What "kind" is it?

[JohnR7]

2nd April 2003 at 03:48 AM L'Anatra said this in Post #78  You said it yourself, John: the Bible doesn't deal very much with prehistory.

What we do know about prehistory has been repeated many times on this board: "God did it". That is really all we need to know. The problem is, people hihack evolution to try and say God did not do it. They deny God and that is where the problems begin.

Romans 1:18-20
    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [19] because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [20] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

People suppress the truth, even though it is clearly evident in creation and they will be held accountable, they are "without excuse". We have been given a trumpet and it is our job to blow that trumpet and warn people about the wrath of God. Also we are to be a light to the world.

That's precisely the reason why we can't use it to answer our questions about prehistory!

The Bible is not there to answer all your questions. Moses is not going to do your work for you. The Bible is there as a standard so you can know if your in the truth or not. Many a scientist christian and non christian, use the Bible. There is no way your going to be able to use DNA to trace down the family tree of mankind without using the Bible. If you disregard the Bible, then you will end up in error. Even Darwin used the Bible as a guide for morality all of his life. But he rejected the Bible in his attempt to understand evolution. It is because he did not follow the Bible, that so much of what he said has been proven not to be true.

The problem is NOT the Bible, the problem is the traditions of man.

Matthew 15:3
    He {Jesus} answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

Darwin never got past the traditions of man to get at the truth of the Bible. He pretty much threw the baby out with the bath water.

 

 

[L'Anatra]

2nd April 2003 at 08:26 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #81
What we do know about prehistory has been repeated many times on this board: "God did it". That is really all we need to know. The problem is, people hihack evolution to try and say God did not do it. They deny God and that is where the problems begin.

You're right, there are people that try to say God didn't do it. However, the Theory of Evolution does not mention God, so I hardly see the problem. I'm certainly not denying God. The ethnocentrism (or is it theocentrism) of the creationist view is mind-boggling, though expected. No wonder people are being swayed from Christianity!

continuing JohnR7's post...
People suppress the truth, even though it is clearly evident in creation and they will be held accountable, they are "without excuse". We have been given a trumpet and it is our job to blow that trumpet and warn people about the wrath of God. Also we are to be a light to the world.

I'm not even gonna discuss "supressing truth." What is clearly evident in creation is that evolution takes place and has since life began several billion years ago. Go actually take a look and tell me this isn't so, and then we'll begin.

continuing JohnR7's post...
The Bible is not there to answer all your questions. Moses is not going to do your work for you. The Bible is there as a standard so you can know if your in the truth or not. Many a scientist christian and non christian, use the Bible. There is no way your going to be able to use DNA to trace down the family tree of mankind without using the Bible. If you disregard the Bible, then you will end up in error. Even Darwin used the Bible as a guide for morality all of his life. But he rejected the Bible in his attempt to understand evolution. It is because he did not follow the Bible, that so much of what he said has been proven not to be true.

The problem is NOT the Bible, the problem is the traditions of man.

Darwin never got past the traditions of man to get at the truth of the Bible. He pretty much threw the baby out with the bath water.

No, the Bible is not there to answer all your questions. That's why you look at creation. Creation says one thing, you say something else. It's really that simple, John. Who do you think is telling the truth here? You do know the Bible warns against teaching lies? Stupid question, I know...

Let me put it this way: creationists insist that people "believe" in evolution because they want to deny God. And I'm sure there is a little bit of truth to that. People would find a way to deny any god (God in this case), because it is in their nature to do so, NOT because of what science tells them.

At the same time, if science went out there and looked at the world and found out everything was there perfectly as the Bible said it should be and there were no supposed "contradictions," do you really think anyone would care? I certainly wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't care if the Earth were flat or it was the centre of the universe. I wouldn't care if the sky really were a solid dome (although that would do wonders for the space program ). Do you really think faith would be what it is if we found the Bible was literally true, every word of it? Have you ever heard of the concept there can be no good without evil, nor peace without war? Did that thought ever cross your brain?

Either way, I have learned to accept REALITY! The world is what it is. I have no idea where in the name of everything that's holy you got the idea that "so much of what Darwin said has been proven wrong." You still haven't read On the Origin of Species, have you?

By all means, learn your theological (and perhaps historical) truth from the Bible. It is absolutely rife with useful lessons. People denying the Bible would exist whether or not modern science exists. People have been doing it for thousands of years, do you really expect them to stop now? For Pete's sake, at least question a person's upbringing before coming up with some totally ludicrous conspiracy theory.

The Bible only becomes a problem when you take every word literally and try to shove God into the "gaps" in its teachings about creation.

And what is "Darwin never got past the traditions of man..." supposed to mean?

EDIT: wording...

 

[L'Anatra]

This post isn't directed to anyone in particular, and I really want to apologize in advance for my rather blunt language, but here goes:

I've just noticed something. Biblical literalists seem to exemplify a very distrubing aspect of human nature. Instead of actually looking at the "problem" (in this case, atheism) and trying to come up with a rational solution, they point the finger at science because it's the easiest thing to do. Then they all band together preaching their ridiculous "cause," and expect to be taken seriously.

