the Egyptians! They did what to Jericho! We are thoroughly screwed and we better do what they want!"

And again I see no such thing from ISIS. When we see the U.S. military crushed by the sound of ISIS rebels blowing trumpets, then we can talk.

Sounds like you are utterly unable, to take a step back and consider the position of someone who doesn't believe the fantastical claims of the OT.
 
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