What is your (your church's) view of Islam?

[Kareem]

I am very interested after speaking with several Orthodox christians about differing opinions of Islam. I am open and interested in all views: good or bad.

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

The Orthodox Church, of course, says that it has the true religion, the fullness of truth. This is to be expected. But my understanding is that this does not mean anyone who's not Orthodox (or Christian) is automatically doomed to Hell. God is the judge, not us, and it's presumptuous to think we know who will be saved.

I'm not entirely sure what to think about Islam, since I find so many different kinds of information about it, and you can find bias anywhere. I don't agree with what many of the fundamentalist sects do, or laws/actions against Christians in some countries, or Islamist terrorism, that sort of thing. But years ago, while doing some research (I like writing stories about the supernatural), I joined a Usenet newsgroup about the jinn. There were Muslims there (do you prefer Muslim or Moslem?) who had fascinating descriptions of their religion, legends of the jinn, experiences and laws regarding the jinn, etc. It is interesting to read about other religions, while taking care not to leave my own. It's good to interact with people of other religions and learn that they're just people, not out to eat your children or anything like that.

I don't agree with Islam, but I don't have anything against the Muslim woman who I sometimes see dropping off her children at my son's school. She seems nice, maybe shy like me. I will hold the door for her if she is coming after me.

 

[Kareem]

But that's just it, what exactly do you not agree with? I'm just extremely curious is all. This is just something I am curious to understand. I'm not upset.

 

[Macarius]

Peace be with you!

I respect your open-mindedness and courage in asking a question like that to a group like Orthodox Christians, given the history of our two groups. I'll do my best to answer in good faith and as honestly as possible (so much of what I say won't be "proper" Orthodox theology, as I am anything but a "proper" Orthodox Christians when it gets right down to it).

First, I should note that I'm a convert, and an American by ancestry (specifically, a combination of German, English, and Scott). I teach history and world religions for a living, which may give me a certain bias.

On the positive side of things:

• Muslims, by and large, are wonderful people. I've met and been friends with many, and, incidently, most Muslim cultures have excellent food, which naturally endears them to me
• I have a deep respect for several aspects of Islam:
  • First and foremost, devotion to God and the serious, reverential attitude with which religious matters are approached by the majority of Muslims I've met. Just as in Christianity, there is a lot of "nominalism" (going through the motions) in Islam, but there is also much life and vibrancy. I think the number one thing the (secular) West fails to understand about some (if not all) Islamic cultures is that religion guides all of life. This used to be true of Western cultures, but secularism has driven a wedge between public and private life, placing religion squarely in the private (much to my, and many people's, frustration). I often find I have MORE in common, when it comes to how we approach our religions, with Muslims than with Western secularists (be they religious or not).
  • The emphasis on prayer, fasting, and charity is wonderful. I love the central role they take.
  • The universal (or Catholic, to borrow a Christian phrase) spirit of Islam. That God is God for all peoples - and that this is given an experiential reality in the Hajj - is beautiful to me.
  • Jihad, properly understood as a war against all parts of myself which are not in submission to God, is also marvelous and to be imitated. We should not rest until the whole self can say "There is no God but God" - and not just cognitively, but in reality. In Christianity, we pray often, "God, Thy will be done." It has a similar meaning of having God as sovereign over all parts of ourselves.
  • Islam, as an historic culture, has much to offer that is unique and beautiful. It needs to be celebrated more for the role it played in continuing the intellectual civilization of the ancient world while Western Europe was rolling about in the dark ages, and its contributions in science, architecture, art, mathematics, and medicine are unparalleled during the height of both the early Arabic empires (700's - 800's AD on the Christian calendar) and the Ottoman empires ought to be more celebrated. And like I said: great food!
  • As a story, Islam's beginnigs are fantastic and compelling. Furthermore, the literary quality of the Quran marks it as among the best pieces of literature in history. I always enjoy covering this story in my history class, because the students are riveted by it.

