• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What makes Christianity special?

Status
Not open for further replies.

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
Stevevw said:
Umm we could go on with all these new verses you keep introducing. We will end up going through the whole bible the rate where going. This is humans speaking to each other not God. They are discussing something between themselves. God is not asking for a show here, it is all about a difference between them about sacrifice ect. This is going to happen with people.

You say Yahweh doesn't act like a magician, doing tricks when we ask him... then I show you a place in the bible where he does just that. It's not that hard.

I have sexual thoughts like anyone its a natural thing. Its what you do with those thoughts that is important to a christian. If a sexual though comes to me as a christian i will try not to allow those thoughts to take root (pardon the pun). It is holding onto them and then feeding them and turning it into a lustful thought that will take it to another level. It is feeding those thoughts so that you will want to act on them.

But when you are trusting in God and the spirit of God lives in your heart and mind you can easliy fight off the temptation of lust. Like i said the two dont go together. So I am filled with a love of people and want to help others. I see their suffering and I see what the things of the flesh can do and what effects they can have on others. So i am wanting to fight this and help others to find that same thing of love and beauty in their lives.

Since I have become a christian I can say that things like lust and greed and selfish desires and lack of control in my life are gone. I have become a new person in Jesus and am filled with new thoughts of love and wanting to help others. It is not a denial but as I know what I was like as a non Christian and i was out there doing all the same things. I have been married , I have two beautiful kids and I have had girlfriends along the way. At the moment I have no one and I am happy with that. I dont have a strong need to go and get laid and I am happy to save myself for the right person if and when I choose to settle down with someone.

You become sexually aroused by women you find appealing, just like every other male.

"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

You commit lots of adultery for someone who is not governed by "the flesh".

I dont know, I thought you were the scholar. Didn't you say you have done a uni course in this or have a degree in bible study. I have to look each one up especially the old testament. Its a big book the bible and a person wont know every single thing in detail. I am also studying for a diploma in community services at the moment so I have to dedicate time to that as well. I enjoy the banter but dont want to do a small degree in bible studies otherwise I would have chosen to do that. But I will have a look and get back when i can.

El Shaddai means "El of the Mountain". It makes perfect sense when your realize that according to Canaanite religion, El lived on top of a mountain.

Well then whats the problem. The writer is saying that EL and Yahweh are the same God. You were saying they were different Gods. God revealed himself throughout time through different names. Some emphasized certain qualities and strengths he had. But it was all the same God.

Nope. You're quoting from contradictionsinthebible.com .... I don't think you were astute enough to realize what he is saying. From the same site you referenced:

"Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is one of those rare biblical passages that seemingly preserves a vestige of an earlier period in proto-Israelite religion where El and Yahweh were still depicted as separate deities: Yahweh was merely one of the gods of El’s council! This tradition undeniably comes from older Canaanite lore."

So as we see, you will even cite references that go against what you believe, thinking the whole time that they agree with you. You're just surfing the web for support, not actually trying to figure out what the truth is.

But then neither have you. You have given your view and the way you interperet things but I can show another 1 or 2 ways the same thing is also interpreted by others. Some of your interpretations like the one with Christ and the sword is totally wrong and can easily be proven so. You seem to either take a literal understanding or twist it to something that you have already decided within yourself that is your own personal beliefs.

I can find interpretations of many things which are ridiculously flawed... thus far I've shown why your interpretations fit the bill.

Like I said before there were different people writing each gospel. Most line up. Johns gospel has focused on a different aspect of things to begin with and is not the same as the other ones in a number of ways. He seems to be focusing on the spiritual meanings. So he may have mentioned certain things that others didn't focus on. But even if we say that he may have misheard something and put it in does that really mean that everything that is written is wrong. They all agree on the fact that Christ was the son of God, crucified on that day. They agree he died and rose from the dead 3 days later. This is the important thing.

If several people come and give account of an event and one gets some of the detail wrong does that mean it didn't happen when everyone is saying it did.You are focusing on the small difference when there is massive similarities. You are throwing it all out because of the small difference but not accepting any of it when it does line up. So you are being harsh with the credible parts that support each other by not giving any credit for lining up with each other. Then putting a big magnification on any small difference so that it out weights the larger consistent verses. Like i say your judgement is that its all guilty before going on trial. You have already decided its wrong.

Well, at least you've come to the point where you accept the gospels get some stuff wrong.

Well that is something that we will have to agree to disagree. If you think that you can say that because of your personal experience tells you you are right is going to convince someone that their personal experience is wrong then that is not going to happen. For everything you say i can say the same. I have also spoken in front of people and come from a place where i was saved from death. So my experience is from real life and it has changed me for the better when nothing else worked. How is that wrong and why would i want it any other way and not continue on the same when it has been so good so far. I would be crazy to let go of God and go back into that life of hell.

There are other options besides living a bankrupt, dangerous life and believing in a Canaanite god of the mountain.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
No. I still do not see any implication of rape.

Israelites "take" unmarried pagan women does not imply rape. Instead, from other commandments of God, if one does take a woman, one will have significant responsibility to her. And the process of "taking" is also quite rigorous.

Whatever was happening, you should not use the word "rape".

Why argue about it? As you made clear in othrr threads, rape is a moral thing to do if your god says so anyway...

Why do you even bother with discussions on morality in the bible if your stance on morality is limitef to tje psychopathic "if god allows/commands/condones it, it's fine..."

Why do pretend as if we can reason about it? There's no reasoning allowed in your world view anyway, since your god of choice just dictates it.
 
Upvote 0

Huntun

Ho Chih Zen
Apr 30, 2014
209
5
45
✟22,881.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
One of the many problems with the "It's moral if God orders it" theory is that it often ends up meaning "It's moral if an anonymous bronze age religious author claims that God ordered it." There is never any real evidence provided that the order actually came from God. Just because it happens to be in a revered compilation of religious texts doesn't necessarily mean the claim is accurate.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,133
1,787
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟324,120.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You're believing in a book that talks about ancient Canaanite gods. You believe a theology that differs from it, but tries to make itself so by using parts of the bible that agree with it. It's a delusion, one that I participated in for a long time. While it has some good things about it, and it can make you feel good to think the creator of the universe loves you, it's better to know the truth. It's liberating.
Well maybe you have moved onto another form of belief for whatever reason. Maybe its a move towards non belief as there are many similarities you have with non believers. But then non believers would say that you believe in fairy tales just because you believe in a God who created things. So each has their beliefs based on their personal experience. Mine spans over a 30 plus year period so I think i know what is real and what is not. I have a lot of experience to draw upon. I have believe and not believed and I know which is best and what works for me. It works in my life and makes me a better person. It answers the questions I had been looking for like a perfect fitting key in the key hole of life. I have tried just about every thing there is out there in life to compare and for me there is no other way.

The universe is not suspended. We're moving at over 100,000 miles per hour. It's gravity, not "God's power". Yeesh...
We are looking into a lot of things to do with the universe. Quantum physics is changing the way we are seeing things. We havnt fully understood gravity and the laws that we have used to explain things.
But now we are moving into another topic which is quite involved again.

Because some of us would like to know the truth, and to use the truth to make the world a better place. Some of us think that delusions aren't a positive thing.
What is truth. Who says that mans truth is any better than what Christians claim. Christ says he is the truth and offers life. But not just ant life but an abundant one. So he is saying that he can give the best and complete life and it is what man has been looking for.

There are 101 ideas about truth and the answer to a better life promoted out in the world. Theres a new one every 2nd week. There was one i seen recently where someone has created a software that they are selling that tell you how to live a better life. But what it tells you is things like to help others. So heaps of money has been spent to tell a person what many other philosophies have already said including Christianity. But this is it its the latest fad. There is a constant stream of how to get a better life. Exercise regimes, the latest diets, the latest meditations, relaxations, health farms, lucky charms. Hollywood celebs promoting their own products and everyone jumping in on it. Government research and surveys to find the best solutions to deal with problems. Many organizations saying they have the answers.

But they only last a short time and then fade away or fail and the next one comes. Man thinks he is a God and has all the answers. But we have proved time and time again we are incapable of being able to find that peace and solution to life. This world truth is corruptible and compromised and can never stand up. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and he and God offers the only true way to life and salvation.

