What keeps believers saved? O.T. & N.T.

Hello all.
Im going to be out for the day so I wont be posting much till tonite.

I will get to new posts this evening. Just dont want anyone to think Ive forgotten you

See you all this evening

SLStrohkirch said:

Christ does not rule us in that he forces us to follow him if we dont WANT to. The key word is WANT which is a word of the WILL. Our WILL must be suppressed by the Holy Spirit if we are to be in Christ and remain in him so if we allow our will to have free reign Christ will not stop us from leaving him (rejection).

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But you are ignoring that he said he would lose none of all that is given him.

You are now saying he will lose some of all that is given him? When I say "lose", I mean that some that are given him will become "unsaved" and be sent to the Lake of Fire with the unbeliever. That contradicts the Lord's words if that is what you are saying.


Now, if you are saying that not all who come to him will remain faithful to God's plan for their lives, and that he keeps them saved by the power of his justice having been fulfilled on the Cross for all sins? Fine.

But, Follower has been telling us that if someone who is saved. Been given to Christ by the Father. That if they do certain things wrong? That Jesus will lose some of all he was given. That calls Jesus a liar.

John 6:37-40 niv
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

If you add to that....

Romans 8:38-39
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

If we could walk away from our salvation? That would have to mean that we are not a part of this creation. For nothing in creation can do that!

You were not a part of this creation? The Bible is making it clear that we can not lose our salvation from the Lake of Fire. What we need to interpret correctly, is that we can lose something very important.


We can lose out on the opportunity we have been given (after salvation) of glorifying Christ in our body. There are crowns and rewards for this to be given. Those we can lose! We are told we can lose them.

And, if we do? We will be facing destruction and fire that the Bible speaks of. But, this destruction and fire is not speaking of the Lake of Fire. Those who think we can lose our salvation have blurred the distinction between the two, and think the believer can end up being destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 niv

I keep asking, and get no straight answer. How can one be at a total loss of rewards? This one did nothing correctly, other than believe in Christ. And, it says that he is yet saved? He did nothing to please God? How is it that this one does not lose his salvation? But, others they claim, do?

What more did he need to do to be sent to the Lake of Fire? These folks claim a believer will go if he fails to please God by rejecting God's will for their lives.

They fail to see their own contradictions in their own logic. And, on top of that, continue as if the words in these passages have no meaning what so ever, as far as what they do convey to the normal reader? I ask. Is there really a debate going on here? Or, a matter of deafness and blindness which can not see nor hear what it says? Can you debate another who refuses to acknowledge what a passage says? Ignores it? And then, moves on with their premise as if nothing was said? Is that revealing sound perspicacity?

No wonder these ones end up getting flammed! I just came out of one thread that was locked, due to one who is now trying his wares all over again in this thread. He does nothing but ignore and push.

Its like a driver who sits at a green light and ignores it. Then complains when everyone behind him is honking their horns and getting angry. He then tries to tell the officer that these folks are disturbing the peace. Its not debate. Its a method of manipulating others by willfully ignoring the light color, and enjoying the pain they try to inflict on the law abiding citizen.

John 3:18 niv
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Its believing in his name that saves us. Its following after his plan and will after we are saved, that reaps God's grace and rewards. We can lose our rewards, but we can not lose what we have already done! That is, believing in his name.

The light is Green..... GeneZ

<Follower> said:

So do you mean that we can "believe'' in the Christ, accept the free gift, then not repent of sins and continue in them and still God MUST accept us ?

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I did. You saying I am not saved?


Grace and peace, GeneZ

genez said:

Now? Please, show us some preaching to Gentiles not guilty of this sin, which tells them to repent? Acts is filled with examples of people getting saved. I was not able to find one where the Gentiles were told to repent and believe. They were either told to believe. Or, simply believed without being told to do so. Now? Can you find any passages about salvation and having to repent, that did not include those who had been already exposed to Christ and were refusing to believe?

I would appreciate the correction if you do!

Thanks! Grace and peace, GeneZ

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If your only qualification of that verse I gave being applicable to us is Exposure to Christ and refusing to believe Then by your own words you have admitted that we all need to repent..... By choosing the world we reject Christ on a daily basis. Please don't tell me its only applicable to those that actually saw Christ in his time here on earth and in that situation only. The word is a living book. Please interperet it as such.

<Follower> said:

So do you mean that we can "believe'' in the Christ, accept the free gift, then not repent of sins and continue in them and still God MUST accept us ?

this is why we look at the WHOLE context of salvation presented.

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First answer these questions!

1. What is salvation?

2. What causes Spiritual Death?

3. What did Jesus do at the Cross?

4. What was so signifigant about Christ being raised from the dead?

genez said:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 niv

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."​

I keep asking, and get no straight answer. How can one be at a total loss of rewards? This one did nothing correctly, other than believe in Christ. And, it says that he is yet saved? He did nothing to please God? How is it that this one does not lose his salvation? But, others they claim, do?

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Just becuase you REFUSE to accept an answer does not invalidate that answer.

You have been decisely shown what this passage is.

HE WILL BE SAVED AS HE ISNT REJECTING GOD, BUT ONLY TEACHING SOME ERROR THAT OBVIOUSLY ISNT HERETICAL ENOUGH TO KEEP HIM FROM SALVATION ALTOGETHER.
.
YOUVE BEEN PROVIDED WITH THIS ABOUT 20 TIMES NOW AND STILL KEEP INSISTING ON PARTIALLY QUOTING THE PASSAGE.

