What makes you so...

[Qyöt27]

I'm not confident I believe correctly. I was raised with the paranoia of a belief system that insisted your beliefs had to be perfectly lined up or you were pretty much hell hound. Thank God, I'm recovering from that garbage and have spent the past few years reevaluating a lot of things and I'm not worried about any kind of purity of belief because I'm comfortable with ambiguity and doubt right now.

And the funny thing is, in Matthew where Jesus describes the judgment of humanity he portrays himself judging people by their works and not their beliefs. I find that kind of funny considering the hysteria some Christians work themselves up to over the idea that works might in any way gain God's approval. I tend to think our faith and works are meant to be two parts of the whole even if sometimes we're stronger in one than another.

This is pretty much my take on it too. The obsessive focus you get in some circles about having to absolutely know or hold to every single correct belief is still a form of thinking in terms of works, as if it's some cosmic formula that requires you to line up all your ducks just right. Christ came, at least partially, to free us from that kind of burden. We were given certain responsibilities, and those responsibilities reflect things that come out of a life that's been transformed by grace, but to fully understand the depth of that, is also to learn and change by doing.

To walk in the spirit of what He taught is ultimately the purpose of what Christianity is. As you do so, you grow, you learn, and you experience that grace firsthand. Faith is the element of trust needed that underscores all of it. Salvation is not the goal - is it the end result one hopes for? Sure. But doing any of this just because 'you want to be saved', or in other words, you're only afraid of being punished, is little more than another bit of human selfishness dolled up to sound righteous. It's usually presented to children as being about salvation, but as adults we're expected to actually mature, and part of that maturation is realizing that the real thing(s) we should focus on is not what we have to do or believe to get a divine pardon (putting aside the obvious differences in soteriology that this topic can bring to the fore very quickly; the legal ideas of justification commonly found in most of Western Christianity, and particularly in Protestantism, don't reflect the frameworks the Early Church operated within as much as some like to make it seem).

 

[Socktastic]

Every human has flawed beliefs, a religion does not span thousands of years without them. You have those who believe what their manner is the one true way, those who wobble about it, and others who don't really care because even in a perfect system everyone will have slightly different variations. Unless you removed all individuality. Not too hard I guess, but rather immoral.

I have beliefs, some of them slot nicely into mainstream Christianity, some of them do not. I look to my own and know that they were cultivated through reading, listening and thinking. I believe in works being as important as faith, not for our salvation but as a show of our love for Him. I do not understand the mess about works and faith. They are connected, works are what you do when you have faith, not because you have to but because you are driven to do them. I understand not the "boo, boo, do not mention works, we are not saved through them" mindset. It's not a matter of being saved, it's a matter of doing what you are driven to do through faith.

Going off track. Back to original.

The problem with a religion that spreads across cultures and countries is that it takes on aspects of that culture. There are fundamentals that should flow through each of them, but there are differences in how it is expressed that are linked to the world those who believe grew up in.

On the "impossible to be saved" sentence: As with any big religion there are a number who may state that they are saved who in reality are not. Be it how they believe or the actions they take, not everyone who professes themselves Christian and speaks of their salvation shall be. It does not matter about counter arguments and differing visions, it's something deeper.

I shall edit this later, for I need to type more but if I do not go soon I shall break a promise. Interesting thread.

 

[SplendidTree]

The easiest way for me to answer, especially after almost literally dying multiple times: Faith. I just know in my heart and have faith. Because God's word says.

 

[Im_A]

Confident that you believe correctly?
How do you know?
There are so many counter arguments out there.

I don't worry if I am right in some universal absolute sense. Some will say my views are more rational, reasoned and others will call me a fool, .

The counter-arguments to my views, I dismiss right away. I am sure my counter-arguments to other people's views, they dismiss them right away. We both have our reasons why...the counters to counter.

So I find it more appropriate for me to be as honest as I can, to myself and myself alone, about the best way that I can perceive the existence that by chance that I am a part of. I have my reasons why I am at my views now, and that is that. Matters of absolute being 'correct' or 'incorrect' are really immaterial in the end.

I am at more conviction in my own views than I have ever been. I am not searching. The whole point in seeking is to find an end to the means that you are seeking what you are seeking for. If someone comes along and tells me I am wrong...I will either smile politely and walk away, or laugh in their face. I really do not care. Plus, I am not a boasting, egotistical man who goes around saying, or thinking he is so right and everyone else is so wrong. I have better people skills than that and a better moral/ethical outlook than that.

I also know that someday, my views could change. Not because of lack of credibility with my views now, but because...well I don't know why. I know it happened for me after 13 years of believing in Christianity and everyone that knew me in my days of faith and belief are still shocked to this day that I am no longer that person that they remember. All I do know is, life is not so predictable with views for many a people.

So the point to that part...why should I worry if I am correct or incorrect with my perception of reality? I have enough conviction in my own views, and can stand up for my views well enough to know that I don't need to worry about having absolute, universal conviction that I am correct. I have the conviction that is actually of use and importance...conviction for my own self.

One could say it is basically almost impossible to be saved because of it.

This part I cannot address because I don't believe human beings exist in a world of redemption vs. damnation.

 

[Nanopants]

Confident that you believe correctly?
How do you know?
There are so many counter arguments out there.

Experience. Faith is not blind, and it's amazing to see how God works. We might not be able to prove the things of God through conventional means, but God can prove Himself.

One could say it is basically almost impossible to be saved because of it.

Believing "correctly" isn't about having all of the right ideas in your head, it's about believing in the image of God, who is Christ.

 

[redblue22]

How do I know that I believe correctly? I'm not sure what that even means. Please explain.