As I said, the gospels attribute good things and bad things to Jesus. Sometimes he's all about peace, and other times he's bringing swords.
Thats what you keep saying. But i have explained what that verse meant and this has been proven. It can be backed with other verse which show Christ is for peace and that what is meant is to do with Christians and non Christians having a division between them. This will increase towards the end time until Christians will be ridiculed and persecuted. But you keep holding onto the God of hate and are not willing to even consider a God of love.

The government isn't upon Jesus' shoulder.
This was a prophesy from isiah looking into the future. Not only did he prophesise about Christ being born as the promised messiah but also about the end times when Gods Kingdom would come. Jesus has been made king of kings and lord of lords and there are many verses in the bible that talk about Jesus being the head of the church and reining over us in the kingdom of God. So when Gods kingdom is established Jesus will be the ruler and the governance of the entire world will be on him. It wont be just the government of a country but the entire world.

The kingdom of heaven
Luke 1:31 - 1:33, John 18:36, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 11:15, Mark 9:1,
Daniel 7:14
And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Daniel 7.13-14#footnote3peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Why in the world should I have only two choices which you give me? What utter nonsense. I choose the correct answer - the bible does not tell about the creator, but instead about El and Yahweh, two Canaanite gods out of seventy or so.
I'm talking about a God of hate or a God of love. You seem to pull all the verses out that are showing a God of hate. If there are many Gods like you say and they have many things attributed to them the only quality I am seeing you promote is a God that hates.

Again, you are contorting in every possible way to make the bibles' statements all be a unified message. They aren't.
This is what you say. I can show you many verses that show Christ promoting peace and showing love. Feeding the hungry and teaching love and helping others. Can you show me any verses that really paint Jesus as a person who is wanting to take up a sword and cause people to kill each other or one that is hating people. This verse is well know to have the meaning I have shown. I dont have to make it unified it is unified. The message is simple and clear. That be believing in Christ you will find peace and everlasting Life. You will find forgiveness for your sins and be guilt free before God. Jesus loved us and gave his life for us. This is not the taking of life this is the giving of life.

Division = bad. Unity = good.
I dont understand what you are meaning here. The persecution of Christians wont be from Christians doing anything wrong. It will be simple because they choose to believe in Jesus. Just as Jesus was innocently tried and crucified. Just as the early Christians were also persecuted.

Btw, I reject the Jesus you think you serve, yet I do not hate him, nor do I hate you. There's another false statement out of the bible for ya'.
Where is the bible verse you are quoting. You have every right to believe what you will and so do I.

Mark and Matthew:
" My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Luke:
" Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."

John:
" It is finished."

How are the literal last words of Jesus based on perspective??? Good grief, open your eyes.
The writers could have chosen to emphasize the words that they have chosen. Jesus could have said all the above words for all we know. But you have chosen to assume they are contradictory in the first place. But if 4 people came to you and said that something happened and they all said the same thing about that event but got a small part of what was said different from each other would you automatically assume that they were all lying about the event itself. This event was not just talked about by the gospels as well. It is mentioned in other books and by other historians.

But like I said we are looking back on something and trying to determine what may have happened. If you are coming from the point that the whole story is a fake then you will nit pick it and look for things wrong. But this doesn't mean they are how you want to make out. We dont know and cant really say either way. But it is possible that each person heard different things from their stand point. John was closer to the cross with Mary so he may have heard the actual very last words It is finished and the others didn't. Luke may have been a bit closer and heard what he heard. It makes sense as the words that Mark and matthew heard My God why have you forsaken me is something that Jesus would have yelled out and those standing further back would hears.
Bible Contradictions Answered

Well, now we're down to the holy spirit giving you the same goosebumps others have at moments of excitement. Spiffy.

You're not crazy. You're just like everybody else you uses their inner dialogue and coincidences around them to pretend a spirit is talking to you. Taadaa - you're not mad or dishonest and there's a perfectly logical explanation.

Well your the one calling the shots and putting the feelings onto me. You seem to know a lot about how I act and who I am. But its almost condescending that you label me with a certain state and you dont know me. At least your not calling me a liar or loony like most will.

To be honest I have heard it all before over many years. Theres no imaginary voices or coincidences. There is an active and real thing happening. It is beyond the material and physical and mental and emotional. It can be distinguished apart from that and produces real results that no other way can do. Besides who cares if its coincidence its sure is the best continuous ones that are working so well that I could have. While many others try to find the answers I already have found them and they are working just fine thank you very much.
 
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
Stevevw said:
Well maybe you have moved onto another form of belief for whatever reason. Maybe its a move towards non belief as there are many similarities you have with non believers. But then non believers would say that you believe in fairy tales just because you believe in a God who created things. So each has their beliefs based on their personal experience. Mine spans over a 30 plus year period so I think i know what is real and what is not. I have a lot of experience to draw upon. I have believe and not believed and I know which is best and what works for me. It works in my life and makes me a better person. It answers the questions I had been looking for like a perfect fitting key in the key hole of life. I have tried just about every thing there is out there in life to compare and for me there is no other way.

So if your belief is only based on what is "best and works" for you, then why defend it in any other manner?

We are looking into a lot of things to do with the universe. Quantum physics is changing the way we are seeing things. We havnt fully understood gravity and the laws that we have used to explain things.
But now we are moving into another topic which is quite involved again.

Quantum physics is not going to say that God holds the celestial bodies in place... which is what you asserted.

What is truth. Who says that mans truth is any better than what Christians claim. Christ says he is the truth and offers life. But not just ant life but an abundant one. So he is saying that he can give the best and complete life and it is what man has been looking for.

There are 101 ideas about truth and the answer to a better life promoted out in the world. Theres a new one every 2nd week. There was one i seen recently where someone has created a software that they are selling that tell you how to live a better life. But what it tells you is things like to help others. So heaps of money has been spent to tell a person what many other philosophies have already said including Christianity. But this is it its the latest fad. There is a constant stream of how to get a better life. Exercise regimes, the latest diets, the latest meditations, relaxations, health farms, lucky charms. Hollywood celebs promoting their own products and everyone jumping in on it. Government research and surveys to find the best solutions to deal with problems. Many organizations saying they have the answers.

But they only last a short time and then fade away or fail and the next one comes. Man thinks he is a God and has all the answers. But we have proved time and time again we are incapable of being able to find that peace and solution to life. This world truth is corruptible and compromised and can never stand up. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and he and God offers the only true way to life and salvation.

Truth is what is accurate.

Thats what you keep saying. But i have explained what that verse meant and this has been proven. It can be backed with other verse which show Christ is for peace and that what is meant is to do with Christians and non Christians having a division between them. This will increase towards the end time until Christians will be ridiculed and persecuted. But you keep holding onto the God of hate and are not willing to even consider a God of love.

When I respond to you that your explanation flies in the face of the text, you didn't prove anything.

This was a prophesy from isiah looking into the future. Not only did he prophesise about Christ being born as the promised messiah but also about the end times when Gods Kingdom would come. Jesus has been made king of kings and lord of lords and there are many verses in the bible that talk about Jesus being the head of the church and reining over us in the kingdom of God. So when Gods kingdom is established Jesus will be the ruler and the governance of the entire world will be on him. It wont be just the government of a country but the entire world.

Okay, then let's hold off on saying the prophecy was about him until he actually does that.

The kingdom of heaven
Luke 1:31 - 1:33, John 18:36, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 11:15, Mark 9:1,
Daniel 7:14
And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Yes, the New Testament authors want to line Jesus up with prophecies in the Old Testament to validate their theology.

I'm talking about a God of hate or a God of love. You seem to pull all the verses out that are showing a God of hate. If there are many Gods like you say and they have many things attributed to them the only quality I am seeing you promote is a God that hates.

I most certainly do not promote a god of hate. I believe there to be a creator, but I see no evidence of a god of hate. I do believe that the god(s) of the bible is/are of hate.

This is what you say. I can show you many verses that show Christ promoting peace and showing love. Feeding the hungry and teaching love and helping others. Can you show me any verses that really paint Jesus as a person who is wanting to take up a sword and cause people to kill each other or one that is hating people. This verse is well know to have the meaning I have shown. I dont have to make it unified it is unified. The message is simple and clear. That be believing in Christ you will find peace and everlasting Life. You will find forgiveness for your sins and be guilt free before God. Jesus loved us and gave his life for us. This is not the taking of life this is the giving of life.

I'm aware that you have good verses for Jesus, just like I have good ones. However, when I show bad ones, you're going to do anything you can to make the text not say what the text says.

