What language does Allah speak?

[Booko]

That makes some sense but then why do Catholics do mass in Latin in many places when the original Biblical languages were Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

Syriac Christians still use Aramaic.

Assuming any of the Christians in Syria are surviving the turmoil in Syria that's going on.

 

[steve_bakr]

Allah understands all languages, but Al Qur'an was revealed in Arabic.

 

[smaneck]

Syriac Christians still use Aramaic.

Assuming any of the Christians in Syria are surviving the turmoil in Syria that's going on.

I think they are okay. In Syria Christians who have problems with the government do so not because they are Christians but because they refer to themselves as Assyrians rather than Arabs.

Keep in mind that the founder of the Baath Party was a Syrian Christian.

 

[Booko]

I think they are okay. In Syria Christians who have problems with the government do so not because they are Christians but because they refer to themselves as Assyrians rather than Arabs.

Keep in mind that the founder of the Baath Party was a Syrian Christian.

I'm not sure anyone is doing so well in Syria at the moment. Anyone can become collateral damage.

Oh, decidedly still off topic, but this week's Newsweek has an article about the "war on Christians" (not the faux one here, but the very real troubles of Christians in Africa and the Near East.

I thought some people on this forum might want to look for that article. I'll be looking for it, though I usually don't read Newsweek other than in doctor's offices.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I thought some people on this forum might want to look for that article. I'll be looking for it, though I usually don't read Newsweek other than in doctor's offices.

Then you're clearly not living right!

Doctors' offices are where you're supposed to be reading National Geographic!


Bruce

 

[Booko]

Doctors' offices are where you're supposed to be reading National Geographic!

No that's where I read Road & Track.

I know why some people read Nat Geo magazine, but y'know I can just look in the mirror. *ahem*

 

[BruceDLimber]

No that's where I read Road & Track.

De gustibus non est disputandum!

I know why some people read Nat Geo magazine, but y'know I can just look in the mirror. *ahem*

Then I'm sure the mirror is duly impressed.

Bruce

 

[balaclava]

It is my understanding that prayers are said in Arabic because that is the language Allah chose to reveal the Qur'an in. Similarly, the Qur'an is to be recited in the original language. So, all Muslims are encouraged to learn the Qur'an in Arabic.

The original Quran was not written in Arabic! Why do you accept everything you are told at face value?

Sorry if it appears that I'm stalking you but your posts keep coming up with statements which are 'off the wall.'

 

[balaclava]

What language was the original verses of the the Quran written in?
Muhammad b.570 to d.632 was a member of the Quraish tribe who were descendants of Ishmael. The Quraish are referred to as Arabised Arabs i.e. not true Arabs. It can be seen from the below quote from Bukhari 6:61:510 that the Quraish had their own dialect and their own written language. It consequently seems logical that the original notations of the iterations dictated by Muhammad to his scribes were written in Quraish.
It appears that during the 23 years when Muhammad dictated verses of the Qur’an he did so to several different scribes who appear to have retained the various writings themselves. After the battle of Yamama in 633 AD when 700 Muslims who had memorized the Qur'an were killed including Sālim, who had been entrusted by Muhammad to teach the Qur'an, Abu Bakr ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Muhammad's primary scribe, to collect the scattered pieces of the Qur'an.
Zaid ibn Thabit, said . . . ....By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Quran... So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (Bukhari 6:60:201)
All that he collected all that he could find he handed them to Umar, who, on his deathbed gave them to Hafsa bint Umar, his daughter and one of Muhammad's widows.