I sit here and ask myself ''why'' do you keep only posting PART of the passage


So here, Ill post it yet AGAIN......and again ....and again ....and again ....and again ....and again ....and again ....and again ....and again.

For as long as it takes.

And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.

I gave you milk to drink, and not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it.
Indeed, neither are you now yet able; for you are still carnal.

For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal, and walking according to human principles?
For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord has given to each one?

I planted, Apollos watered, but God gives the increase.

So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

For we are coworkers with God; you are God's field, you are God's building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise architect I have laid the foundation, but another builds on it.

But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

For no other foundation can anyone lay, other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work shall be made manifest; for the Day shall reveal it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall test each one's work, as to what sort it is.

If anyone's work which he has built remains, he shall receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, but so as through fire.
(1Co 3:1-15 EMTV)

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1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burnt,.... If any minister's doctrine he has preached shall be destroyed and disappear, shall be disapproved of, and rejected by the churches, not being able, to bear the light and heat of the fire of God's word:

he shall suffer loss; of all his labour and pains he has been at, in collecting together such trifling, useless, and inconsistent things; and of all that glory and popular applause he might expect from men, on account of them, and which was the snare that drew him into such a way of preaching:

but he himself shall be saved; with an everlasting salvation; not by his ministerial labours, much less by his wood, hay, and stubble, which will be all burnt up; but through his being, notwithstanding all the imperfections of his ministry, upon the foundation Christ:

yet so as by fire; with much difficulty, and will be scarcely saved; see 1Pe_4:17 with great danger, loss, and shame; as a man that is burnt out of house and home, he escapes himself with his own life, but loses all about him: so the Syriac version reads it, àéê ãîï ðåøà, "as out of the fire": see Zec_3:2. Or the sense is, that he shall be tried by the fire of the word, and convinced by the light of it of the errors, irregularities, and inconsistencies of his ministry; either in his time of life and health, or on a death bed; and shall have all his wood, hay, and stubble burnt up, for nothing of this kind shall he carry with him in his judgment to heaven; only the gold, silver, and precious stones; and will find that the latter doctrines, and not the former, will only support him in the views of death and eternity.

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The rest of your agurment has been refuted previously......


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Spiritualyalive said:

First answer these questions!

1. What is salvation?

2. What causes Spiritual Death?

3. What did Jesus do at the Cross?

4. What was so signifigant about Christ being raised from the dead?

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I dont remember signing up for this course.
Answer your own questions.
Im more interested in dealing what what is presented, not allowing you all to drag me into some little game

genez said:

I did. You saying I am not saved?


Grace and peace, GeneZ

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Ill give it one more shot.
The very next time you twist what i say like that, youre going on ignore with the other two.

<Follower> said:

I dont remember signing up for this course.
Answer your own questions.
Im more interested in dealing what what is presented, not allowing you all to drag me into some little game

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Since your premise is off on all of these. They have to be addressed before we can go any further!

Spiritualyalive said:

Since your premise is off on all of these. They have to be addressed before we can go any further!

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then you answer them and Ill tell you if I agree or disagree.
I went thru this with AV and Im not interested.

follower, I'd appreciate and answer to my question (#98) when you get a chance...

frumanchu said:

follower, I'd appreciate and answer to my question (#98) when you get a chance...

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If we are warned against falling away, doesnt that show that possibly you are not entirely understanding your OSAS passages?

1. What is salvation?
Salvation is Christ life in you. Being Spiritual alive rather than dead.

2. What causes Spiritual Death?
Sin is the only thing that can cause Spiritual death.


3. What did Jesus do at the Cross?
He took away ALL my sin and paid for it perminatly. Since Jesus TOOK AWAY AND PAID FOR ALL MY SINS it's imposible for me to Spiritualy die again ever.

4. What was so signifigant about Christ being raised from the dead?
He was Spiritualy Dead and now is Spiritualy Alive again. He has given that life to me who was Spiritualy dead.

<Follower> said:

If we are warned against falling away, doesnt that show that possibly you are not entirely understanding your OSAS passages?

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No , it just raises the question of assurance to a whole new level

<Follower> said:

If we are warned against falling away, doesnt that show that possibly you are not entirely understanding your OSAS passages?

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That depends on a few things. First is whether or not the assumption that warnings against falling away are being given specifically and exclusively to believers is correct. The second is whether or not the assumption that we actually have an explicit and undeniable example in Scripture of a true believer losing their salvation is valid.

I explained earlier the covenant framework found in Scripture, and added to it in agreement with you the fact that none of us (Paul, Peter, et al included) know the hearts of men. Both of this principles undermine the validity of the assumptions above.

So again, I'm curious to know what your explanation is for the clear theme of those verses I provided.

Spiritualyalive said:

1. What is salvation?
Salvation is Christ life in you. Being Spiritual alive rather than dead.

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This one depends.
Do you mean this in a ''new agey'' kind of way?

2. What causes Spiritual Death?
Sin is the only thing that can cause Spiritual death.

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What is sin?
a ''sidestep'' .....plain disoebedience, just like Adam in the garden.
Is it more of a mystical taint in your opinion?

3. What did Jesus do at the Cross?
He took away ALL my sin and paid for it perminatly. Since Jesus TOOK AWAY AND PAID FOR ALL MY SINS it's imposible for me to Spiritualy die again ever.

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and yet

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:26-29 KJV)-----------------


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(Heb 6 KJV)

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4. What was so signifigant about Christ being raised from the dead?

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He was Spiritualy Dead and now is Spiritualy Alive again. He has given that life to me who was Spiritualy dead.

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Yup.
and as long as you do not do what is shown in those passages, you should be fine