I dont understand what you are meaning here. The persecution of Christians wont be from Christians doing anything wrong. It will be simple because they choose to believe in Jesus. Just as Jesus was innocently tried and crucified. Just as the early Christians were also persecuted.

Christians have a long history of doing things wrong.

The writers could have chosen to emphasize the words that they have chosen. Jesus could have said all the above words for all we know. But you have chosen to assume they are contradictory in the first place. But if 4 people came to you and said that something happened and they all said the same thing about that event but got a small part of what was said different from each other would you automatically assume that they were all lying about the event itself. This event was not just talked about by the gospels as well. It is mentioned in other books and by other historians.

But like I said we are looking back on something and trying to determine what may have happened. If you are coming from the point that the whole story is a fake then you will nit pick it and look for things wrong. But this doesn't mean they are how you want to make out. We dont know and cant really say either way. But it is possible that each person heard different things from their stand point. John was closer to the cross with Mary so he may have heard the actual very last words It is finished and the others didn't. Luke may have been a bit closer and heard what he heard. It makes sense as the words that Mark and matthew heard My God why have you forsaken me is something that Jesus would have yelled out and those standing further back would hears.

Hey, as long as you know the gospels don't match up, good enough for me.

Well your the one calling the shots and putting the feelings onto me. You seem to know a lot about how I act and who I am. But its almost condescending that you label me with a certain state and you dont know me. At least your not calling me a liar or loony like most will.

To be honest I have heard it all before over many years. Theres no imaginary voices or coincidences. There is an active and real thing happening. It is beyond the material and physical and mental and emotional. It can be distinguished apart from that and produces real results that no other way can do. Besides who cares if its coincidence its sure is the best continuous ones that are working so well that I could have. While many others try to find the answers I already have found them and they are working just fine thank you very much.

Glad your faith works for you, sorry it isn't based on reality.
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
It's actually offensive. Paul calls it "the offense of the gospel" and "the offense of the cross". The message of the cross is good news for sinners and losers but it's offensive to strong, morally good people who have no need for God.

Wow, a believer claiming that some people actually have no need for god?
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,133
1,787
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟324,120.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You say Yahweh doesn't act like a magician, doing tricks when we ask him... then I show you a place in the bible where he does just that. It's not that hard.
[FONT=&quot]Some have asked, "Why don't we do things like this now? Why can't we set up a stage in the park and appeal to the Lord to do some miraculous sign, making believers out of everyone who sees?" The answer to that question is found in Elijah's prayer. He said,
1Kgs. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]18:36[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "...I have done all these things at Thy word."
God had directed Elijah to do this. This wasn't some wild plan that Elijah came up with and asked God to jump on board. There is a big difference between being an instrument in the plan of God and making God an instrument in our plans. When we expect God to do tricks like a magician, we could expect an answer like Jesus gave:
Matt. 12:38-39 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign..."
God has certainly proven Himself with miraculous signs and wonders. But it is always at His discretion, not our petition.
Study Notes:1Kings 18:1-46

[/FONT]
You become sexually aroused by women you find appealing, just like every other male.

"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

You commit lots of adultery for someone who is not governed by "the flesh".
[FONT=&quot]No that is what you are trying to make me out to be. That is what you want me to be. You are turning what is a natural desire that comes from beauty and tenderness in seeing the opposite sex to lustful thoughts which will cross a line and not care to take other peoples feelings into consideration. It is all about self serving gratification.

The actual sin that Christ was talking about was if someone lusts after another mans wife he is committing adultery with her in his heart. But notice how Jesus says lusts after a woman. That is the difference. Yes we can all have a thought cross our minds. But that is a short lived thing. Its when it is held and dwelt upon and pursued that it becomes lust. We have a natural desire to want to have a mate and reproduce. It is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex.

But when it goes beyond this into crossing lines and dwelling on this when you know that the women is married or you are feeding that lustful desire that you want to act on it. You are feeding your fleshly carnal desires and cultivating these thoughts. Because by feeding into this then you are making the need stronger that you want to act on it in some way. It is all about selfish desires and satisfying self. The extreme end of course is what we see in society so often with relationships breakdowns, pornography, teen sex, unwanted pregnancies, emotional hangups and sex crimes.

[/FONT]
El Shaddai means "El of the Mountain". It makes perfect sense when your realize that according to Canaanite religion, El lived on top of a mountain.
No that is not the meaning.
Pronounced el shad-dY', this is the best-known of the "El" compound names. It means The All-Sufficient One and is usually translated in English Bibles as "God Almighty", "the Almighty" or "Almighty God". The exact derivation of the word "shaddai" is not known. According to my research, all of the following words have been used at various times in the development of the name:

  • The Hebrew word "dai" (meaning "sheds forth", "pours out", or "to heap benefits") suggests provision, sustenance, and blessing. Thus, God is the All-Sufficient, All-Bountiful El. (Genesis 42:24-25)
  • The Hebrew word "shad" or "shadayim" (meaning "breast" or "breasts") occurs 24 times as "Shaddai" and signifies One who nourishes, supplies, and satisfies (Isaiah 60:16, 66:10-13). Combined with the word for God, "El", it then becomes the "One mighty to nourish, satisfy, and supply".
  • The Hebrew root word "shadad" (meaning "to overpower" or "to destroy") suggests absolute power. While Elohim is the God who creates, in the name "Shaddai" God reveals Himself as the God who compels nature to do what is contrary to itself. He is able to triumph over every obstacle and all opposition; He is able to subdue all things to Himself.
  • An Akkadian word "Šadu" (meaning "mountain"), suggests great strength.
All of these names — whether individually or collectively — naturally would be intensified when combined with "El" and would refer to YHWH as the One who mightily nourishes, satisfies, protects, and supplies His people. El Shaddai is our All-Sufficient Sustainer. It is God as "El" who helps, and it is God as "Shaddai" who abundantly blesses with all manner of blessings.
- See more at: The Names & Attributes of God>: El Shaddai

Nope. You're quoting from contradictionsinthebible.com .... I don't think you were astute enough to realize what he is saying. From the same site you referenced:

"Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is one of those rare biblical passages that seemingly preserves a vestige of an earlier period in proto-Israelite religion where El and Yahweh were still depicted as separate deities: Yahweh was merely one of the gods of El’s council! This tradition undeniably comes from older Canaanite lore."

So as we see, you will even cite references that go against what you believe, thinking the whole time that they agree with you. You're just surfing the web for support, not actually trying to figure out what the truth is.
[FONT=&quot]I don’t think you read it properly.

This assimilation between Yahweh and El, or El into Yahweh, is present in much of the Priestly material as well. In fact, the Priestly source largely advocates this assimilation.

[/FONT]
I can find interpretations of many things which are ridiculously flawed... thus far I've shown why your interpretations fit the bill.
[FONT=&quot]I must admit I have never debated a person who believes in God like they dont believe in God.

What is your God and who is your God. I am beginning to feel like Isiah trying to deal with the God Baal.

[/FONT]
Well, at least you've come to the point where you accept the gospels get some stuff wrong.



There are other options besides living a bankrupt, dangerous life and believing in a Canaanite god of the mountain.[/quote]
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,133
1,787
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟324,120.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You say Yahweh doesn't act like a magician, doing tricks when we ask him... then I show you a place in the bible where he does just that. It's not that hard.
[FONT=&quot]Some have asked, "Why don't we do things like this now? Why can't we set up a stage in the park and appeal to the Lord to do some miraculous sign, making believers out of everyone who sees?" The answer to that question is found in Elijah's prayer. He said,
1Kgs. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]18:36[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "...I have done all these things at Thy word."
God had directed Elijah to do this. This wasn't some wild plan that Elijah came up with and asked God to jump on board. There is a big difference between being an instrument in the plan of God and making God an instrument in our plans. When we expect God to do tricks like a magician, we could expect an answer like Jesus gave:
Matt. 12:38-39 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign..."
God has certainly proven Himself with miraculous signs and wonders. But it is always at His discretion, not our petition.
Study Notes:1Kings 18:1-46

[/FONT]
You become sexually aroused by women you find appealing, just like every other male.
"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
You commit lots of adultery for someone who is not governed by "the flesh".
[FONT=&quot]No that is what you are trying to make me out to be. That is what you want me to be. You are turning what is a natural desire that comes from beauty and tenderness in seeing the opposite sex to lustful thoughts which will cross a line and not care to take other peoples feelings into consideration. It is all about self serving gratification.

