What makes something sinful?

[Willie T]

I don't want to get off topic here, but in regards to "dead works", which is a sin, there are many people I talk to at church who sort of brag and declare they have taken on a social issue, such as homelessness but you can kind of tell they weren't really called into their position. I'm not saying they shouldn't help the homeless, but if a person is not called by God, they shouldn't go.

Everyone wants to lead, no one wants to follow sort of mentality going on. Sinful because you're doing your own thing and not God's.

I'd like to agree, but I can't. The homeless ministry I help in is one I can guarantee you I am NOT called to be in.

But there's a problem. They have all sorts of women who get into it, but very few men. And they specifically asked for men to help some time ago when I started. Few responded.

I did, and I stick with it, even though I admit I do have a problem with bums... which, unfortunately, 80 - 90% of the homeless in our city are. Maybe it's precisely BECAUSE I have little empathy for people who won't work that I have wound up there, but I really don't know. I just know there is a need, and even though I'm not feeling very "led" to work with this group, the team needs me.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

That really doesn't answer my question thought.

What makes pre marital sex wrong?
It is wrong because it is a sin.
What makes it a sin?

What attribute of it? Is anything that destroys fellowship with God a sin? Even those things that in another context have no consequence? This sounds like consequentialism.

God has revealed his nature in the bible. Anything that he has told us is a sin, is in fact, a sin.

 

[Nanopants]

I'm wondering if the bible is clear on what exactly makes something sinful?

If you answer, please make sure your answer is clear about what attribute of an action makes it sinful.

If lawlessness is sinful, then why is lawlessness wrong?

Sin is lawlessness, and that which is not of faith is sin (lawlessness). Law doesn't protect one from committing lawlessness, as would be the case when having one's neighbor stoned for a minor offense.

If sex before marriage is sinful, what property / attribute of sex before marriage causes the sin?

This is fiction. Marriage existed before government-issued licenses to marry, and governments cannot alter reality.

Is it because something has value and that value was reduced? ie. is purity of value, and sex makes purity less pure hence there is less value?

Sex, of itself, has never been impure. The problem is unfaithfulness, both toward people, and to God, which we can commit by imagining evil of that which never was. If there is no unfaithfulness committed in the act, then there is no impurity, no adultery, no abandonment, and no exploitation. However, a government issued license isn't going to get in the way of that, unless you allow a legal fiction to distort your view of reality.

What some may mean by "sex before marriage" is sex without faithfulness (i.e. you want sex but you have no intent of being faithful toward that other emotional person who might get hurt). And that would not be right.

 

[RDKirk]

I did, and I stick with it, even though I admit I do have a problem with bums... which, unfortunately, 80 - 90% of the homeless in our city are. Maybe it's precisely BECAUSE I have little empathy for people who won't work that I have wound up there, but I really don't know. I just know there is a need, and even though I'm not feeling very "led" to work with this group, the team needs me.

Well, think for a moment of Stephen and Philip. They were both clearly called and gifted to be evangelists...they even had signs and wonders following them.

But there was also a need for someone to make sure the Greek/Christian widows got their fair share of the food, so Stephen and Philip also accepted the job of managing the food line. Was that a "dead work" on their parts?

 

[RDKirk]

That really doesn't answer my question thought.

What makes pre marital sex wrong?
It is wrong because it is a sin.
What makes it a sin?

What attribute of it? Is anything that destroys fellowship with God a sin?

No, sin is not an attribute of the act itself. Even though we can point out acts that everyone would argue are inherently sinful, "sin" is not an attribute of the action, but an attribute of the moral necessity of the action.

Sin is doing that which is not the will of God for you to do at a given time and place. The concept of "sin" is a special kind of "wrong action" that is a relevant term only within a divine-command deontological framework. The divine command makes it a moral necessity completely apart from any inherent attributes of the action itself.

Even those things that in another context have no consequence? This sounds like consequentialism.

No, the issue is not the consequence of the act. Failing to obey the command has consequences, but the consequence of the act that is manifest by the failure to obey the command is irrelevant.

For instance: God commands that no one touches the Ark of the Covenant unless he is the properly authorized person first made ceremonially clean. The Ark is jostled during a movement and starts to fall to the ground; an unauthorized person grabs it and stops it from falling. Then that man is struck dead.

The consequence of his grabbing the Ark was that it did not strike the ground. He was punished not because of the consequence of the act, but for the failure to obey the divine command.

 

[Sayre]

No, sin is not an attribute of the act itself. Even though we can point out acts that everyone would argue are inherently sinful, "sin" is not an attribute of the action, but an attribute of the moral necessity of the action.

Sin is doing that which is not the will of God for you to do at a given time and place. The concept of "sin" is a special kind of "wrong action" that is a relevant term only within a divine-command deontological framework. The divine command makes it a moral necessity completely apart from any inherent attributes of the action itself.



No, the issue is not the consequence of the act. Failing to obey the command has consequences, but the consequence of the act that is manifest by the failure to obey the command is irrelevant.

For instance: God commands that no one touches the Ark of the Covenant unless he is the properly authorized person first made ceremonially clean. The Ark is jostled during a movement and starts to fall to the ground; an unauthorized person grabs it and stops it from falling. Then that man is struck dead.