Uthman ibn Affan, (644 – 656 AD) during his reign as the third Caliph, formed a committee of prominent Quraish to place in order the various verses and produce a standard copy of the text.
This became known as al-mushaf al-Uthmani or the ‘Uthmanic codex.’ It was written in Kufic, the most commonly used script in the region at that time.
Bukhari (6:61:510) records the follwing about Uthman in 653 AD:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)
As can be seen, from the above quote all the original notes were burnt by Uthman presumably to prevent future argument that his compiled version was not correct. It also logically follows that the oldes survining copies of the Qur’an would be writtn in the Kufic script.
Arab Script
At the time of Muhammad the principal material used for writing on was hide. Of course processing a piece of animal skin to use as paper was time consuming and costly. It consequently follows that very little writing was done and few people knew how to write. In fact, even today, literacy in the Arab world is relatively low.
The Arabs usually distinguish four types of pre-Islamic script: al-Hiri (from Hira), al-Anbari (from Anbar), al-Maqqi (from Mecca) and al-Madani (from Medina). The famous author of Fihrist, Ibn Nadim (died c. 390/999) was the first to use the word 'kufic', deriving it from the hiri script. However, Kufic script cannot have originated in Kufa, since that city was founded in 17/638, and the Kufic script is known to have existed before that date, but this great intellectual centre did enable calligraphy to be developed and perfected aesthetically from the pre-Islamic scripts.”
Kufic also sometimes called Hiri script is one of the oldest calligraphic form of the various Arabic scripts and consists of a modified form of the old Nabatean script. Its name is derived from the city of Kufa (in modern-day Iraq), although it was known in Mesopotamia at least 100 years before the foundation of Kufa. At the time of the emergence of Islam, this type of script was already in use in various parts of the Arabian Peninsula.

 

[steve_bakr]

What language was the original verses of the the Quran written in?
Muhammad b.570 to d.632 was a member of the Quraish tribe who were descendants of Ishmael. The Quraish are referred to as Arabised Arabs i.e. not true Arabs. It can be seen from the below quote from Bukhari 6:61:510 that the Quraish had their own dialect and their own written language. It consequently seems logical that the original notations of the iterations dictated by Muhammad to his scribes were written in Quraish.
It appears that during the 23 years when Muhammad dictated verses of the Qur'an he did so to several different scribes who appear to have retained the various writings themselves. After the battle of Yamama in 633 AD when 700 Muslims who had memorized the Qur'an were killed including S?lim, who had been entrusted by Muhammad to teach the Qur'an, Abu Bakr ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Muhammad's primary scribe, to collect the scattered pieces of the Qur'an.
Zaid ibn Thabit, said . . . ....By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Quran... So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (Bukhari 6:60:201)
All that he collected all that he could find he handed them to Umar, who, on his deathbed gave them to Hafsa bint Umar, his daughter and one of Muhammad's widows.

Uthman ibn Affan, (644 - 656 AD) during his reign as the third Caliph, formed a committee of prominent Quraish to place in order the various verses and produce a standard copy of the text.
This became known as al-mushaf al-Uthmani or the 'Uthmanic codex.' It was written in Kufic, the most commonly used script in the region at that time.
Bukhari (6:61:510) records the follwing about Uthman in 653 AD:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)
As can be seen, from the above quote all the original notes were burnt by Uthman presumably to prevent future argument that his compiled version was not correct. It also logically follows that the oldes survining copies of the Qur'an would be writtn in the Kufic script.
Arab Script
At the time of Muhammad the principal material used for writing on was hide. Of course processing a piece of animal skin to use as paper was time consuming and costly. It consequently follows that very little writing was done and few people knew how to write. In fact, even today, literacy in the Arab world is relatively low.
The Arabs usually distinguish four types of pre-Islamic script: al-Hiri (from Hira), al-Anbari (from Anbar), al-Maqqi (from Mecca) and al-Madani (from Medina). The famous author of Fihrist, Ibn Nadim (died c. 390/999) was the first to use the word 'kufic', deriving it from the hiri script. However, Kufic script cannot have originated in Kufa, since that city was founded in 17/638, and the Kufic script is known to have existed before that date, but this great intellectual centre did enable calligraphy to be developed and perfected aesthetically from the pre-Islamic scripts."
Kufic also sometimes called Hiri script is one of the oldest calligraphic form of the various Arabic scripts and consists of a modified form of the old Nabatean script. Its name is derived from the city of Kufa (in modern-day Iraq), although it was known in Mesopotamia at least 100 years before the foundation of Kufa. At the time of the emergence of Islam, this type of script was already in use in various parts of the Arabian Peninsula.