The actual sin that Christ was talking about was if someone lusts after another mans wife he is committing adultery with her in his heart. But notice how Jesus says lusts after a woman. That is the difference. Yes we can all have a thought cross our minds. But that is a short lived thing. Its when it is held and dwelt upon and pursued that it becomes lust. We have a natural desire to want to have a mate and reproduce. It is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex.

But when it goes beyond this into crossing lines and dwelling on this when you know that the women is married or you are feeding that lustful desire that you want to act on it. You are feeding your fleshly carnal desires and cultivating these thoughts. Because by feeding into this then you are making the need stronger that you want to act on it in some way. It is all about selfish desires and satisfying self. The extreme end of course is what we see in society so often with relationships breakdowns, pornography, teen sex, unwanted pregnancies, emotional hangups and sex crimes.

[/FONT]
El Shaddai means "El of the Mountain". It makes perfect sense when your realize that according to Canaanite religion, El lived on top of a mountain.
No that is not the meaning.
Pronounced el shad-dY', this is the best-known of the "El" compound names. It means The All-Sufficient One and is usually translated in English Bibles as "God Almighty", "the Almighty" or "Almighty God". The exact derivation of the word "shaddai" is not known. According to my research, all of the following words have been used at various times in the development of the name:

  • The Hebrew word "dai" (meaning "sheds forth", "pours out", or "to heap benefits") suggests provision, sustenance, and blessing. Thus, God is the All-Sufficient, All-Bountiful El. (Genesis 42:24-25)
  • The Hebrew word "shad" or "shadayim" (meaning "breast" or "breasts") occurs 24 times as "Shaddai" and signifies One who nourishes, supplies, and satisfies (Isaiah 60:16, 66:10-13). Combined with the word for God, "El", it then becomes the "One mighty to nourish, satisfy, and supply".
  • The Hebrew root word "shadad" (meaning "to overpower" or "to destroy") suggests absolute power. While Elohim is the God who creates, in the name "Shaddai" God reveals Himself as the God who compels nature to do what is contrary to itself. He is able to triumph over every obstacle and all opposition; He is able to subdue all things to Himself.
  • An Akkadian word "Šadu" (meaning "mountain"), suggests great strength.
All of these names — whether individually or collectively — naturally would be intensified when combined with "El" and would refer to YHWH as the One who mightily nourishes, satisfies, protects, and supplies His people. El Shaddai is our All-Sufficient Sustainer. It is God as "El" who helps, and it is God as "Shaddai" who abundantly blesses with all manner of blessings.
- See more at: The Names & Attributes of God>: El Shaddai

Nope. You're quoting from contradictionsinthebible.com .... I don't think you were astute enough to realize what he is saying. From the same site you referenced:
"Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is one of those rare biblical passages that seemingly preserves a vestige of an earlier period in proto-Israelite religion where El and Yahweh were still depicted as separate deities: Yahweh was merely one of the gods of El’s council! This tradition undeniably comes from older Canaanite lore."
So as we see, you will even cite references that go against what you believe, thinking the whole time that they agree with you. You're just surfing the web for support, not actually trying to figure out what the truth is.
[FONT=&quot]I don’t think you read it properly.

This assimilation between Yahweh and El, or El into Yahweh, is present in much of the Priestly material as well. In fact, the Priestly source largely advocates this assimilation.

[/FONT]
I can find interpretations of many things which are ridiculously flawed... thus far I've shown why your interpretations fit the bill.
[FONT=&quot]I must admit I have never debated a person who believes in God like they dont believe in God.

What is your God and who is your God. I am beginning to feel like Isiah trying to deal with the God Baal. A God that couldn't be known and had nothing to offer.

[/FONT]
Well, at least you've come to the point where you accept the gospels get some stuff wrong.
[FONT=&quot]It is not wrong in the sense that the event didn't happen in the first place. Its like you want to take out any human realness out of the bible. You expect it all to be perfectly matching word for word and put together like it was orchestrated to ensure it all lined up and was consistent. That is what you would expect from something that was made up. This shows the realness of the bible and that it was humans who have individual view points that put it together. If it was something that religious people wanted to use as a book to promote their God dont you think they would have been smart enough to make sure it was all consistent and didn't have these things so that it wouldn't come back on them. This just shows that it is exactly what was written by the people who know of the events from their perspective.

There is no evidence to show that what is written is false or made up. In fact it is more logical to say that this is from people who had seen these events or had spoken to people who had seen these events. What you neglect to do is look at the amount of collaborating evidence which far outweighs any small inconsistencies you want to make out which dont have any evidence for being untrue either apart from your speculation that it must be wrong because there are some small inconsistencies.[/FONT]

There are other options besides living a bankrupt, dangerous life and believing in a Canaanite god of the mountain.
But that description is exactly showing what you feel about it. It is not my experience one bit. In fact it is the opposite. I don’t have a bankrupt life, that is what I had before I came to God. Now I have a full and happy life that has peace and serenity in it. I have more meaning in my life than ever before.



Look at the amount of people who are depressed and committing suicide in ever increasing numbers. Look at the amount of people on drugs or homeless or looking for something in life. I can think of a whole bunch of other issues that need someone to be helping with because they have bankrupt or dangerous lives. I dont know why you want to spend so much time trying to convince a person who is already having to good life that he really isn't according to you and is deluding himself. Why dont you help the many that are deluding themselves in society that really need help there are millions of them who are really living a bankrupt and dangerous life besides me.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
stevevw said:
Some have asked, "Why don't we do things like this now? Why can't we set up a stage in the park and appeal to the Lord to do some miraculous sign, making believers out of everyone who sees?" The answer to that question is found in Elijah's prayer. He said,
1Kgs. 18:36 "...I have done all these things at Thy word."
God had directed Elijah to do this. This wasn't some wild plan that Elijah came up with and asked God to jump on board. There is a big difference between being an instrument in the plan of God and making God an instrument in our plans. When we expect God to do tricks like a magician, we could expect an answer like Jesus gave:
Matt. 12:38-39 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign..."
God has certainly proven Himself with miraculous signs and wonders. But it is always at His discretion, not our petition.
Study Notes:1Kings 18:1-46

"Then Gideon said to God, “If You will deliver Israel by my hand, as You said, I will put a fleece of wool here on the threshing floor. If dew is only on the fleece, and all the ground is dry, I will know that You will deliver Israel by my strength, as You said.” And that is what happened. When he got up early in the morning, he squeezed the fleece and wrung dew out of it, filling a bowl with water.

Gideon then said to God, “Don’t be angry with me; let me speak one more time. Please allow me to make one more test with the fleece. Let it remain dry, and the dew be all over the ground.” That night God did as Gideon requested: only the fleece was dry, and dew was all over the ground."


Judges 6:36-40

I guess your reference needs to go back to the drawing board.

No that is what you are trying to make me out to be. That is what you want me to be. You are turning what is a natural desire that comes from beauty and tenderness in seeing the opposite sex to lustful thoughts which will cross a line and not care to take other peoples feelings into consideration. It is all about self serving gratification.

The actual sin that Christ was talking about was if someone lusts after another mans wife he is committing adultery with her in his heart. But notice how Jesus says lusts after a woman. That is the difference. Yes we can all have a thought cross our minds. But that is a short lived thing. Its when it is held and dwelt upon and pursued that it becomes lust. We have a natural desire to want to have a mate and reproduce. It is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex.

But when it goes beyond this into crossing lines and dwelling on this when you know that the women is married or you are feeding that lustful desire that you want to act on it. You are feeding your fleshly carnal desires and cultivating these thoughts. Because by feeding into this then you are making the need stronger that you want to act on it in some way. It is all about selfish desires and satisfying self. The extreme end of course is what we see in society so often with relationships breakdowns, pornography, teen sex, unwanted pregnancies, emotional hangups and sex crimes.

All of this is you trying to explain something very simple that Jesus is reported to have said. The greek word translated "lust" simply means "desire," so if you desire a woman, you have sinned.

