What keeps believers saved? O.T. & N.T.

shotpull · Apr 27, 2005

genez...

Just because we are called to believe and recieve doesn't mean we don't have to repent they all go hand in hand. If you read on in Acts...

Acts 26:20

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their (what???) repentance by their deeds.

this is well after the cross...

GenemZ · Apr 27, 2005

<Follower> said:
yeah.....heh heh......silly me.....I thought JESUS was the one with the authority to define the unforgivable sin.
What was I thinking

Then, why doesn't Jesus have the same authority to define who is to be saved? Is the following another Jesus from the one you just mentioned? Or, is he the same one? It seems from what you tell us, that you might believe in more than one Jesus. Is that so?

John 6:37-40 niv
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Does this Jesus have the same authority to define who will be saved? Or, is this one his body double? This one says that he will lose none of all that the Father gives him. If that is true? How can that be? For, you have been telling us that another Jesus has over ridden this one's authority and said that he will lose some.

Does he have the same last name?

Grace and still amused, GeneZ

<Follower> · Apr 27, 2005

genez said:
Then, why doesn't Jesus have the same authority to define who is to be saved? Is the following another Jesus from the one you just mentioned? Or, is he the same one? It seems from what you tell us, that you might believe in more than one Jesus. Is that so?

NIce try.
you just keep right on distorting my words as well as Christs.

John 6:37-40 niv
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

and He wont make them stay either if they reject.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

'lose' no, let reject Him, yes.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Click to expand...

Therefore, brothers, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies having been washed with clean water.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

And let us consider one another for the stirring up of love and of good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, just as is the custom for some, but exhorting one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery zeal being about to devour the adversaries.

Anyone disregarding the law of Moses dies without compassions on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

By how much worse punishment, do you think, will he be deemed worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, and has regarded as common the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
(Heb 10:19-31 EMTV)

------------------

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powerful deeds of the age to come,
and having fallen away,
to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,
and hold Him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6 EMTV)

frumanchu · Apr 27, 2005

MOD HAT ON

Let's leave out the personal attacks everyone, shall we? There's an Ignore button there if you have trouble.

MOD HAT OFF

<Follower> · Apr 27, 2005

frumanchu said:
MOD HAT ON

Let's leave out the personal attacks everyone, shall we? There's an Ignore button there if you have trouble.

MOD HAT OFF

thanks for stepping in

Spiritualyalive · Apr 27, 2005

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Now compare the Legalistic attitude of some here to this! Pretty simular huh?

frumanchu · Apr 27, 2005

<Follower> said:
thanks for stepping in

That post was to ALL present.

GenemZ · Apr 27, 2005

shotpull said:
genez...

Just because we are called to believe and recieve doesn't mean we don't have to repent they all go hand in hand. If you read on in Acts...

Acts 26:20

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their (what???) repentance by their deeds.

this is well after the cross...

Go look at the context of that passage. Paul was in Jerusalem and all of Judea when he mentioned repentance. This whole thing started in Acts 21, when he was in Jerusalem where the Jews tried to kill him. The jews needed to change their thinking about Christ. Repentance, means to change ones mind.

Now, please find me one passage where the actual preaching to Gentiles speaks of repenting and believing? I am waiting for it. If you find one, I will appreciate the correction. For I do not want to be walking in error.

As for preaching to Gentiles? They did not need to repent about what they thought of Christ. For they were not involved with all the counter thinking that was brewing in Israel where Jesus preached and was well known.

Here is a typical Gentile evangelism to be found in the book of Acts....

Acts 10:39-45 niv
"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosenby us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles."

These Gentiles all became born again while listening to the message. They were not told to believe. They were never told to repent of anything! They simply believed while they were listening. Presto! SAVED!

Acts 16:31 niv
"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household."

No repentance mentioned there either....

Grace and peace, GeneZ

<Follower> · Apr 27, 2005

frumanchu said:
That post was to ALL present.

uh yeah.....I figured as much

<Follower> · Apr 27, 2005

Spiritualyalive said:
Now compare the Legalistic attitude of some here to this! Pretty simular huh?