The Quraish may have had a unique dialect, but the language was still Arabic.

 

[balaclava]

The Quraish may have had a unique dialect, but the language was still Arabic.

You can say that but it doesn't make it true!

I produce evidence you produce words which you would like to be true.

Poor very poor!

 

[TG123]

What language was the original verses of the the Quran written in?
Muhammad b.570 to d.632 was a member of the Quraish tribe who were descendants of Ishmael. The Quraish are referred to as Arabised Arabs i.e. not true Arabs. It can be seen from the below quote from Bukhari 6:61:510 that the Quraish had their own dialect and their own written language. It consequently seems logical that the original notations of the iterations dictated by Muhammad to his scribes were written in Quraish.
It appears that during the 23 years when Muhammad dictated verses of the Qur’an he did so to several different scribes who appear to have retained the various writings themselves. After the battle of Yamama in 633 AD when 700 Muslims who had memorized the Qur'an were killed including Sālim, who had been entrusted by Muhammad to teach the Qur'an, Abu Bakr ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Muhammad's primary scribe, to collect the scattered pieces of the Qur'an.
Zaid ibn Thabit, said . . . ....By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Quran... So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (Bukhari 6:60:201)
All that he collected all that he could find he handed them to Umar, who, on his deathbed gave them to Hafsa bint Umar, his daughter and one of Muhammad's widows.

Uthman ibn Affan, (644 – 656 AD) during his reign as the third Caliph, formed a committee of prominent Quraish to place in order the various verses and produce a standard copy of the text.
This became known as al-mushaf al-Uthmani or the ‘Uthmanic codex.’ It was written in Kufic, the most commonly used script in the region at that time.
Bukhari (6:61:510) records the follwing about Uthman in 653 AD:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)
As can be seen, from the above quote all the original notes were burnt by Uthman presumably to prevent future argument that his compiled version was not correct. It also logically follows that the oldes survining copies of the Qur’an would be writtn in the Kufic script.
Arab Script
At the time of Muhammad the principal material used for writing on was hide. Of course processing a piece of animal skin to use as paper was time consuming and costly. It consequently follows that very little writing was done and few people knew how to write. In fact, even today, literacy in the Arab world is relatively low.
The Arabs usually distinguish four types of pre-Islamic script: al-Hiri (from Hira), al-Anbari (from Anbar), al-Maqqi (from Mecca) and al-Madani (from Medina). The famous author of Fihrist, Ibn Nadim (died c. 390/999) was the first to use the word 'kufic', deriving it from the hiri script. However, Kufic script cannot have originated in Kufa, since that city was founded in 17/638, and the Kufic script is known to have existed before that date, but this great intellectual centre did enable calligraphy to be developed and perfected aesthetically from the pre-Islamic scripts.”
Kufic also sometimes called Hiri script is one of the oldest calligraphic form of the various Arabic scripts and consists of a modified form of the old Nabatean script. Its name is derived from the city of Kufa (in modern-day Iraq), although it was known in Mesopotamia at least 100 years before the foundation of Kufa. At the time of the emergence of Islam, this type of script was already in use in various parts of the Arabian Peninsula.

What source did you get this from? Can you please post a URL? Thanks.

 

[SuryoyoChurch]

Syriac Christians still use Aramaic.

Assuming any of the Christians in Syria are surviving the turmoil in Syria that's going on.

Because the name is Syriac Christians doesn't mean that we're from today's Syria.

Of course there are quite a bit of Syriac Christians in Syria but most Syriacs are originally from what today is Southeastern Turkey. Many live in the west (there are 150,000-200,000 in just Sweden and Germany together) today after the genocide in Turkey.