Epithumia

No that is not the meaning.
Pronounced el shad-dY', this is the best-known of the "El" compound names. It means The All-Sufficient One and is usually translated in English Bibles as "God Almighty", "the Almighty" or "Almighty God". The exact derivation of the word "shaddai" is not known. According to my research, all of the following words have been used at various times in the development of the name:
The Hebrew word "dai" (meaning "sheds forth", "pours out", or "to heap benefits") suggests provision, sustenance, and blessing. Thus, God is the All-Sufficient, All-Bountiful El. (Genesis 42:24-25)
The Hebrew word "shad" or "shadayim" (meaning "breast" or "breasts") occurs 24 times as "Shaddai" and signifies One who nourishes, supplies, and satisfies (Isaiah 60:16, 66:10-13). Combined with the word for God, "El", it then becomes the "One mighty to nourish, satisfy, and supply".
The Hebrew root word "shadad" (meaning "to overpower" or "to destroy") suggests absolute power. While Elohim is the God who creates, in the name "Shaddai" God reveals Himself as the God who compels nature to do what is contrary to itself. He is able to triumph over every obstacle and all opposition; He is able to subdue all things to Himself.
An Akkadian word "Šadu" (meaning "mountain"), suggests great strength.
All of these names — whether individually or collectively — naturally would be intensified when combined with "El" and would refer to YHWH as the One who mightily nourishes, satisfies, protects, and supplies His people. El Shaddai is our All-Sufficient Sustainer. It is God as "El" who helps, and it is God as "Shaddai" who abundantly blesses with all manner of blessings.
- See more at: The Names & Attributes of God>: El Shaddai

I'm unimpressed with your "myredeemerlives" reference and its scholarship. Here are more researched opinions:

"This important title, often found in connection with name ‘El, is found in several biblical passages in reference to Israel’s God (e.g., Gen.17.1; 28.3; 35.11;49.25; Ex. 6.3; Num. 24.4, 16; Ps. 68.15; Job 8.3,5, etc.). [1] ‘El-Shaddai is P’s favored title for God before the revelation of the divine name to Moses. But what is its meaning, and what is its historical derivation? Traditionally, following the LXX (i.e., the Septuagint, or ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible), which uses pantokrator, and the Vulgate (a Latin translation of the Bible by St. Jerome), which uses omnipotens, the term has often been rendered in English translation as “Almighty,” but it is now generally considered that this interpretation is fallacious, and possibly stems from a similar sounding Hebrew root $-d-d, meaning “to destroy.” Some modern scholars have suggested several other possibilities, such as connecting it with the Hebrew word $ad, meaning breast. However, since ‘El-Shaddai was a male diety, this seems somewhat unlikely. Another suggestion is that it is related to the Hebrew word sadeh, meaning “field.” However, this root uses a different sibilant (sin) in its root than does Shaddai (shin).
The most widely accepted scholarly view is that ‘El-Shaddai means “El, the mountain one,” relating shaddai to an Akkadian word $adum, “mountain.” Besides being a strong cognate, there are also several other historical factors that seem to lead to this conclusion. For instance, F.M. Cross has noted a Hurrian hymn which specifically describes El as “the one of the mountain.” The word is also used to describe the Amorite deity (Ilu-)Amurru, whose consort is A$ratum, the counterpart of the Canaanite high god ‘El’s consort Athirat (Asherah). Moreover, the Deir ‘Alla instription uses $dyn in parallel with ‘ihn, in reference to the gods of the assembly. Finally, ‘El and his divine assembly met on a mountain.

Given all of these factors then, ‘El-Shaddai very plausibly means “El, the mountain one,” and is most probably originally a divine title or epithet derived from the Canaanite high god ‘El."

-- http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/el-shaddai/

"El Shaddai. To Abraham God appears as God Almighty, El Shaddai (Gen 17:1). The designation "Shaddai," which some think is the oldest of the divine names in the Bible, occurs forty-eight times, thirty-one of which are in Job.
The traditional rendering "God Almighty" is debated. A consensus of sorts holds that "shaddai" is to be traced, not to the Hebrew, but to an Accadian word that means "mountain" so that the expression produces a meaning like, "'El, the One of the mountains." If so, El Shaddai highlights God's invincible power.

Or, the name may point to his symbolic dwelling. The juxtaposition of El Shaddai and El 'Elyon (Num 24:16; Psalm 91:1) may suggest that El Shaddai is a God who is chief in the heavenly council, whose residence was sometimes broadly associated with mountains (Hab 3:3)."

-- Bible study notes on ALMIGHTY from biblereferenceguide.com

"The term is usually explained as a cognate of the Akkadian word sadu, "mountain," but not in the sense that 'El Shaddai would mean "G-d the Rock" (cf. zur, "Rock," an epithet of G-d, e.g., Deuteronomy 32:4,30,37). Rather, 'El Shaddai would mean "'El-of-the-Mountain," i.e., of the cosmic mountain, the abode of 'El; for the Patriarchs the term would mean "the G-d of Heaven."

-- The Jewish Encyclopedia

Your reference, on the other hand, listed the most accepted meaning last with this tiny description:

"An Akkadian word "Šadu" (meaning "mountain"), suggests great strength."

In reality, the word "shaddai" does not indicate "great strength," it literally means "of/from the mountain." Other Canaanite gods had this same title (Rabu for one).

I don’t think you read it properly.

This assimilation between Yahweh and El, or El into Yahweh, is present in much of the Priestly material as well. In fact, the Priestly source largely advocates this assimilation.

I'm quite familiar with the website. The author, Dr. Steve DiMattei, is saying that the priestly author(s) tried to assimilate (mix together) El and Yahweh when they added their material to the Hebrew bible.

I must admit I have never debated a person who believes in God like they dont believe in God.

What is your God and who is your God. I am beginning to feel like Isiah trying to deal with the God Baal.

Well, your god is one or two ancient, bronze age deities in the Canaanite pantheon. The God I recognize to exist is the Creator of the Cosmos, the Architect, the inventor of physics, the First Cause.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,133
1,787
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟324,120.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well, your god is one or two ancient, bronze age deities in the Canaanite pantheon. The God I recognize to exist is the Creator of the Cosmos, the Architect, the inventor of physics, the First Cause.

And thats it. Thats all you know about your God. Is he a person or a force. Does he love or is he just some inanimate object that is existing somewhere in the distance. It sounds more like a cross between a creator God and a scientific explanation for life and the universe. Not quite God and not quite a scientific.

If your God created the universe and was the architect then it indicates an intelligence. But there is no other quality to him like love. It sounds more like a machine. You are alluding to a creator which means he also created all the qualities we see and feel. Yet this God cannot have these qualities himself. If we can have relations with each other and have a sense of self then surely this God would know this as well. After all he created everything. Or did he just set it on its way and is oblivious to it all or just isnt bothered about whats going on in his creation.
 
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
Stevevw said:
And thats it. Thats all you know about your God. Is he a person or a force. Does he love or is he just some inanimate object that is existing somewhere in the distance. It sounds more like a cross between a creator God and a scientific explanation for life and the universe. Not quite God and not quite a scientific.

You believe in the existence of a specific combination of bronze-age, Canaanite gods known as El and Yahweh. This combination which you worship does not hold a monopoly on the term "God." I do not pretend to know all of the details of the Creator, nor do you; I just recognize that the Creator is not this:

El:
3860297634_b8854fed29.jpg


Yahweh:
Zeus_Yahweh.jpg


If your God created the universe and was the architect then it indicates an intelligence.

Not necessarily, but I lean in that direction.

But there is no other quality to him like love. It sounds more like a machine.

A machine has parts... I doubt the Original Cause does.

You are alluding to a creator which means he also created all the qualities we see and feel.

Evolution has led to your brain and your brain creates all the qualities you see and feel.

Yet this God cannot have these qualities himself.

I'm not persuaded either way.

If we can have relations with each other and have a sense of self then surely this God would know this as well. After all he created everything. Or did he just set it on its way and is oblivious to it all or just isnt bothered about whats going on in his creation.

I'm not privy as to the Creator's omniscience or lack thereof, nor the involvement it has in the multi/universe.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,133
1,787
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟324,120.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You believe in the existence of a specific combination of bronze-age, Canaanite gods known as El and Yahweh. This combination which you worship does not hold a monopoly on the term "God." I do not pretend to know all of the details of the Creator, nor do you; I just recognize that the Creator is not this.
As far as I understand there were Gods that were known by the name of El who were worshiped by others. These have been mixed up and confused with the God of the Israelites. There are many names for God in the old testament and he reveals himself over time by those different names. But I am not a scholar on old testament language so I can only rely on others who have studied this.
Jewish Beliefs About God | Reasonable Faith
THE MANY NAMES OF GOD

Not necessarily, but I lean in that direction.
So if you lean towards God having intelligence then that would also indicate a mind. If there is a mind then there must be some entity. Or is it like a large brain in a sphere that sits somewhere in the void of space.

