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What Makes Creationism a Valid Scientific Alternative?

SkyWriting

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That is my conclusion as well, but others may disagree.I would also agree that creationism would be a good fit for a World Religion course, or even as part of discussions in an Intro to Philosophy course.However, science it is not.

There is very good reason to include both historical religion ideas and other philosophies into science training. Science is based on a philosophy that the world is knowable and understandable and can be analysed. That's a Christian idea you're welcome.

You may say "Duh" but this is a very NEW IDEA for humanity. It's worth getting an education about the field you have chosen to study including it's history. As you can tell from this forum, many people have had training in science, and are clueless about conflicting ideas. This makes them hostile to anyone who doesn't think like they do. Being hostile to people who have differing views is not good science.
:)
 
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SkyWriting

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Important to them, yes. I think we can all agree that what is important to one person may not hold the same importance to another person.Also, creationist organizations are actively persuing legislation that would include creationism in the public school science classroom. Obviously, there are spiritual folk who do think that science is important.The actions of some creationists do not match up to your claims. If this were so, why are they actively trying to change the curriculum in the science classroom? Obviously, they see science as being superior to faith, otherwise what would be the point? If faith is superior to scientific knowledge then what is taught in Sunday School should overcome anything taught in science classes. Even more, we see science curing illnesses that the faithful tried to cure with prayer for centuries, and failed. No amount of praying eradicated smallpox, but science did. Faith does not put men on the Moon, or probes on Mars. Faith does not develop life saving antibiotics, nor discover the mechanisms behind chronic diseases.

Nothing, anywhere, has ever been accomplished without faith.

There is some part of your brain somewhere that is getting signals. It doesn't know anything about them or what they mean. But it acts on faith that the signal is valid and has some higher purpose than itself. So it sends out a signal.....and your heart beats one more time.
 
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Loudmouth

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Nothing, anywhere, has ever been accomplished without faith.

Things are accomplished without religious faith every day.

There is some part of your brain somewhere that is getting signals. It doesn't know anything about them or what they mean. But it acts on faith that the signal is valid and has some higher purpose than itself. So it sends out a signal.....and your heart beats one more time.

That's not religious faith.
 
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And-U-Say

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Although this is for LoudMouth I thought I would put my 2 cents in as well.

There is very good reason to include both historical religion ideas and other philosophies into science training. Science is based on a philosophy that the world is knowable and understandable and can be analysed. That's a Christian idea you're welcome.

No, this is not a christian idea. One of the more dismaying things about christianity is its subtle philosophy that it can steal and then proclaim ownership of just about any idea. You see it where christians claim that the constitution is a christian document. You see it with christmas and the claim that Jesus is the reason for the season (and he is not). And you see it here with your claim that Science is somehow predicated on christianity. It is most definitely not. Indeed, Science is the antithesis of christianity. More below.

You may say "Duh" but this is a very NEW IDEA for humanity.
Seeing as how humanity is some 100,000 years old, just about every idea is new to humanity.


It's worth getting an education about the field you have chosen to study including it's history. As you can tell from this forum, many people have had training in science, and are clueless about conflicting ideas.
See, right here. I can tell that you do not have any significant training in the Sciences. In my undergraduate courses in Chemistry and Physics there were many hours spent on the history of what we were learning. We learned about phlogiston and alchemy. For you to say that this history is not covered in Science classes only indicates that you have not taken them. You may wish to actually know something about a topic before you make such comments.

Second, we learned that Science did not move forward until enough people could remove superstition from their thinking. Definitely the opposite of christianity. Take Alchemy. Alchemy involved chants to invoke the proper supernatural assistance to make a chemical reaction happen properly. It wasn't until these superstitious chants were removed from consideration that Chemistry could move forward, because otherwise odd results were just blamed on incorrect or poorly done incantations.

And that is true of just about all the Sciences. Until the superstitions could be removed, it was impossible to move forward. And christianity is all about the superstition. In both the old and new testament there is a reliance on astrology. Genesis says the planets were put in the sky as signs. The Magi used astrology to find Jesus, so the Bible says. Christian reliance on superstition had to be removed to go forward. At best you could say that some christians actually realized this and were able to shed at least some of their superstition to make progress.


This makes them hostile to anyone who doesn't think like they do.
No, we are hostile to people who do not know what they are talking about and refuse to bring evidence and reason to the discussion. You keep missing that point.