Guess we can just throw the bible out into the trash then........

Therefore, brothers, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies having been washed with clean water.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

And let us consider one another for the stirring up of love and of good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, just as is the custom for some, but exhorting one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery zeal being about to devour the adversaries.

Anyone disregarding the law of Moses dies without compassions on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

By how much worse punishment, do you think, will he be deemed worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, and has regarded as common the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
(Heb 10:19-31 EMTV)

------------------

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powerful deeds of the age to come,
and having fallen away,
to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,
and hold Him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6 EMTV)

<Follower> · Apr 27, 2005

Acts 16:31 niv
"They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedyou and your household."

No repentance mentioned there either....

So do you mean that we can "believe'' in the Christ, accept the free gift, then not repent of sins and continue in them and still God MUST accept us ?

this is why we look at the WHOLE context of salvation presented.

<Follower> · Apr 27, 2005

These Gentiles all became born again while listening to the message. They were not told to believe. They were never told to repent of anything! They simply believed while they were listening. Presto! SAVED!

Hmmmm.

Act 3:19 Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

Mar 6:12 And they went out and proclaimed that men should repent.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 2:38 KJV)

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Somehow I think its a given that its a package deal

shotpull · Apr 28, 2005

After reading this verse:

Acts 26:20

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

your reply is ...

genez said:
Now, please find me one passage where the actual preaching to Gentiles speaks of repenting and believing? I am waiting for it. If you find one, I will appreciate the correction. For I do not want to be walking in error.

GeneZ

are you serious?

also on a slightly different note,

Acts 3:19, 20

Repent, then, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Refreshing sounds like a good thing to me maybe Repentance is too...

If we haven't repented we haven't turned from our sin.

It's simple.

GenemZ · Apr 28, 2005

<Follower> said:
So do you mean that we can "believe'' in the Christ, accept the free gift, then not repent of sins and continue in them and still God MUST accept us ?

this is why we look at the WHOLE context of salvation presented.

OK..... Thanks for the detailed and informative post.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

GenemZ · Apr 28, 2005

<Follower> said:
Hmmmm.

Somehow I think its a given that its a package deal

Thanks for another detailed informative post....

Grace and peace, GeneZ

GenemZ · Apr 28, 2005

shotpull said:
also on a slightly different note,

Acts 3:19, 20

Repent, then, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Refreshing sounds like a good thing to me maybe Repentance is too...

If we haven't repented we haven't turned from our sin.

It's simple.

Try starting at verse 15?

"You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see."

These ones had Jesus killed. Obviously, they needed to have a change of mind towards believing who he was. They were guilty of the sin of murder. They felt the guilt. Peter was telling them by changing their minds towards Christ, and believing in him.... they will be given the experience of having the burden of their sins towards Christ forgiven. God was showing mercy over those worthy of death in offering them salvation.

Now? Please, show us some preaching to Gentiles not guilty of this sin, which tells them to repent? Acts is filled with examples of people getting saved. I was not able to find one where the Gentiles were told to repent and believe. They were either told to believe. Or, simply believed without being told to do so. Now? Can you find any passages about salvation and having to repent, that did not include those who had been already exposed to Christ and were refusing to believe?

I would appreciate the correction if you do!

Thanks! Grace and peace, GeneZ

GenemZ · Apr 28, 2005

<Follower> said:
'lose' no, let reject Him, yes.

That was said in response to me saying....

Quote:

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

If they reject him?

He still has all of everyone who came to him? Mind explaining that one a bit better? Can you give an example from life? Illustration, perhaps?

I am very really curious as to how you resolved this one. So far, your answer makes no sense to my way of thinking. So! Please educate me how he said he will lose none of all who come to him? Yet, he will allow some to reject him after they are his? These will not be lost from all he was given?

Does anyone else out there see the dilemma I am in? I know he is making perfect sense to himself. But, it makes no sense to me. Can anyone help him out, and explain it better than he can?

