what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

dfw69 said:

if i had to choose from all the religious foundations laid....i choose jesus foundation above all...who else can die for me?...but a perfect sacrifice..the son of god....
such a wonderful love story.....of the love of god for man...to deny is to deny gods embracing love......

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Why do you feel compelled to choose any religion, at all?

dfw69 said:

Because i believe in a god creator of heaven and earth

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Why, if I may ask?

dfw69 said:

Why do i believe in god?.....because of god revealing himself to israel...because of the old testament account.....because its easy to understand that this world is a creation of an divine being

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Many things have been written down through the epochs, by virtually every ethnic group that has ever existed. How would one know the Israelites were correct, if at all?

dfw69 said:

if i had to choose from all the religious foundations laid....i choose jesus foundation above all...who else can die for me?...but a perfect sacrifice..the son of god....
such a wonderful love story.....of the love of god for man...to deny is to deny gods embracing love......

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Why do I deny the embracing love by saying such a sacrifice was and never will be necessary? To me it is an ill conceived plan.

I have to say, CaliforniaSun, if I found out that my religion was absolutely wrong, I would not see it as wasted time or even being wrong. If there is no divine element behind it, the moral advice is still good advice.

LoAmmi said:

I have to say, CaliforniaSun, if I found out that my religion was absolutely wrong, I would not see it as wasted time or even being wrong. If there is no divine element behind it, the moral advice is still good advice.

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I agree with you LoAmmi. Religions, generally speaking offer much in the way of social and moral benefits.

CaliforniaSun said:

I agree with you LoAmmi. Religions, generally speaking offer much in the way of social and moral benefits.

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I never agree with people that religion is necessary for moral behavior, but if structure helps people what is the harm?

Oddly, I've never much regarded Christianity to be much in regards to a social-moral project. Rather I've tended to view Christianity as socially and morally subversive--even within nominally Christian societies where the religion is appropriated by the powers-that-be.

-CryptoLutheran

How do you view Christianity as being morally or socially subversive to Judaism?

dfw69 said:

ill concieve plan by who?....jesus john....and the disciples...and later paul?

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HaShem. He could simply forgive everybody if that was His eventual goal. it makes it sound like His hands were tied for no reason.

LoAmmi said:

How do you view Christianity as being morally or socially subversive to Judaism?

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To Judaism? I don't. But Judaism isn't exactly the status quo in today's world, nor are Jews exactly the majority or the ones who maintain the power.

I view Christianity as morally and socially subversive in that I think if one looks at the things Jesus says, or even the things Paul and the other writers of the New Testament said one sees a kind of moral, political and social inversive.

Morality, typically, is a top-down social system, what is fundamentally good in a moral system in society is that which perpetuates the system. To rock the moral fabric is to shake the society at its foundation. When Christians were arrested and sent before the court, the charges were always about how Christians were moral and social subversives. Seen as being a threat to Rome's social mores and traditional values. Christians were charged with atheism, with being enemies of the human race, with attacking traditional family values, and generally upsetting the basic social order of the Empire.

Even in Christian dominant societies, Christianity has still--when it is the voice of the least and the lesser--spoken truth to power. The language of Dr. Martin Luther King was the language of the New Testament, the language of Bonhoeffer and the Confessing Church again was the language of the Gospel (especially the Sermon on the Mount). When kings and emperors oppressed, it was usually the voice of the religious who spoke to them against their tyranny. The tradition of the role of the Holy Fool in Russia and the rest of the Orthodox world, for example. The examples of lone Christians standing firm against emperors (again, even Christian emperors) such as when St. Ambrose rebuked Theodosius and refused him entry to the church and ordered the emperor to repent in ash and sackcloth in imitation of King David after the emperor massacred thousands in Thessaloniki.

Christianity has certainly been appropriated by the powerful, as all religion has been at one time or another; but it has also given voice to the powerless, and speaking out and subverting the very foundations of the social order.

As such, I don't very much see Christianity as particularly useful for morality or society--not if taken seriously. If taken seriously Christianity should be a threat to our standards of morality and the status quo of society.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

To Judaism? I don't. But Judaism isn't exactly the status quo in today's world, nor are Jews exactly the majority or the ones who maintain the power.

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So, somewhat similar, as would be my view. Not surprising since we share a common ancestry, so to speak.

I view Christianity as morally and socially subversive in that I think if one looks at the things Jesus says, or even the things Paul and the other writers of the New Testament said one sees a kind of moral, political and social inversive.

Morality, typically, is a top-down social system, what is fundamentally good in a moral system in society is that which perpetuates the system. To rock the moral fabric is to shake the society at its foundation. When Christians were arrested and sent before the court, the charges were always about how Christians were moral and social subversives. Seen as being a threat to Rome's social mores and traditional values. Christians were charged with atheism, with being enemies of the human race, with attacking traditional family values, and generally upsetting the basic social order of the Empire.

Even in Christian dominant societies, Christianity has still--when it is the voice of the least and the lesser--spoken truth to power. The language of Dr. Martin Luther King was the language of the New Testament, the language of Bonhoeffer and the Confessing Church again was the language of the Gospel (especially the Sermon on the Mount). When kings and emperors oppressed, it was usually the voice of the religious who spoke to them against their tyranny. The tradition of the role of the Holy Fool in Russia and the rest of the Orthodox world, for example. The examples of lone Christians standing firm against emperors (again, even Christian emperors) such as when St. Ambrose rebuked Theodosius and refused him entry to the church and ordered the emperor to repent in ash and sackcloth in imitation of King David after the emperor massacred thousands in Thessaloniki.

Christianity has certainly been appropriated by the powerful, as all religion has been at one time or another; but it has also given voice to the powerless, and speaking out and subverting the very foundations of the social order.

As such, I don't very much see Christianity as particularly useful for morality or society--not if taken seriously. If taken seriously Christianity should be a threat to our standards of morality and the status quo of society.

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A good summary. Thank you for your insight.

dfw69 said:

another good reason for God is .....we need his help from this wicked world.....

with all the science in medicine....where is the cure for cancer?

Cancer: The Forbidden Cures - YouTube

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Are you suggesting that because we do not have a cure for cancer, medical science is somehow not worth it?