Being hostile to people who have differing views is not good science.
:)
Nope, it is not about that. See above. It is NOT about what you say. It is about what you bring along with it, which is nothing.
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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How would you use science to figure out how Santa's reindeer fly?
I can't ... science is too myopic.

HOWEVER, in one of the Christmas specials, it was pointed out that Kris Kringle's reindeer required the ability to fly by the application of "magic pixie dust;" to allow Kris and his friends to escape Herr Burgermeister Meisterburger.

(If my memory serves me correctly.)

Also, QV please:
Would someone please explain to me, from an evolutionary perspective, how a Rangifur tarandus can acquire the ability to emit electromagnetic radition in the 620-750 nm range from its rhinarium.
 
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CabVet

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I can't ... science is too myopic.

HOWEVER, in one of the Christmas specials, it was pointed out that Kris Kringle's reindeer required the ability to fly by the application of "magic pixie dust;" to allow Kris and his friends to escape Herr Burgermeister Meisterburger.

(If my memory serves me correctly.)

And by "myopic" you mean it can't study things that don't exist?
 
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Loudmouth

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There is very good reason to include both historical religion ideas and other philosophies into science training. Science is based on a philosophy that the world is knowable and understandable and can be analysed. That's a Christian idea you're welcome.

Science is not based on christianity, nor any christian ideas. Christianity relies on the supernatural. Where is the supernatural in science? Christianity is based on "the mystery" and on faith. It is not based on the scientific method, nor was the scientific method derived from christianity.

On top of that, just look at how creationist groups describe science. They describe it as going against God, an evil materialistic philosophy, and the product of Satan. We are told by creationists on this very forum that the world is not knowable and understandable through analysis, but can only be understood through faith in a literal Bible. That is the VERY OPPOSITE OF SCIENCE.

And yes, the history of science is taught. Have you learned about it at all? Perhaps you may have learned about Galileo who dared to propose an idea that contradicted christian ideas?

You may say "Duh" but this is a very NEW IDEA for humanity. It's worth getting an education about the field you have chosen to study including it's history. As you can tell from this forum, many people have had training in science, and are clueless about conflicting ideas. This makes them hostile to anyone who doesn't think like they do. Being hostile to people who have differing views is not good science.
:)

Am I hostile to bad science? Absolutely. Why shouldn't I be? Do I challenge bad philosophies? Absolutely. Everyone should.

Can you tell us why scientists should consider bad science and bad philosophies? Or are you a post modernist?
 
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AV1611VET

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What a joke. Santa's flying reindeer don't exist. That's why science is not used to study them. It is quite sad that you can't figure this out.
As I have stated before, science has no right even saying there's no teapot in orbit around the sun.
 
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Loudmouth

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As I have stated before, science has no right even saying there's no teapot in orbit around the sun.

Science doesn't say there is no teapot. Science says there is no compelling evidence for one. Science says Teapot theory lacks evidence and is therefore not taken seriously. If Teapotists want to be taken seriously, then they need to do the research and produce that evidence.

What is so hard to figure out here?
 
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AV1611VET

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OldWiseGuy

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Science doesn't say there is no teapot. Science says there is no compelling evidence for one. Science says Teapot theory lacks evidence and is therefore not taken seriously. If Teapotists want to be taken seriously, then they need to do the research and produce that evidence.

What is so hard to figure out here?

Seems to me that both sides are trying to bust the other's chops. They should both just mind their own business.
 
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SkyWriting

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Science is not based on christianity, nor any christian ideas. Christianity relies on the supernatural. Where is the supernatural in science? Christianity is based on "the mystery" and on faith. It is not based on the scientific method, nor was the scientific method derived from christianity.On top of that, just look at how creationist groups describe science. They describe it as going against God, an evil materialistic philosophy, and the product of Satan. We are told by creationists on this very forum that the world is not knowable and understandable through analysis, but can only be understood through faith in a literal Bible. That is the VERY OPPOSITE OF SCIENCE. And yes, the history of science is taught. Have you learned about it at all? Perhaps you may have learned about Galileo who dared to propose an idea that contradicted christian ideas? Am I hostile to bad science? Absolutely. Why shouldn't I be? Do I challenge bad philosophies? Absolutely. Everyone should.Can you tell us why scientists should consider bad science and bad philosophies? Or are you a post modernist?

I feel that people should learn about all other philosophies of science without the bias of "good" and "bad" to screw up their learning.

Such knowledge is useful for interacting with other people without getting hostile and confrontational. :thumbsup:
 
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