John 6:39 niv
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

His response?

<Follower> said:
'lose' no, let reject Him, yes.

How can Jesus not lose some of all that he was given, if he allows for some of them to reject him? Is Follower saying that those who are the Lord's, are free to alienate themselves from his grace? But, that they remain his?

And, even though they hide themselves from the Lord, he will still raise them up at the last day? Can someone help us out and clarify? It seems that Follower is saying that we can not lose our salvation, but I know that's not what he believes.

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated!

Grace and peace, GeneZ

AVBunyan · Apr 28, 2005

1. What do these verses say - not what do they mean but what do they say?

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

2. Are there any requirements given here? Now, I know you can back back under the law before Calvary in the Gospels and the OT but are there any here?

3. Are these verses written specifically to the body of Christ after Calvary?

4. Do you have the forgiveness of sins or not?

5. If you do then what is this forgiveness based upon?

Thank you -

God bless

nephilimiyr · Apr 28, 2005

<Follower> said:
Now do a search and track down some of Nephilymer (?) and Cygnus' recent posts.
Its funny you are quick to say this to me, but were not around when they were behaving very unchristlike.

I haven't put you on ignor follower but I have been purposely avoiding replying to anything that you post for a number of different reasons. But since this isn't the first time you have used my name to tell everyone how unchristlike I treated you in that closed thread I feel the need to at least say something.

For one, I admitt that I over did it a bit with you but you played a major roll in the reason why I did. I know you want everyone to believe that you were an inocent bystander who did nothing to provoke my ungodly wrath upon you but I have been in these forums for a long time and everyone who knows me knows that the few times I have ever let loose like that was because for a good reason, it wasn't for a joy ride. You don't seem to accept the fact that you provoked me, that you did play a part in getting that thread closed just as much as anybody and that you weren't exactly showing any kindness or christian like manners towards me either. Quite frankly, I was so mad at the time I was ready to throw my pc out the window. No, I am not proud of myself in saying that and unfortunately I don't have the patience that reformationist has.

I accept the fact that I did wrong and I'm here right now, in public, offering my heart felt apologies. It wont happen again and mainly because this will not in anyway get me to respond to any of your posts in the future. However, if you don't accept my apology and continue to use my name and slander it across these boards you will recieve another reply from me.

I hope and pray you accept my heart felt apology and drop this whole unfortunate matter for good. I truely am sorry that things worked out the way they did and it simply wont happen again.

Good Day and God Bless!

Since follower might still have me on ignor could someone please quote this post so that he can see it. I'd really appreciate that!

SPALATIN · Apr 28, 2005

genez said:
That was said in response to me saying....

Quote:

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

If they reject him?

He still has all of everyone who came to him? Mind explaining that one a bit better? Can you give an example from life? Illustration, perhaps?

I am very really curious as to how you resolved this one. So far, your answer makes no sense to my way of thinking. So! Please educate me how he said he will lose none of all who come to him? Yet, he will allow some to reject him after they are his? These will not be lost from all he was given?

Does anyone else out there see the dilemma I am in? I know he is making perfect sense to himself. But, it makes no sense to me. Can anyone help him out, and explain it better than he can?

John 6:39 niv
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

His response?

How can Jesus not lose some of all that he was given, if he allows for some of them to reject him? Is Follower saying that those who are the Lord's, are free to alienate themselves from his grace? But, that they remain his?

And, even though they hide themselves from the Lord, he will still raise them up at the last day? Can someone help us out and clarify? It seems that Follower is saying that we can not lose our salvation, but I know that's not what he believes.

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated!

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Christ does not rule us in that he forces us to follow him if we dont WANT to. The key word is WANT which is a word of the WILL. Our WILL must be suppressed by the Holy Spirit if we are to be in Christ and remain in him so if we allow our will to have free reign Christ will not stop us from leaving him (rejection).

What keeps believers saved? O.T. & N.T.

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