Admittedly, there are things I disagree with in Islam:

• Much of the core of Islam is taken directly from Eastern Christianity (including the emphasis on asceticism, prayer, fasting, alms, and even pilgrimage [though the Hajj is something unique]). Mohammed, to my view, did not so much contribute as adapt what was already being taught.
• What he DID do, however, was detract some teachings that are often misunderstood by Islam, and some which I consider necessary.
  • The Trinity: we don't worship 3 gods, but ONE God who is, in His very essence, a community. Both Islam and Christianity teach that God is love and that God is unchanging. But if God is unchanging love, whom did He love prior to creation? In Christianity, we teach that God is community (love) in His essence; in Islam, to me, there is no one to love but the singular, the monad - God is selfish love in that vision, whereas the Trinity allows God to be selfless love (between the three persons) in Christianity.
  • The Incarnation: In Islam, there is a barrier between God and humanity. At best, we can hope to live a moral life of service to God, but that barrier can never be crossed. In Christianity, God comes down to us (as we could never ascend to God in our finitude), and in this incredible act of self-emptying, God unites to us so that we may be fully with God - this is completed on the cross, where God enters into even our darkest place by entering into death and uniting to us even there. This being the very meaning of "salvation" to the early Christians, Islam's rejection of it robs Jesus of the core of His purpose and message (even though Islam respects Him as a prophet).

This unity between God and man is accomplished for us in the sacramental life - something entirely missing from Islam, but witnessed to in every early Christian source. It is the most serious detraction, to me.
​

• • The Tradition of the Church: Islam makes claims about history - namely that the followers of Christ failed to maintain His true teachings. However, these claims are made by someone in a radically different culture, 550 years removed from the process. Those closest to Christ, the Apostles, left us many texts (a far better historical witness than to many religions in their early days), and their followers left us texts, and their followers, and so forth. It isn't that difficult to establish the key teachings of Christianity from within this witness. As an historian, I recognize the inherent fallibility of any source, but if I have to chose between one that is primary and knew Christ personally, and one so far removed as Islam, I have difficulty believing the claims of Islam against Christianity. It appears, historically, that Christianity did preserve the teachings of Christ, but that these disagreed with what Mohammed wanted to teach, and as such they were modified by Islam (rather than Christianity failing to uphold Christ's teachings and Mohammed restoring them).
• I also lament the fact that, akin to Judaism, there is a concept of Holy War from the very beginning of Islam. I'm not referring to the monsterous actions of the terrorists of today - I know Mohammed and Islam condemns the killing of innocents. What I'm referring to is that Mohammed, the Prophet of Islam, picked up the sword and waged warfare - even "civil" warfare still involves killing God's creation. Even Mohammed and Saladin killed. That is the nature of war. Christianity, to be certain, HAS "holy war" in its history (though mostly in the West; the East always considered violence a sin and never an act of spirituality). However, this was a late abberation in Christianity. In Islam it is part of the foundation. Mohammed killed. Christ died rather than kill. The martyr, to the Christian, can only be one who is killed without fighting back - who dies as Christ died. This is not weakness, but rather the paramount of strength: that the world can throw even its worst against us, and we will not respond (or shouldn't respond) with evil in return.

So when I am told that Islam is a religion of peace, I must respectfully disagree. It is not, for its foundation involved violence, and it has since then not ceased to use violence (or the threat of violence) to advance itself. It has advanced by other means, but this imperialist tendency of Islam is at its core, historically speaking, and remains a strong and dangerous current of its culture. The evil of "radical" Islam (the violent terrorists) is an extreme expression of this part of Islam, but it didn't spring up from no-where. One can look at the very life of Mohammed and see violence on behalf of protecting Islam as justified (even if the methods of these terrorists are not). That, to be blunt, worries me, and I will resist it in the name of the God who loves peace, and the God who died, rather than kill His creation.
​

• A final note... I must admit a certain historical bias in myself. I LOVE Orthodoxy, and Orthodox cultures have been raped and pillaged by Islam historically (even as, occasionally, they have benefited from Islam's protection against an even more aggressive Western Catholicism). Egypt was Islamicized by oppression and violence, as was Palestine, Syria, Persia, Byzantium, Greece, and much of the Balkans, North Africa, etc. At times, the two worked in tandem, but what is truly lamentable to me is that when something wrong is done to Islam by the West (as certainly occurs), it is often taken out on innocent Eastern Christians (like the Iraqi Chaldean Church) who have NOTHING to do with it. This is comparable to the secular West targetting Muslims because of terrorists in the Middle East.
• So, in history, I "root" against the Ottomans and the early Muslims... I don't think that's "right" of me (nor does it change the facts of history), but I identify with the Byzantine Church and, therefore, lament its territorial loss and the destruction and humiliation of its culture.