A machine has parts... I doubt the Original Cause does.
Once again you are acknowledging a God with substance. So is it animal, vegetable or mineral. To me A God is an entity. If it is responsible for everything we see then it also knows about it and is aware of everything. That includes love, language, friendship and all the emotions we experience. This gives God more of a meaning than being a cause like its some sort of law without ant reason.

Evolution has led to your brain and your brain creates all the qualities you see and feel.
So you believe in a sort of Theistic evolution.

I'm not persuaded either way.
Your not persuaded either way or you are not sure. It doesnt make sense that a God who is powerful enough to create everything we experience would not be able to know these things himself. All that we see and experience would be from the actual creator of it all. They all had to be prototyped by Him in the first place to come into existence. Otherwise there would be things that this God would know and be in control of. So if he can know these things then he is more than a cause of a distant thing that caused everything to come into existence.

I'm not privy as to the Creator's omniscience or lack thereof, nor the involvement it has in the multi/universe.
You sure dont know much about your God. Why even bother having Him. Every God that is in existence has known qualities about them. It seems so vague that it is almost no existent.
 
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
stevevw said:
As far as I understand there were Gods that were known by the name of El who were worshiped by others. These have been mixed up and confused with the God of the Israelites. There are many names for God in the old testament and he reveals himself over time by those different names. But I am not a scholar on old testament language so I can only rely on others who have studied this.
Jewish Beliefs About God | Reasonable Faith
THE MANY NAMES OF GOD

It is remarkable to me that if you are not a scholar and you have to rely on others who have studied the issue, that you choose only to look at sources which agree with what you want.

El (chief god in Canaanite religion) is declared to be Yahweh (son of El in Canaanite religion) at the burning bush. This is lost on English readers since El is often translated simply as "God" while "Yahweh" is translated as "LORD".

But how do we know that El is a specific god and not just a term for "god"? In Genesis 33:20 Jacob builds an altar to "’el ’elohe yišra’el" ("El, god of Isra'el)". There is no mistaking it - Jacob is building an altar to the head of the Canaanite pantheon, El. We see further evidence that El and Yahweh were separate gods, later assimilated into one, when we read the following in Deu 32:

"When the Most High (’elyôn) gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated humanity, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of divine beings. For Yahweh’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage."

The text here says that El has assigned the borders for the nations (obviously untrue), and set the number of those nations based on the number of divine beings (obviously untrue). One of those divine beings, Yahweh, is allotted the descendants of Jacob.

So if you lean towards God having intelligence then that would also indicate a mind. If there is a mind then there must be some entity. Or is it like a large brain in a sphere that sits somewhere in the void of space.

I am not going to conjecture about the nature of something outside our universe which may operate on very different rules.

Once again you are acknowledging a God with substance. So is it animal, vegetable or mineral. To me A God is an entity. If it is responsible for everything we see then it also knows about it and is aware of everything. That includes love, language, friendship and all the emotions we experience. This gives God more of a meaning than being a cause like its some sort of law without ant reason.

I doubt you could have a discussion with me about physics in this universe, little alone a conversation about physics of a multiverse. Why then would I want to delve into what potentially could constitute the Original Cause? There is no answer at this time, so there is no point.

So you believe in a sort of Theistic evolution.

No, not at all.

Your not persuaded either way or you are not sure. It doesnt make sense that a God who is powerful enough to create everything we experience would not be able to know these things himself. All that we see and experience would be from the actual creator of it all. They all had to be prototyped by Him in the first place to come into existence. Otherwise there would be things that this God would know and be in control of. So if he can know these things then he is more than a cause of a distant thing that caused everything to come into existence.

I find this entire conversation elementary and silly. There are no tools for understanding what an un-perceivable creative force might be like, and I am not interested in the least.

You sure dont know much about your God. Why even bother having Him. Every God that is in existence has known qualities about them. It seems so vague that it is almost no existent.

I don't pick reality, I just live in it. I buy into the Cosmological Argument, and I do not think the idea of a multiverse evolving various physics in universe bubbles is adequate.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,133
1,787
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟324,120.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
"Then Gideon said to God, “If You will deliver Israel by my hand, as You said, I will put a fleece of wool here on the threshing floor. If dew is only on the fleece, and all the ground is dry, I will know that You will deliver Israel by my strength, as You said.” And that is what happened. When he got up early in the morning, he squeezed the fleece and wrung dew out of it, filling a bowl with water.

Gideon then said to God, “Don’t be angry with me; let me speak one more time. Please allow me to make one more test with the fleece. Let it remain dry, and the dew be all over the ground.” That night God did as Gideon requested: only the fleece was dry, and dew was all over the ground."


Judges 6:36-40

I guess your reference needs to go back to the drawing board.
No it doesn't. You keep pulling out passages and verses to try and pin something on believers or God that will support your accusations. In this case that God demands a show or that its OK to test God.

What you dont do is read the entire story and put it into context but pull out a small section that suits what you want to imply which is totally out of context. Gideon is asked by god to fight the Midianites who were coming to challenge Israel. Gideon was afraid and didn't really want to do it. He was a bit of a wimp and asked God for a sign that God would be with him when he went into battle. He pushed his luck and thats why he said to God to not be angry when he asked the 2nd time with the fleece test.

Yes he was weak in his belief at that time as he had already seen and heard God but want extra signs to be given reassurance that God would be with him in the battles. He didn't class himself as a warrior and was a bit scared so he tested God and didn't trust him. But this wasn't a test to prove God and test him in a way that would show God up and make God prove himself by lowering his majesty. This was already a believer who had a weak moment and wanted Gods reassurance. Yes he over stepped the mark and asked a bit to much of God and he lost his faith. But in the end he went on to fight and defeated the Midianites with even less men so that God would get the glory.

So the lesson was that we shouldnt use the fleece method as a way to prove the will of God in our lives and keep testing God. We should have faith and trust God in our lives. But it is sometimes OK to check that we are on the right track by looking for signs of reassurance also that tell us we are on the right track without pushing God and keep on testing him because of a lack of confidence in Gods will in our life. But you are not reading the stories and drawing any lessons from it. You are choosing certain smaller parts and using them out of context to make a false point about God. Once again this is going back to unbelief and you having a skeptical view of God and wanting to show God up as a hypocrite or that he is bad. So you will always miss the point of the story because you dont take the time to see the message of it in the first place.
Should Christians test God's will like Gideon with the fleece?

All of this is you trying to explain something very simple that Jesus is reported to have said. The greek word translated "lust" simply means "desire," so if you desire a woman, you have sinned.
No you are wanting to diminish the meaning so that you can show up God again. or in this case Jesus. You are trying to back God into a corner so there is no room to maneuver. Sort of damned if you do and damned if you dont situation.

This is all part of taking thing out of context and changing meanings to suit your cause which is to show God up as false. To do this you have to show inconsistencies and contradictions and falsehoods. So to establish this you have to change the goal posts all the time.

Here is a psychologists meaning of lust which has nothing to do with religion yet almost agrees with the difference between a normal healthy desire to have a mate and reproduce with love and the power of lust which goes beyond that normal desire.

Lust is an altered state of consciousness programmed by the primal urge to procreate. Studies suggest that the brain in this phase is much like a brain on drugs.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/emotional-freedom/201108/lust-vs-love-do-you-know-the-difference

Here is the Merriam Webster dictionaries meaning.
: a strong feeling of sexual desire: a strong desire for something
intense or unbridled sexual desire
an intense longing : craving



Examples of LUST

  1. He was consumed by lust.
  2. He was driven by a lust for power.
  3. Lust for chocolate drew her into the candy store.


So it is not just a desire. Otherwise it was just a desire that made the person rape the women. Lust can consume the person so that they are preoccupied with it or it can take over them and control their behavior to do things that are not acted through love or in thinking of others. This is not a desire but a power that drives a person beyond normal desire which is harnessed by love. Love v lust.

