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What makes something sinful?
- Thread starter Sayre
- Start date
Plenty disagree with things that appear obvious to others. Unfortunately!
As above, this isn't always clear, unfortunately. Would you kill to save your family? Steal to feed your family?
If it comes as a decree from God I would have greater confidence that it is wrong. There are so many grey areas I am unsure of.
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I'm not sure I agree, still. Why do you differentiate between His desire and His will? I have a suspicion this boils down to semantics, unless you are a universalist. Do you think all get saved in the end?
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That which is not done by faith is sin. I can steal by faith if it is required to love God or love others. Doesn't this boil down to the letter of the law v's the spirit of the law?
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You Sayre can steal by faith? I actually read of lazarus dieing because he refeused to sin. The Spirit of God is to love. Faith is of the Spirit of God and the Spirit is love, gentleness, kindness etc...
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~Anastasia~
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Just wanted to interject here. I did a quick look at the lexicons, because I was curious myself.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
The word here that is translated God's wish is boulomai, which means to will, or to wish, even very strongly determine.
However, pretty much every other case speaking of God's will in the New Testament uses theléma, which we also translate as will.
But I do think it's clear that there is a difference between the two. I don't have tools at hand to do a better comparison than that. But I would say that yes, there's a difference between God's will that all should be saved, and God's will in just about all the other verses. (Such as 1 Thess 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is Gods will for you in Christ Jesus.)
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I'm not sure we are disagreeing... are we?
If God is love, and the Spirit is love... and you are in a situation where, in order to love someone, you have to steal... then don't you need to violate the law of the land in order to obey the Spirit? I can't see that being a sin.
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I'm still not sure about this.
I desire that my daughter is healthy and that she doesn't take medications.
However, if she were ill, my primary desire is already inaccessible, and void, and my desire would be to give her medication.
Neither of my wills have changed. Right?
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The Spirit of God, Love, won't ever require me to steal or go against any of it's rules.
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~Anastasia~
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Hmmmmm ..... I'm not so sure that's different (really) from what God did.
I can't argue that He would have desired there never be a fall. Perhaps that's true, but that's human understanding, and I could be wrong.
So in that case, maybe you can say that Christ is the medication in your analogy.
However ... if your daughter is small, I expect you would force her to swallow the medication even if she didn't want to have it, and that is not the way God deals with us.
Perhaps imagine that your daughter is an adult, and has some philosophical reason for not wanting to take the medicine you offer, and so can refuse it. That might make the analogy closer.
But if you're trying to consider the difference between God's desire for us to come to repentance, and the will of God in how his followers should behave (offhand that is the "will" that I remember being expressed by the second term), well, the two are obviously different. As I said, I don't have the tools at hand to understand how - I only have access to basic lexicons here.
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~Anastasia~
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Isleof,
First please understand I'm not arguing with you or trying to put you on the spot. And I do NOT agree with moral relativism and am not trying to make a case for it.
However, I'm curious about your answer to a question, if I may?
Imagine that there is a corrupt government in place, and its purpose is to persecute Christians (or you can substitute anything here). Say that your children are in your home, and they are Christians. For some reason, the government has not identified you as one, but they do want to persecute your children. They knock at the door, and your children are hidden in your home.
Do you tell them the truth about where your children are hiding? Or do you lie to them? What do you think the Spirit of God would lead you to do?
(As I said, I'm not trying to bait you, I'm just curious because of what you said?)
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Yes, the Holy Bible makes it very clear. you aren;t lost, perhaps confused, but certainly not lost.
The first sin of the Bible is a lie. All sin is a lie.
...rejoiceth not in iniquity, rejoiceth in the truth."
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Hmmmmm ..... I'm not so sure that's different (really) from what God did.
I can't argue that He would have desired there never be a fall. Perhaps that's true, but that's human understanding, and I could be wrong.
So in that case, maybe you can say that Christ is the medication in your analogy.
However ... if your daughter is small, I expect you would force her to swallow the medication even if she didn't want to have it, and that is not the way God deals with us.
Perhaps imagine that your daughter is an adult, and has some philosophical reason for not wanting to take the medicine you offer, and so can refuse it. That might make the analogy closer.
But if you're trying to consider the difference between God's desire for us to come to repentance, and the will of God in how his followers should behave (offhand that is the "will" that I remember being expressed by the second term), well, the two are obviously different. As I said, I don't have the tools at hand to understand how - I only have access to basic lexicons here.
Ok - I will continue to chew on this.. Does God have two wills?
God's Spirit won't ask you to violate God's Spirit. But God's Spirit may ask you to violate the law of the land.
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How so? What is "the law of the land" anyway? Does that mean Im free to steal from others and kill them as I please, cause all of the sudden my blood is rushing and Im almost convinced that it is ok for me to do so.
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Nope it doesn't mean that at all. It means that where there is a conflict between God's law, and the earthly government, that God's law gets priority.
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N
Nanopants
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You act like you have no conscience of your own. What's the deal with that?
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So in other words, Gods law wont ever ask me to violate the law of land.
The law of the land isn't mans law. Gods law is already all. If a law doesnt line up with Gods law, it is considered a human law and is already against Gods law if it doesn't agree with Gods law.
Let us take into consideration that God created land and all that is in it. If a human said that "the law of the land" is a rule against God, that human lied and isn't of truth.
Every individual will defeat liars by proclaiming Gods truth, because God is truth.
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I think God's law (love) often does ask you to violate the earthly government.
I would break into a shop and steal food to feed a starving person if the situation warranted it. I would also turn up at the cop shop the next day to explain why and hand myself in.
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~Anastasia~
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Daniel was thrown into the lion's den for violating the law of the land. The three Hebrews thrown into the furnace were as well.
Their conscience before God led them to follow God, rather than the law.
This was repeated in the New Testament as well.
Acts 5
27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, 28 saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
(Eta: By the way, isleof, I am not picking on you or trying to bait you. It takes me a while to find the Scriptures and get them in the post, and I'm usually several posts behind by the time I check it over and hit "enter")
Their conscience before God led them to follow God, rather than the law.
This was repeated in the New Testament as well.
Acts 5
27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, 28 saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
(Eta: By the way, isleof, I am not picking on you or trying to bait you. It takes me a while to find the Scriptures and get them in the post, and I'm usually several posts behind by the time I check it over and hit "enter")
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