What is your view on Biological Immortality

[YeshuaFollower]

Could you then put me on the right track and point to scripture that illustrates your point? I was not aware of what you mentioned and would like to know more.

from what i know we can read in Genesis;

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

in 1 enoch we find;

	SECTION TWO​ Chapters 7-10, VII-X
Chapter 6, VI	Chapter 7, VII
1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters.	1. It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.
2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.'	2. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.
3. And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed,	3. Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise;
and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.'	4. And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.
4. And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath,	5. But they answered him and said; We all swear;
and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.'	6. And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.
5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.	7. Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations.
6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon,	Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon.
and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.	8. That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, and bound themselves by mutual execrations.
7. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaq1el, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel.	9. These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal.
8. These are their chiefs of tens.	These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.

from https://book-ofenoch.com/It
""is generally believed that the Apostles and the writers of the New Testament were fully aware of the Book of Enoch also called 1 Enoch. In fact, it is directly quoted in the Bible:


Jude 1:14-15 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, {15} To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him”""

I think it is plausible that the were the angels who fell with satan on earth that corrupted man at that time.
In any case if you find anything that disprove this let me know.

JFF

 

[Aaron112]

Without need nor purpose in trying to explain the origins of the fables,
just realize
that so much, or too much, supposed to be by or about or from any ancient writing, Enoch or otherwise,
is falsified, on purpose, for many centuries now, so much so that it is best to avoid the fables entirely as \
there is nothing learned from them that is needed , nor necessary to know, nor helpful.

 

[YeshuaFollower]

Without need nor purpose in trying to explain the origins of the fables,
just realize
that so much, or too much, supposed to be by or about or from any ancient writing, Enoch or otherwise,
is falsified, on purpose, for many centuries now, so much so that it is best to avoid the fables entirely as \
there is nothing learned from them that is needed , nor necessary to know, nor helpful.

I understand your point of view and will certainly consider it, who would then be the sons of god in gen 6:2? thanks,

JFF

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... You must know of the law of thermodynamics, they prove without a doubt that left on it's own, matter tend towards chaotic state. The amount of energy required to produce a complex level of biological life like we have on earth does not exist in this universe.

This is a popular fallacy. The 2nd law of thermodynamics refers to energetically closed systems. The Earth (and its living creatures) is not a closed system, it receives low entropy energy from the sun and radiates high entropy out to space. For every low entropy photon of visible light from the sun, life on Earth radiates about 20 photons of infrared radiation, a net increase in entropy.

So the inhabitants of Earth maintain and reduce their entropy using this incoming energy and increase the overall entropy of the universe by radiating high entropy energy.

The energy that the sun has given the Earth over 3.4 billion years is way more than necessary for the evolution of life over that period.

 

[SelfSim]

You know nothing, dare do the calculation yourself like i did ,but i doubt you can, even if it is a relatively simple matter. Please do not bother answering.

Huh?
How rude!

 

[dlamberth]

i am sorry but sometime is is necessary to be direct, some people will deny anything you say just for the fun of it, he is one of these, obviously to me this person does not understand the laws of thermodynamics.

Peace.

I suspect that FrumiousBandersnatch knows the laws of thermodynamics better than everyone else in this thread.
Just say'n!

And yes...how rude!

 

[SelfSim]

i am sorry but sometime is is necessary to be direct, some people will deny anything you say just for the fun of it, he is one of these, obviously to me this person does not understand the laws of thermodynamics.

I have had many encounters with @FrumiousBandersnatch and I can say from those experiences, he rarely (if ever?) denies anything 'just for fun of it'.

More to the point, if you have an issue with his post#45, it would be appropriate to outline your reasons, as I, for one, share in his viewpoint that there are several consistent ways to defend his central claim of 'popular fallacy', reasoning as he has, from the mainstream laws of thermodynamics. I am however, yet to see anyone demonstrating that 'these laws prove the existence of GOD'.

I couldn't care less about the claim of a group of scientists' unpublished peer reviews. This adds zero weight to you case, as far as I'm concerned , (FWIW).

 

[Hans Blaster]

You must know of the law of thermodynamics, they prove without a doubt that left on it's own, matter tend towards chaotic state.

Does it? Have you not heard of self-organizing systems?

Stars self organize from gas clouds. They become more concentrated and organized. Gravitation pulls the gas together and compresses it. The excess energy (and entropy) are radiated away into space. (You may have noticed this effect in the sky.)

The amount of energy required to produce a complex level of biological life like we have on earth does not exist in this universe.

Well... life exists on Earth which is in the Universe, so logically it must be so.

A group of scientists I worked with made these calculations, they were peer reviewed and the calculation found correct but it was not to publish unfortunately.

A group of scientists, you say?

Calculations, you say?

Peer reviewed, you say?

What was this for the Journal of Unrealistic Physics?

I don't believe your claim for one second.

So creation is the only option left, these laws prove the existence of GOD.

Do you know what a false dichotomy is?