I'm unimpressed with your "myredeemerlives" reference and its scholarship. Here are more researched opinions:

"This important title, often found in connection with name ‘El, is found in several biblical passages in reference to Israel’s God (e.g., Gen.17.1; 28.3; 35.11;49.25; Ex. 6.3; Num. 24.4, 16; Ps. 68.15; Job 8.3,5, etc.). [1] ‘El-Shaddai is P’s favored title for God before the revelation of the divine name to Moses. But what is its meaning, and what is its historical derivation? Traditionally, following the LXX (i.e., the Septuagint, or ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible), which uses pantokrator, and the Vulgate (a Latin translation of the Bible by St. Jerome), which uses omnipotens, the term has often been rendered in English translation as “Almighty,” but it is now generally considered that this interpretation is fallacious, and possibly stems from a similar sounding Hebrew root $-d-d, meaning “to destroy.” Some modern scholars have suggested several other possibilities, such as connecting it with the Hebrew word $ad, meaning breast. However, since ‘El-Shaddai was a male diety, this seems somewhat unlikely. Another suggestion is that it is related to the Hebrew word sadeh, meaning “field.” However, this root uses a different sibilant (sin) in its root than does Shaddai (shin).
The most widely accepted scholarly view is that ‘El-Shaddai means “El, the mountain one,” relating shaddai to an Akkadian word $adum, “mountain.” Besides being a strong cognate, there are also several other historical factors that seem to lead to this conclusion. For instance, F.M. Cross has noted a Hurrian hymn which specifically describes El as “the one of the mountain.” The word is also used to describe the Amorite deity (Ilu-)Amurru, whose consort is A$ratum, the counterpart of the Canaanite high god ‘El’s consort Athirat (Asherah). Moreover, the Deir ‘Alla instription uses $dyn in parallel with ‘ihn, in reference to the gods of the assembly. Finally, ‘El and his divine assembly met on a mountain.

Given all of these factors then, ‘El-Shaddai very plausibly means “El, the mountain one,” and is most probably originally a divine title or epithet derived from the Canaanite high god ‘El."

-- El Shaddai

"El Shaddai. To Abraham God appears as God Almighty, El Shaddai (Gen 17:1). The designation "Shaddai," which some think is the oldest of the divine names in the Bible, occurs forty-eight times, thirty-one of which are in Job.
The traditional rendering "God Almighty" is debated. A consensus of sorts holds that "shaddai" is to be traced, not to the Hebrew, but to an Accadian word that means "mountain" so that the expression produces a meaning like, "'El, the One of the mountains." If so, El Shaddai highlights God's invincible power.

Or, the name may point to his symbolic dwelling. The juxtaposition of El Shaddai and El 'Elyon (Num 24:16; Psalm 91:1) may suggest that El Shaddai is a God who is chief in the heavenly council, whose residence was sometimes broadly associated with mountains (Hab 3:3)."

-- Bible study notes on ALMIGHTY from biblereferenceguide.com

"The term is usually explained as a cognate of the Akkadian word sadu, "mountain," but not in the sense that 'El Shaddai would mean "G-d the Rock" (cf. zur, "Rock," an epithet of G-d, e.g., Deuteronomy 32:4,30,37). Rather, 'El Shaddai would mean "'El-of-the-Mountain," i.e., of the cosmic mountain, the abode of 'El; for the Patriarchs the term would mean "the G-d of Heaven."

-- The Jewish Encyclopedia

Your reference, on the other hand, listed the most accepted meaning last with this tiny description:

"An Akkadian word "Šadu" (meaning "mountain"), suggests great strength."

In reality, the word "shaddai" does not indicate "great strength," it literally means "of/from the mountain." Other Canaanite gods had this same title (Rabu for one).

I'm quite familiar with the website. The author, Dr. Steve DiMattei, is saying that the priestly author(s) tried to assimilate (mix together) El and Yahweh when they added their material to the Hebrew bible.

Well, your god is one or two ancient, bronze age deities in the Canaanite pantheon. The God I recognize to exist is the Creator of the Cosmos, the Architect, the inventor of physics, the First Cause.
We could go on having this quote for quote thing. All i know is I have a personal relationship with God who is actively working in my life for the better. All your quoting is not going to make any difference to me. Why does it matter in the end.You still have your belief and I still have mine. We both can be happy knowing that we are able to have the freedom to believe what we do. I know I am not going to convince you of anything but thats Ok. I am comfortable with that. We can all make our own minds up according to our conscience.
 
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
bhsmte said:
You guys might set the record, for the longest posts in CF history.

I keep trying to give one sentence answers and he keeps posting essays. What do you do, you know (besides quit and go do something productive with my life)?

stevewv said:
No it doesn't. You keep pulling out passages and verses to try and pin something on believers or God that will support your accusations. In this case that God demands a show or that its OK to test God.

What you dont do is read the entire story and put it into context but pull out a small section that suits what you want to imply which is totally out of context. Gideon is asked by god to fight the Midianites who were coming to challenge Israel. Gideon was afraid and didn't really want to do it. He was a bit of a wimp and asked God for a sign that God would be with him when he went into battle. He pushed his luck and thats why he said to God to not be angry when he asked the 2nd time with the fleece test.

Yes he was weak in his belief at that time as he had already seen and heard God but want extra signs to be given reassurance that God would be with him in the battles. He didn't class himself as a warrior and was a bit scared so he tested God and didn't trust him. But this wasn't a test to prove God and test him in a way that would show God up and make God prove himself by lowering his majesty. This was already a believer who had a weak moment and wanted Gods reassurance. Yes he over stepped the mark and asked a bit to much of God and he lost his faith. But in the end he went on to fight and defeated the Midianites with even less men so that God would get the glory.

So the lesson was that we shouldnt use the fleece method as a way to prove the will of God in our lives and keep testing God. We should have faith and trust God in our lives. But it is sometimes OK to check that we are on the right track by looking for signs of reassurance also that tell us we are on the right track without pushing God and keep on testing him because of a lack of confidence in Gods will in our life. But you are not reading the stories and drawing any lessons from it. You are choosing certain smaller parts and using them out of context to make a false point about God. Once again this is going back to unbelief and you having a skeptical view of God and wanting to show God up as a hypocrite or that he is bad. So you will always miss the point of the story because you dont take the time to see the message of it in the first place.
Should Christians test God's will like Gideon with the fleece?

From your own source:
As Herbert Wolf comments, “If this ‘fleece’ consists of a careful observation and interpretation of God’s leading through circumstances, the procedure can be a healthy one. But Gideon’s method was to make purely arbitrary demands of God, and insist on immediate guidance. Such an approach can hardly be recommended for Christians today.

In other words, don't do what happened in the bible, cause it does not work.

No you are wanting to diminish the meaning so that you can show up God again. or in this case Jesus. You are trying to back God into a corner so there is no room to maneuver. Sort of damned if you do and damned if you dont situation.

This is all part of taking thing out of context and changing meanings to suit your cause which is to show God up as false. To do this you have to show inconsistencies and contradictions and falsehoods. So to establish this you have to change the goal posts all the time.

Here is a psychologists meaning of lust which has nothing to do with religion yet almost agrees with the difference between a normal healthy desire to have a mate and reproduce with love and the power of lust which goes beyond that normal desire.

Lust is an altered state of consciousness programmed by the primal urge to procreate. Studies suggest that the brain in this phase is much like a brain on drugs.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...the-difference

Here is the Merriam Webster dictionaries meaning.
: a strong feeling of sexual desire: a strong desire for something
intense or unbridled sexual desire
an intense longing : craving



Examples of LUST
He was consumed by lust.
He was driven by a lust for power.
Lust for chocolate drew her into the candy store.


So it is not just a desire. Otherwise it was just a desire that made the person rape the women. Lust can consume the person so that they are preoccupied with it or it can take over them and control their behavior to do things that are not acted through love or in thinking of others. This is not a desire but a power that drives a person beyond normal desire which is harnessed by love. Love v lust.

It completely does not matter what the English word means. All that matters is what the Greek word means, and the Greek word simply means "desire." I linked this for you.

We could go on having this quote for quote thing. All i know is I have a personal relationship with God who is actively working in my life for the better. All your quoting is not going to make any difference to me. Why does it matter in the end.You still have your belief and I still have mine. We both can be happy knowing that we are able to have the freedom to believe what we do. I know I am not going to convince you of anything but thats Ok. I am comfortable with that. We can all make our own minds up according to our conscience.