Don't get me wrong, I say you can believe what you want. That's what makes countries like Canada or the United States great.

But when you start questioning a person's Christianity because they believe a certain way, you've crossed the line. When you start misrepresenting the position of thousands of accomplished people, you've crossed the line. This is the Biblical literalist's standpoint, and it's blatantly unChristian.

There, I said it.

 

[LadyShea]

2nd April 2003 at 12:48 AM L'Anatra said this in Post #78

Anyway: I like animals, too. I never learned anything about the echidna; what a strange creature!

I had hoped this thread would be a welcome break from the same old arguments and maybe all of us could post weird critters and learn something new...I am glad you got to add some new knowledge to your arsenal. I am very impressed with your writing and critical thinking skills BTW, especially for your age

 

notto said

This page contains a nice diagram showing ancestreal relationships between carnivours (it is too small to read well in the article, the link below takes you directly to the chart).

ttp://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/images/W2FIG2.gif">http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/images/W2FIG2.gif

This chart even includes the civet!!

Excellent chart!...though I wish it was digital...looks like it was scanned and is a bit hard to read.

 

[Arikay]

Yep, the danger of fundementalists.
Not to be harsh but quite often I find that fundementalists arent really christian, they say they are christian, but quite often they dont act christian.

 

[Arikay]

Lady, I think you should gather all the what "kind" is it posts up and make an article out of it.

 

[LadyShea]

Arikay, taht would be fun, but I wish others would post some "what kind is it" critters too...I am sure there are many many more that I have never heard of.

 

[Arikay]

I would, but I dont know any. besides maybe some marsupials. Ive learned a lot about new criters from this thread though.

 

[tof]

Thanks LadyShea for this very interesting thread
animalsoftherainforest.com has very nice pictures of rainforest weird critters
like this one
www frontiernet net/~kidpower/MMS/rubbereel.gif
This is a rubbereel or caecilian
Caecilians are legless amphibians (frogs, salamanders)
I learned from the site that some of them lay eggs, some give birth to live young and others have eggs that hatch inside the mother.

 

[LadyShea]

Thanks tof! Strange and icky indeed...here's the image

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Here's another odd animal, the Mudskipper:

http://www.animecritic.com/_temp/mudskipper.jpg

It's a fish with leg-like fins that can walk, jump, and even climb trees. It also possesses pockets within its gills that can be filled with water so it can breath while outside of the water.

 

[tof]

Yet another weird amphibian
www2 arnes si/~ljjama4/s11a.jpg
The proteus can only live in dark caves.
It reaches sexual maturity as a larva (in fact Linnaeus considered it only a larva).
It has no pigmentation and breathes through gills, despite having rudimentary lungs . Its eyes are only visible at the foetal stage.

 

[L'Anatra]

2nd April 2003 at 03:30 PM LadyShea said this in Post #84
I had hoped this thread would be a welcome break from the same old arguments and maybe all of us could post weird critters and learn something new...I am glad you got to add some new knowledge to your arsenal. I am very impressed with your writing and critical thinking skills BTW, especially for your age

Thanks for the compliment!

Sorry for derailing your thread a little bit there; I wish I had a weird critter to post.

 

[JohnR7]

2nd April 2003 at 09:02 AM L'Anatra said this in Post #82  No wonder people are being swayed from Christianity!

What they are being swayed from, most likely is not true Christianity. 

What is clearly evident in creation is that evolution takes place 

It depends on what you mean by "evolution". There are a lot of different theorys out there.  

No, the Bible is not there to answer all your questions.

God is all in all. He has the answer for every question, the solution for every problem. There is nothing to difficult for God.

Creation says one thing, you say something else.

I am glad you think you know what I believe. But I really doubt if you do. It is rare that I would share my personal faith with people, because it is personal, special to me and I do not subject it to others attacking and tearing it down. 

It's really that simple, John. Who do you think is telling the truth here? You do know the Bible warns against teaching lies?

Are you calling me a liar? Ok, lets get it out on the table here. What did I say that you would consider a lie?


Let me put it this way: creationists insist that people "believe" in evolution because they want to deny God. And I'm sure there is a little bit of truth to that. People would find a way to deny any god (God in this case), because it is in their nature to do so, NOT because of what science tells them. 

And what is "Darwin never got past the traditions of man..." supposed to mean?

Darwin was a student of natural theology. Somewhere along the way, he decided that he could no longer believe or accept what he had learned about natural theology. It never occured to him that maybe the problem was in what they were teaching. There can be no problem with the Bible, sense the Bible is absolute truth. The Bible has always been true and Bible will go right on being true, no matter what mans opinion is about it.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Continuing the parade of odd animals, I present:

The Sawfish

A shark-like ray with a prominent feature to call all its own.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Next up, the Okapili. You might think it is related to the Zebra, but its closest relative is the Giraffe.