Ethnically we're Assyrian/Aramean.

Let's hope for the best in Syria though.

 

[karim06518]

Balaclava, I would also like you to provide the source of your information. Thank you.

Wassalam,
Karim

 

[balaclava]

What source did you get this from? Can you please post a URL? Thanks.

What you read is a compilation of the results of my studies over many years. Yes some of it is clipped or copied from this source or that but it isn't from one single place. You may find some of it on-line somewhere and some of it in books but it was not written by me as a thesis to be submitted for academic acreditation and so I never embeddied the source in the text.

That said, you will see, for example Bukhari (6:61:510) and the like, that in itself is the source.

 

[steve_bakr]

You can say that but it doesn't make it true!

I produce evidence you produce words which you would like to be true.

Poor very poor!

The word "dialect"--which you used--does not imply a different language but a variation of the same language. The accuracy of the Quran was assured by the hafiz--those who commited it to memory. The recitation takes precedence; what is written is a reflection of the recitation. Furthermore, I take the word of the Quran scholar and translator Muhammad Asad that the Quran occurs in the Classical Arabic of the Quraish tribe. To those whom the Quran was recited, it was in very understandable Arabic of the 7th century.

 

[steve_bakr]

You can say that but it doesn't make it true!

I produce evidence you produce words which you would like to be true.

Poor very poor!

Who among the acknowledged scholars support your theory?

 

[razeontherock]

The accuracy of the Quran was assured by the hafiz--those who commited it to memory. The recitation takes precedence; what is written is a reflection of the recitation.

This seems to be supported by the facts. It is also contrary to the Islamic claims, about how their Scriptures are somehow more pure or more accurately recorded than our's. In fact I rather favor the peaceful circumstances and purposes for why our's got written down, as lending to better accuracy.

 

[balaclava]

. The accuracy of the Quran was assured by the hafiz--those who commited it to memory. .

One of the reasons that Uthman consolidated the verse of the Quran was that those who had ‘memorised’ it were reciting it differently. The other reason was that the written verses were held by several people in different places and some had been lost (his wife Aisha for example spoke of some being eaten by their goat).
Why did Uthman then burned all the originals, you might ask?
Read on . . .

The Myth Of Memorisation As A Means Of Preservation

Hadith Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman.'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit,'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies.'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies,'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa.'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari.(That Verse was):'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'(33.23)
The hadith provides evidence for the faulty memories of both Muhammad and his companions:
Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur'an at night, and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget." (Bukhari, Volume 6, Book LXI, Number 558)
Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) offered prayer. The version of the narrator Ibrahim goes: I do not know whether he increased or decreased (the rak'ahs of prayer).
When he gave the salutation, he was asked: Has something new happened in the prayer, Apostle of Allah? He said: What is it? They said: You prayed so many and so many (rak'ahs). He then relented his foot and faced the Qiblah and made two prostrations. He then gave the salutation. When he turned away (finished the prayer), he turned his face to us and said: Had anything new happened in prayer, I would have informed you. I am only a human being and I forget just as you do; so when I forget, remind me, and when any of you is in doubt about his prayer he should aim at what is correct, and complete his prayer in that respect, then give the salutation and afterwards made two prostrations. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 3, Number 1015)
Narrated Abdullah: I recited before the Prophet 'Fahal-min-Mudhdhakir'. The Prophet said, "It is Fahal-min Muddakir." (Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 397)
Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bar'at. I have forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it: "O people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise: (lxi 2.) and "that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13) (Sahih Muslim, Book V, Number 2286)

 

[razeontherock]

One of the reasons that Uthman consolidated the verse of the Quran ... was that the written verses were held by several people in different places and some had been lost (his wife Aisha for example spoke of some being eaten by their goat).

That wouldn't have happened if they had separated the goats and put them on the left