When shown the evidence against what you say, you return to "my beliefs work for me." If you'd stick with that instead of trying to prove your beliefs, you'd be basing your life on fantasy, but at least we'd agree on why.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,133
1,787
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟324,120.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I keep trying to give one sentence answers and he keeps posting essays. What do you do, you know (besides quit and go do something productive with my life)?
yeah your one sentence answers are totally out of context. Its easy to pull out little tid bits so that they can be manipulated into whatever you want to turn them into. I include a comprehensive reply with the surrounding verses of the bible that show it in the right context with supporting links.
Besides I think he maybe talking about the length of time we are taking not the length of posts.

From your own source:
As Herbert Wolf comments, “If this ‘fleece’ consists of a careful observation and interpretation of God’s leading through circumstances, the procedure can be a healthy one. But Gideon’s method was to make purely arbitrary demands of God, and insist on immediate guidance. Such an approach can hardly be recommended for Christians today.

In other words, don't do what happened in the bible, cause it does not work.
Thats exactly what I was pointing out. There is no problems here. Any scholar will point this out as well. Yes Gideon was asking to much of God. He was seeking assurance and showed his weakness when he got a little scared. Not every man is a mighty warrior for God. Some need some encouragement or will lose some faith at times. After all we are human and are susceptible to slip ups. But he came good in the end. But what you demand is perfection and humans never showing any human weakness because its in the bible. There is no drama here Gideon had a belief but he had a moment in that belief and lost some faith. He asked to much of God and thats the lesson we can learn. That is what the bible is for, learning from the example of others.

It completely does not matter what the English word means. All that matters is what the Greek word means, and the Greek word simply means "desire." I linked this for you.
So wait a minute the dictionary doesn't matter anymore in the meaning of our words. So it doesn't matter what the psychologist say about what happens in real life with lust. They say that its like a drug and affects people so that it takes over them and takes control. They deal with the real affects on a daily basis. But here is a more specific Greek meaning.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1939: ἐπιθυμία
ἐπιθυμία, ἐπιθυμίας, ἡ (ἐπιθυμέω) (from Herodotus on), the Sept. chiefly for תַּאֲוָה, אַוָּה, חֲמוּד; desire, craving, longing: Luke 22:15 (on which sevin ἐπιθυμέω, at the end); Revelation 18:14; τήν ἐπιθυμίαν ἔχειν εἰς τί, the desire directed toward, Philippians 1:23; ἐν πολλή ἐπιθυμία with great desire, 1 Thessalonians 2:17; plural αἱ περί τά λοιπά ἐπιθυμίαι, Mark 4:19 (Winers Grammar, § 30, 3 N. 5); specifically, desire for what is forbidden,

But lets have a look at what happens in real life. We know for example it destroyed famous people lives and marriages like Tiger Woods and JFk who both admit to not being able to control their cravings for sex.
Celebrity Sex Addicts - Famous Celebrities Addicted to Sex - Marie Claire
This has happened to many people who spend hours on porn sites and thousands on sex chat lines and prostitutes. Its more than just a thought or a bit of a desire that is a fleeting thought. Lust or call it what you want but it goes beyond a mere though and slight desire which can be controlled and overcome. This lust drives a person to cost them things and seek a self pleasure that feeds a consuming desire for self gratification. Big difference.

When shown the evidence against what you say, you return to "my beliefs work for me." If you'd stick with that instead of trying to prove your beliefs, you'd be basing your life on fantasy, but at least we'd agree on why.
You havnt shown any evidence for what you say. All you are doing is trying to turn something into something its not so you can make a case against God and believers. I have refuted several bible texts that you have taken out of context and had support to back that up. But then you keep going onto the next text and the next one because you didn't get the results you want each time. Like I said at this rate we will go through the whole bible but I havnt got time as I also have other studies. I didn't mind going through the first couple but you keep adding new ones and that is why it is dragging on to tell the truth. I am just replying you are the one setting the pace and length that this post is taking on by adding new things to it all the time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
stevevw said:
yeah your one sentence answers are totally out of context. Its easy to pull out little tid bits so that they can be manipulated into whatever you want to turn them into. I include a comprehensive reply with the surrounding verses of the bible that show it in the right context with supporting links.
Besides I think he maybe talking about the length of time we are taking not the length of posts.

There's not been a single time in which you have said "that's out of context" and I failed to explain how it most certainly is in context.

Thats exactly what I was pointing out. There is no problems here. Any scholar will point this out as well. Yes Gideon was asking to much of God. He was seeking assurance and showed his weakness when he got a little scared. Not every man is a mighty warrior for God. Some need some encouragement or will lose some faith at times. After all we are human and are susceptible to slip ups. But he came good in the end. But what you demand is perfection and humans never showing any human weakness because its in the bible. There is no drama here Gideon had a belief but he had a moment in that belief and lost some faith. He asked to much of God and thats the lesson we can learn. That is what the bible is for, learning from the example of others.

The text does not agree with your theological beliefs. You say he asked "too much of God," but there is no indication in the text that this is correct. God simply performs the miracle in response to Gideon's test.

So wait a minute the dictionary doesn't matter anymore in the meaning of our words. So it doesn't matter what the psychologist say about what happens in real life with lust. They say that its like a drug and affects people so that it takes over them and takes control. They deal with the real affects on a daily basis. But here is a more specific Greek meaning.

Quote a psychologist who says "lust is like a drug and affects people so that it takes over them and takes control." Name just one psychologist who says this. And furthermore, no, it does not matter what the English term "lust" means since we're not debating a translation, we're discussing a Greek text.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1939: ἐπιθυμία
ἐπιθυμία, ἐπιθυμίας, ἡ (ἐπιθυμέω) (from Herodotus on), the Sept. chiefly for תַּאֲוָה, אַוָּה, חֲמוּד; desire, craving, longing: Luke 22:15 (on which sevin ἐπιθυμέω, at the end); Revelation 18:14; τήν ἐπιθυμίαν ἔχειν εἰς τί, the desire directed toward, Philippians 1:23; ἐν πολλή ἐπιθυμία with great desire, 1 Thessalonians 2:17; plural αἱ περί τά λοιπά ἐπιθυμίαι, Mark 4:19 (Winers Grammar, § 30, 3 N. 5); specifically, desire for what is forbidden

Yep, that's the definition. Not once does it say "lust".

Ever desired a woman that is forbidden to you (also known as "not married to you" in Jesus' worldview)? Controlled by the flesh ye are.

But lets have a look at what happens in real life. We know for example it destroyed famous people lives and marriages like Tiger Woods and JFk who both admit to not being able to control their cravings for sex.
Celebrity Sex Addicts - Famous Celebrities Addicted to Sex - Marie Claire
This has happened to many people who spend hours on porn sites and thousands on sex chat lines and prostitutes. Its more than just a thought or a bit of a desire that is a fleeting thought. Lust or call it what you want but it goes beyond a mere though and slight desire which can be controlled and overcome. This lust drives a person to cost them things and seek a self pleasure that feeds a consuming desire for self gratification. Big difference.

If you looked at a woman with desire, you sinned, chief. Also sin is the same to God (according to the bible), so shall we start calling you Tiger?

You havnt shown any evidence for what you say. All you are doing is trying to turn something into something its not so you can make a case against God and believers. I have refuted several bible texts that you have taken out of context and had support to back that up. But then you keep going onto the next text and the next one because you didn't get the results you want each time. Like I said at this rate we will go through the whole bible but I havnt got time as I also have other studies. I didn't mind going through the first couple but you keep adding new ones and that is why it is dragging on to tell the truth. I am just replying you are the one setting the pace and length that this post is taking on by adding new things to it all the time.

Yes, let's review what you have said:

It's understandable to want to beat infants on rocks (it isn't).
Psalms are not to be sung or chanted (that's their entire purpose).
The bible is both perfect yet not perfect because it was written by men (illogical).
That Psalms 137 is referring to the Medes and Persians (it isn't).
The Holy Spirit speaks to you, but doesn't say anything (must be great conversations).
God can't be tested (Gideon did without judgement).
Gideon was wrong to test God (bible doesn't say that).
God doesn't do signs and wonders like a magician (he did for Elijah).
When Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace, he meant the opposite (illogical).
You are no longer controlled by the flesh, yet you desire women (illogical).
The gospels recording Jesus' last words all differently is just perspective (it's objectively inaccurate).
You know what's right because you have thirty years to draw on (everybody with over 30 years experience, must therefore be right).
God holds the celestial bodies in place (no, gravity does).
El Shaddai means "All-Sufficient One" (it doesn't, it means El of the Mountain).

Shall we stop there?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.