That last bit is, however, not the fault of modern Muslims. It would be nice, however, if Turkey remembered its history (that it is a conqueror), and gave the Orthodox in Turkey the freedom to practice and spread their religion (TRUE freedom, constitutionally guaranteed) rather than continuing to tolerate and turn a blind eye towards systemic and sometimes violent persecution. The same thing can be said in Kosovo (even as we lament and disown the acts of the Serbs in committing genocide). The Palestinian and Iraqi and Egyptian Christians are likewise targeted unfairly. Islam should be crying out against this. Where is the voice of Islam crying out AGAINST the terrorists and the extremists? Where is the voice of Islam crying out for tolerance and love towards these people of the book? I don't hear it, but then again, I may not be listening hard enough.

Forgive me,
Macarius

 

[Kareem]

Many of us ARE crying out; unfortunately, there is no one who cares. I think your views are very interesting, and indeed much of what you say has truth. I would like to ask you another question, this time concerning Israel and Palestine. Do you feel that the Israelis rightfully deserve the land ("Promise land") or do you think they should be forced to forge a Palestinian state? I would also like to inquire about your views of the "end of times," as I believe it is called.

 

[E.C.]

Many of us ARE crying out; unfortunately, there is no one who cares. I think your views are very interesting, and indeed much of what you say has truth. I would like to ask you another question, this time concerning Israel and Palestine. Do you feel that the Israelis rightfully deserve the land ("Promise land") or do you think they should be forced to forge a Palestinian state? I would also like to inquire about your views of the "end of times," as I believe it is called.

I'm not sure if you are asking Macarius or anybody here, but do you mind if I answer?

First, what is your name? Sorry, but I can not read Arabic and I can not type with Arabic characters on my computer!


With regards to Palestine, I personally think that the best solution would be one state with a confessionalist government similar to Lebanon and federalism.

I say this for a few reasons.

1) Water. Much of the conflict is about water. The Six-Day War in 1967 began largely because of water from the Jordan River. The Jews can not have exclusive water rights and the Palestinians can not have exclusive rights either because water is too valuable of a resource to keep from any human being.

2) Jerusalem. Jerusalem is very important to Jews, Muslims and Christians. The Jews keep the local Palestinian Christians from visiting Christian holy sites, yet they will allow the Western Christians to walk about with relative ease. The Muslims, at least the extremists, will keep anybody from going anywhere.

3) Minorities. Even within Israel certain groups of Jews are looked down upon by other groups of Jews. Within Islam Sunni and Shia tend to fight a lot. The Christians are persecuted by both the Jews and the Muslims and have been in Palestine since before the Muslims and since before most of the Jews. The Jews wish for any non-Jew to pack their bags and leave Israel while the Muslim extremists wish for any non-Muslim to pack their bags and leave as well. The Christians fall right in between the two.

With a system similar to that of Lebanon the future of everybody would, at least hypothetically, be secured. How could the government run if it does not have its prime minister because all of the Greek Orthodox Christians have been killed? How could the state run if it does not have its president because all of the Sunnis have been killed? How could parlaiment run without its speaker because all of the Jews have been killed? If a system was put in place where a position had to be filled by a member of a certain religious group, than I believe that the entire country would be forced to not kill that religious group.

4) The Barrier. I happen to know a Palestinian Christian who originally came from the area around Bethelehem. According to her, the Barrier has devestated her family and Bethelehem.

5) The settlements. I am a firm believer in that the settlements must be destroyed. The fact of the matter is, somebody was there before the Jews built their settlements. The settlements need to go.

 

[Annoula]

welcome to the CF.
please let us know your name in latin letters so we can call you by your name.

i can't elaborate on my personal view of Islam. i think it has some bad things and some good things.

to be honest, if i was to befriend someone i would take a devout muslim than a secular orthodox or non orthodox christian.

what i critisize in Islam is Peace. it talks about Peace but is not always in favour of it.
on the other hand, Christianity is about Love, but we christians are not really the examples of Love. this is what makes me feel bad about us.

and something Archibishop Anastasios of Albania wrote in one of his books (the translation may not be the best as i am translating from greek) :

"The commitment of the faithful (christian) is "to become neighbor" to anyone, irrespective of race, religion, language, specifically in critical situations".

i am not sure if Islam would accept such a statement, but then any free-minded religious or non religious person would. we are all of the same blood and flesh. we should not allow religions or other differences to separate us.

peace and love
it sounds like a good combination...

 

[tekiahteruah]

Christianity, to be certain, HAS "holy war" in its history (though mostly in the West; the East always considered violence a sin and never an act of spirituality).