 

[omanid]

What makes me so confident that I believe correctly is the fact that I see no other option...it's God...or God.
I have faith He'll lead me in the right direction. No other option.
I really can't help it. God chose me.

 

[trentlogain2]

i love that forum feature omanid. great verse too.

 

[Niels]

I've been convinced through personal experience, the character of the people who've shared their experiences with me, and evidence in the lives of others. That said, I'm only human. God knows that I'm not perfect. I'm not correct all the time. Although I do what I can, I have limitations. Thankfully, my salvation isn't an act of my will, but an act of God.

 

[Lord Of The Forest]

I have literally had the Spirit touch me, manifest him self to me when I asked him to.

But even that is not comforting

And that's not mystical?

 

[Sieben]

And that's not mystical?

mysticism usually has to do with the individual burning their emotions then they get some sort of sensation from that.

 

[redblue22]

nevermind.

 

[Lord Of The Forest]

mysticism usually has to do with the individual burning their emotions then they get some sort of sensation from that.

No.

mysticism |ˈmistəˌsizəm|
noun
1 belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
2 belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, esp. when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.

You were most likely having a private chat with the Lord when you asked Him to be manifest; that would be the contemplation bit, and Christianity itself requires self-surrender. Sounds like mysticism to me. Not in a bad way, by any means, but your account does sound quite identical to the dictionary definition.

If you have not already read it, I would recommend you read, or at least skim through portions of, The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a'Kempis; it challenged me on many levels, and was a a source of immense encouragement as well as reproof.

- - - - -

To the topic at hand. I think that most of what most people know is strictly trusting what others have said. As such, I suppose I take most things on faith. However, there is one incontrovertible truism in my heart: God does exist, and He sent His Son as the propitiation for my sins. The worldy-wise may seek Him only to disprove His existence, but they shall fail in their schemes.

On theological matters, I try not to be excessively dogmatic, as there is a great chance that most people are understanding a given passage incorrectly than the author was intending it; however, I also maintain an open mind that there are multiple acceptable interpretations of a given passage.

 

[Nanopants]

mysticism usually has to do with the individual burning their emotions then they get some sort of sensation from that.

Just out of curiosity, would you have lectured the disciples on the Emmaus road? I honestly don't know what you're talking about necessarily but, there is an emotional response to the presence of the Holy Spirit. As the scriptures say:

O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him. -Ps 34:8

 

[Sieben]

No.

mysticism |ˈmistəˌsizəm|
noun
1 belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
2 belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, esp. when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies.

You were most likely having a private chat with the Lord when you asked Him to be manifest; that would be the contemplation bit, and Christianity itself requires self-surrender. Sounds like mysticism to me. Not in a bad way, by any means, but your account does sound quite identical to the dictionary definition.

If you have not already read it, I would recommend you read, or at least skim through portions of, The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a'Kempis; it challenged me on many levels, and was a a source of immense encouragement as well as reproof.

- - - - -

To the topic at hand. I think that most of what most people know is strictly trusting what others have said. As such, I suppose I take most things on faith. However, there is one incontrovertible truism in my heart: God does exist, and He sent His Son as the propitiation for my sins. The worldy-wise may seek Him only to disprove His existence, but they shall fail in their schemes.

On theological matters, I try not to be excessively dogmatic, as there is a great chance that most people are understanding a given passage incorrectly than the author was intending it; however, I also maintain an open mind that there are multiple acceptable interpretations of a given passage.

all i know is that he says he will remove our heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh, and he will give us a fountain inside of us. that is the experience i have, three times when i asked, once when i believed to my salvation, once when i was on my bed, once when i was going to the hospital, once when i was down, and uh.. i guess i have more than 4 times, but regardless i said that doesnt comfort me. simply knowing i have had those, do not comfort me. I am not relying on experiences.

as far as mysticism goes, i dont know. i am against it

 

[Sieben]

Just out of curiosity, would you have lectured the disciples on the Emmaus road? I honestly don't know what you're talking about necessarily but, there is an emotional response to the presence of the Holy Spirit. As the scriptures say:

O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him. -Ps 34:8

probably

 

[Nanopants]

probably

Lol. I don't know where you got your information on mysticism, but did you know that the early Church Fathers, including the Apostles, were mystics? Not only that but did you know that it was through christian mysticism that arianism was refuted and the Nicene creed was formulated? Would you have lectured them as well?

FYI- christian mysticism isn't all about "burning" emotions (though like I said before there are emotional responses to the presence of the Holy Spirit). It's about cultivating a transformative faith through which we may approach the mind of Christ and receive the wisdom of God.

 

[MacFall]

as far as mysticism goes, i dont know. i am against it

...Mysticism, in the context of Christianity, is the belief that we can talk to God in the spirit (as opposed to with our minds or flesh). How can you be against that? Isn't that an essential part of the Christian faith?

 

[Sieben]

Lol. I don't know where you got your information on mysticism, but did you know that the early Church Fathers, including the Apostles, were mystics? Not only that but did you know that it was through christian mysticism that arianism was refuted and the Nicene creed was formulated? Would you have lectured them as well?

FYI- christian mysticism isn't all about "burning" emotions (though like I said before there are emotional responses to the presence of the Holy Spirit). It's about cultivating a transformative faith through which we may approach the mind of Christ and receive the wisdom of God.

I disagree

 

[Sieben]

...Mysticism, in the context of Christianity, is the belief that we can talk to God in the spirit (as opposed to with our minds or flesh). How can you be against that? Isn't that an essential part of the Christian faith?

im against people like... relying on tongues as proof of salvation, relying on feelings they got, experiences they got like anything.

I am even against my own experiences even if I know what i experienced is true