 

[Gracchus]

2nd April 2003 at 06:46 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #94



What they are being swayed from, most likely is not true Christianity.

Well, of course not. Anyone who doesn't share your views can't be a TRUE Christian.

It depends on what you mean by "evolution". There are a lot of different theorys out there.

Why don't you give us your definition. It's probably as unique as YOUR Christianity.

God is all in all. He has the answer for every question, the solution for every problem. There is nothing to difficult for God.

I am awed by how much He resembles you.

I am glad you think you know what I believe. But I really doubt if you do. It is rare that I would share my personal faith with people, because it is personal, special to me and I do not subject it to others attacking and tearing it down.

I can well believe that it cannot stand much stress.

Are you calling me a liar? Ok, lets get it out on the table here. What did I say that you would consider a lie?

I think he got confused, because your custom crafted religion doesn't match any of the store-bought brands.

Let me put it this way: creationists insist that people "believe" in evolution because they want to deny God. And I'm sure there is a little bit of truth to that. People would find a way to deny any god (God in this case), because it is in their nature to do so, NOT because of what science tells them.

Right on track, as usual, JohnR7. There is very little truth indeed, in any of your assertions.

Darwin was a student of natural theology. Somewhere along the way, he decided that he could no longer believe or accept what he had learned about natural theology. It never occured to him that maybe the problem was in what they were teaching. There can be no problem with the Bible, sense the Bible is absolute truth. The Bible has always been true and Bible will go right on being true, no matter what mans opinion is about it.

Have a little pity on that poor man, JohnR7. He was not privy to your amazing grasp of theology and biology.

 

[L'Anatra]

2nd April 2003 at 09:46 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #94
What they are being swayed from, most likely is not true Christianity.

That's certainly likely. And if that is the case, then what is the problem?

continuing JohnR7's post...
It depends on what you mean by "evolution." There are a lot of different theorys out there.

Would you mind telling us what those theories are?

continuing JohnR7's post...
God is all in all. He has the answer for every question, the solution for every problem. There is nothing to difficult for God.

Agreed.

continuing JohnR7's post...
I am glad you think you know what I believe. But I really doubt if you do. It is rare that I would share my personal faith with people, because it is personal, special to me and I do not subject it to others attacking and tearing it down. 

I never said I know what you believe. I don't care what you believe. I said I know you misrepresent the positions of people considerably more knowledgable in their fields than you are.

continuing JohnR7's post...
Are you calling me a liar? Ok, lets get it out on the table here. What did I say that you would consider a lie?

I'm not sure what you mean by this question. No, I'm not calling you a liar. I certainly mean no disrespect. I was simply trying to assertain whether or not you realize truth may not be what you consider it to be. This is a situation we must all deal with. It is, however, not a question of science. Science will never explain everything regarding our existence because it can't. Humans are spiritual creatures. Science doesn't deal with the spiritual, so it can't be blamed for any supposed spiritual "degradation" that has taken place over human history.

Nothing changed when the Theory of Evolution was introduced, just like nothing changed when the heliocentric model of the solar system was propounded. People just have another crutch they can blame the supposed "fall" of morality in society on.

I've come to feel from reading your posts over the past few months that you grow overly distressed when someone questions your personal system of beliefs. For a man 51 years of age, resorting to simple insults like "grade A jerk," is a little low, do you not agree?

continuing JohnR7's post...
Darwin was a student of natural theology. Somewhere along the way, he decided that he could no longer believe or accept what he had learned about natural theology. It never occured to him that maybe the problem was in what they were teaching. There can be no problem with the Bible, sense the Bible is absolute truth. The Bible has always been true and Bible will go right on being true, no matter what mans opinion is about it.

I agree with you on the part about the Bible. Our argument, however, stems from the fact that you seem to think your interpretation of the Bible is the only one. The "absolute" truth appears to be only relative, John. While we're living on this planet, we will never know the "absolute" truth no matter how many times we read the Bible or study the world. No matter how long we live. That's what faith is for, John. We're supposed to do the best we can with what we have.

You stated that you have your own personal set of beliefs that you don't tend to share with others (I assume they are different beliefs than many others have, which is great), yet (from my standpoint) you seem very arrogant and appear to find joy in tossing all other points of view out the window and in telling others they're likely being lied to (not to put words in your mouth). Do you not see the irony in this situation?

 

[L'Anatra]

2nd April 2003 at 11:47 PM Gracchus said this in Post #97
Right on track, as usual, JohnR7. There is very truth indeed, in any of your assertions.

Hehe, I'm still waiting for JohnR7's response to that quote, which was originally mine.

 

[JohnR7]

2nd April 2003 at 11:47 PM Gracchus said this in Post #97Well, of course not. Anyone who doesn't share your views can't be a TRUE Christian.

The only view you need to worry about is God's view. There really is a God and He is the one that has the power to save and the power to destroy, not me. We are just here to be a light to the world and to blow a trumpet of warning.