The consequence of his grabbing the Ark was that it did not strike the ground. He was punished not because of the consequence of the act, but for the failure to obey the divine command.

Brilliant, thank you.

How then do you know the will of God in any circumstance?

 

[RDKirk]

Brilliant, thank you.

How then do you know the will of God in any circumstance?

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. -- Romans 12

This comes before Paul's discussion in Chapter 14 of "disputable matters" -- those things that one person with a renewed mind sees differently from another person who also has a renewed mind.

Two people with renewed minds--each correctly discerning the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God for himself--can come to differing conclusions of the action he should take...and both can be correct.

 

[Sayre]

OK... obvious question... how do you renew your mind?

Thanks for this, by the way.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm wondering if the bible is clear on what exactly makes something sinful?

If you answer, please make sure your answer is clear about what attribute of an action makes it sinful.

If lawlessness is sinful, then why is lawlessness wrong?

If sex before marriage is sinful, what property / attribute of sex before marriage causes the sin?

Is it because something has value and that value was reduced? ie. is purity of value, and sex makes purity less pure hence there is less value?

I'm lost.

I've always had the impression that 'sin' is a dysfunction of the human mind which tends to undermine God's plans and purposes for His creation, as well as contending with His authority as author.

 

[Jake255]

God's Will, not His plan.

God's will is that all be saved, and that we not sin. Clearly, that isn't going to happen. The fall should teach us that He doesn't always get what He wants.

.

This is actually inaccurate. It is God's desire that all be saved, if it was His Will - then all would be saved. God's will does not change nor is it thwarted.

The fall did not change His will nor did it change His plan. God was not taken by surprise by what Adam did, He is all knowing.

 

[isleof]

I'm wondering if the bible is clear on what exactly makes something sinful?

If you answer, please make sure your answer is clear about what attribute of an action makes it sinful.

Do not kill, do not steal. Clear enough for you?

 

[isleof]

If lawlessness is sinful, then why is lawlessness wrong?

If lawlessness is wrong, who said it is wrong?

If you encourage it, should it be done to you as well?

 

[Sayre]

If lawlessness is wrong, who said it is wrong?

If you encourage it, should it be done to you as well?

I'm not sure what you mean. Of course we shouldn't encourage people to do that which is wrong. I'm just trying to boil this down to it's core - regress it all the way back to the root. What makes something wrong?

 

[isleof]

I'm not sure what you mean. Of course we shouldn't encourage people to do that which is wrong. I'm just trying to boil this down to it's core - regress it all the way back to the root. What makes something wrong?

Is stealing your husband wrong?
Is killing you wrong?

Who disagrees with the obvious?

 

[Jake255]

I'm not sure what you mean. Of course we shouldn't encourage people to do that which is wrong. I'm just trying to boil this down to it's core - regress it all the way back to the root. What makes something wrong?

If you want to go all the way back to the root of what is wrong, then it forces you to see that whatever is against God and the mark He has set, His standard, is wrong.

If it misses the standard of Christ, then it's wrong.

 

[RDKirk]

This is actually inaccurate. It is God's desire that all be saved, if it was His Will - then all would be saved. God's will does not change nor is it thwarted.

The fall did not change His will nor did it change His plan. God was not taken by surprise by what Adam did, He is all knowing.

In other words, this is still God's Plan A.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm not sure what you mean. Of course we shouldn't encourage people to do that which is wrong. I'm just trying to boil this down to it's core - regress it all the way back to the root. What makes something wrong?

You know, if I understand what you're looking for, it occurs to me that it is impossible to give you an answer.

If there were a simple way to say "here is sin: it is _______ ________ _______ (fill in the blanks), my guess is that at some point God would have said that to us. He didn't, so I don't think what you are looking for exists in words.

I am also of the mind that God wants us to depend on Him, which is another reason why some things are not so simple to understand.

I don't mean to disappoint you, just if I understand you, as I said, I don't think there is going to be a way to make a simple distillation that will answer every case.

If there is, it is the one I believe I repeated in an earlier post that Jesus said ... the first commandment is to love God, the second is to love others, and all the law hangs upon that.

 

[Jake255]

In other words, this is still God's Plan A.

Absolutely!

I know there are people who disagree, but knowing what I know about God, there can be no other way.

 

[RDKirk]

Is stealing your husband wrong?
Is killing you wrong?

Who disagrees with the obvious?

Either one can be rationalized as right by several different philosophies.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm not sure what you mean. Of course we shouldn't encourage people to do that which is wrong. I'm just trying to boil this down to it's core - regress it all the way back to the root. What makes something wrong?

Sayre, I'm going to go with Oliver Barclay's idea that what makes something wrong between us and God is that: 1) God is our Creator and knows how He 'built us,' and, 2) when we deviate from His intentional designs, we are effectively, although not conclusively, attempting to sabotage those designs. That's what makes sin to be sin.

If you want to read Barclay's essay, you can find it in:

Readings in Christian Ethics by David K. Clark and Robert V. Rakestraw, (1994).

Peace