I don't know about this. An honest reading of Byzatine history, in my mind, leaves no question that it was every bit as warlike and territorial as the West. I don't think there's much of a difference between the Christian West, the Christian East, and Islam here (except as you point out that the earliest Christian movement did not practice war.)

 

[Joshua G.]

Kareem,

There is not theological stance on the Palestinian/Israeli issue. Certainly many of us have opinions and perhaps strong ones. I for one am rather sympathetic to the Palestinian side in part because many Palestinians are my brothers and sister in Christ. While this is informed by my faith, it is not the Orthodox stance. But honestly, in the end, I support whatever brings peace. I also recognize that this is an intensly complicated issue that I could never truly appreciate so my opinion on the matter is rather worthless.

That that's KIND OF the point. EC has an opinion, I have mine, and many Orthodox have their opinion on the matter just as many of us have an opinion on the Cuban Embargo. There is no Orthodox consensus on this nor should their be.

You will find that many protestant forms of Christianity stake a lot of importance on Israel, rebuilding the temple, etc. Quite frankly, I find all of that odd at best and at worst (but realistically) distracting from the true purpose of Christianity. It becomes an obsession and a deterrent to Christ because it politicizes a faith that is apolitical by nature. Christ came for all people and he cares just as much about the plight of the Jewish mother who lost her son to a suicide bomber as the Palestinian family who's entire neighborhood was run down by a tank or who's children were "calateral" in a bombing mission from a few months ago. He doesn't look at their flag or political party but at their heart.

 

[Joshua G.]

His name is quite long, but he said we can call him Kareem (in another thread).

 

[Kristos]

I think we need to spend more time with them.

We do an annual friendship walk and visit the mosque, the Orthodox church and the Jewish synagogue. It's not much, but maybe a start.

 

[Joshua G.]

I don't know about this. An honest reading of Byzatine history, in my mind, leaves no question that it was every bit as warlike and territorial as the West. I don't think there's much of a difference between the Christian West, the Christian East, and Islam here (except as you point out that the earliest Christian movement did not practice war.)

And I have always wondered about that too. However, perhaps this would be a good new thread. I just don't want to distract from the main, more important point: Christianity is at its core a faith of peace. It is true that Christian leaders have called for violent uprisings in the past and much blood has been spilled in the name of "Christ", if you look at the Scriptures (in the NT, because it must be remembered that the OT had a much more finite nad earthly view on everything, whereas Christ's coming has redirected us beyond the mundane to the heavenly) and the Early Church, those Christian leaders don't have much of a leg to stand on. Aberrations can always happen. now, that is not to say that Christian people can not defend themselves, especially for the sake of protecting innocents, but that is wholly different from starting an offensive. That said, it can be argued that Christ has called us to be even more passive than that. But that may be an entirely different thread. The line between peaceful and coawardly can be quite easily blurred and I don't believe that I am the one to properly define that.

Joshua

 

[Kristos]

Maybe the Copts did the right thing...

 

[Joshua G.]

I think we need to spend more time with them.

We do an annual friendship walk and visit the mosque, the Orthodox church and the Jewish synagogue. It's not much, but maybe a start.

Do you enter the Mosque? I'm not sure if we are allowed to do that? I'm not trying to get legalistic on you and certainly I don't mean to judge at all. I'm just not sure that I would feel comfortable with a Church-led visit to the Mosque.

 

[Joshua G.]

Maybe the Copts did the right thing...

That may be...

OT: Kristos, are you really in Iceland? I find that fascinating. How many OC parishes are there?

 

[Lukaris]

I have not read this whole thread but I will say why any Christian cannot accept your prophet (no offense intended but I will be direct). We believe Jesus Christ is God incarnate; identified in the Gospel of John (1:1) as the Word "In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became God incarnate,"And the Word was made flesh. and dwelt among us. (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14). The alleged revelations of your prophet are false to us since revelation ended centuries before he was even born; "And if any man shall take away from the words of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19). This is not to say every Christian will be in heaven & every non Christian will be in hell, but this is how we must be faithful to God, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Joshua G.]

Well, every true Christian will be in heaven.

 

[Lukaris]

I should add, I am not assuming I will be in heaven and the OP would not be in heaven.

 

[Joshua G.]

Right, I wanted to clarify what may be evident to us but not to the OP (as far as our beliefs are concerned).

 

[Kristos]

I shop at Muslim owned stores often. Sometimes I wear my death to the world t-shirt. That always gets some looks