Biological life for humans was initially set to 1000 years. GOD decided to reduce this to 120 years at one point, read the the first 5 books of your bible, it's in there.

It's in there, but I don't have to believe it. There is lots of unbelievable things in those books.

the max we now can expect to live is about 120 years.

The OP was about ways to exceed that biological limit.

If GOD wants man to live forever he will do so when we are ready, in physical form? there are higher form than physical called spiritual.

What is spiritual? How can I detect it?

 

[sjastro]

This is a popular fallacy. The 2nd law of thermodynamics refers to energetically closed systems. The Earth (and its living creatures) is not a closed system, it receives low entropy energy from the sun and radiates high entropy out to space. For every low entropy photon of visible light from the sun, life on Earth radiates about 20 photons of infrared radiation, a net increase in entropy.

So the inhabitants of Earth maintain and reduce their entropy using this incoming energy and increase the overall entropy of the universe by radiating high entropy energy.

The energy that the sun has given the Earth over 3.4 billion years is way more than necessary for the evolution of life over that period.

Here is the physics behind @FrumiousBandersnatch post using an example.
The Earth is an example of a thermodynamically open system.
It receives heat energy of magnitude Q from the Sun and radiates the same amount back into space of the same magnitude as energy is conserved.
Both the Sun and space can be considered as thermodynamic reservoirs which exchange heat with the Earth.

The entropy change ΔS₁ when the Earth absorbs heat from the Sun is ΔS₁ = -Q /T₁ and ΔS₂ is the entropy change when the heat is radiated into space ΔS₂ = Q /T₂.
The total entropy change ΔS = ΔS₁ + ΔS₂ = -Q /T₁ + Q /T₂. = Q(T₁ -T₂)/T₁T₂.
T₁ = 6000K the temperature of the Sun and T₂ = 280K the average surface temperature of the Earth hence;
ΔS = Q(T₁ -T₂)/T₁T₂ > 0.

Let’s plug in some numbers.
The Earth absorbs around 1.1 x 10¹⁷ J/second of energy from the Sun hence in a year the Earth absorbs (1.1 x 10¹⁷ J/sec) x (365 days/year) x (24 hours/day) x (60 min/hr) x (60 sec/min) = 3.5 x 10²⁴ J of energy from the sun.
It radiates the same amount back into space hence;

ΔS = ΔS₁ + ΔS₂ = (-3.5 x 10²⁴ J/6000K) + (3.5 x 10²⁴J /280K) = 1.2 x 10²² J/K .

Let’s consider an example the Earth’s oceans freezing over.
The heat energy Q ₗ is the latent heat of fusion multiplied by the mass of ocean water.
Q ₗ = (3.3 x 10⁵ J/kg) x (1.3 x 10²¹ kg) = 4.3 x 10²⁶ J.
Since water freezes at 273K, ΔS₀ = -Q ₗ/T = -4.3 x 10²⁶ J/273K = -1.6 x 10²⁴ J/K where ΔS₀ is the entropy change of the ocean.
Comparing the magnitudes of ΔS₀ and ΔS
ΔS₀/ΔS = (1.6 x 10²⁴ J/K ) / (1.2 x 10²² J/K) = 140.

Since ΔS is the entropy change over a year, the second law of thermodynamics will be violated if the oceans freeze over in 140 years or less as energy is not conserved since Q ₗ > Q.

If instead we consider the biomass or the total mass of all organisms on Earth (≈ 10¹⁶ kg) which evolves from a highly disorganized state at say 10,000K into a highly organized state at near absolute zero and perform the same calculations, the second law will be violated in about a month.
We know however evolutionary processes evolve over millions of years hence the second law of thermodynamics is not violated.

 

[Ligurian]

There is an entire movement called trans-humanism dedicated to supporting technologies and sciences such as Biotechnology,Nanotechnology, and Robotics to become Physically Immortal and "God-like" on this Earth via technology, I wanted to know Christian views on such a attempt does this conflict with your beliefs, are you against such things?


Here are a few articles about the subject
Link1 = What if aging weren’t inevitable, but a curable disease?
Link2 = Digital immortality: How your life’s data means a version of you could live forever
Link3 = Artificial Human Beings: The Amazing Examples Of Robotic Humanoids And Digital Humans
Link4 = Gene Therapy Is Successfully Treating a Common Form of Inherited Blindness

Any race that buried their dead with "grave goods" must have believed in the immortality of the soul.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I suspect that FrumiousBandersnatch knows the laws of thermodynamics better than everyone else in this thread.
Just say'n!

And yes...how rude!

Well, I'm no physicist, but I appreciate the vote of confidence!

Weirdly, @Jesusfollowerforever's posts have all vanished from the thread...

 

[SelfSim]

Weirdly, @Jesusfollowerforever's posts have all vanished from the thread...

Wiped clean by the hand of God then?

(Or, more likely, by the power of the science behind @sjastro's post#49).

 

[sjastro]

Wiped clean by the hand of God then?

(Or, more likely, by the power of the science behind @sjastro's post#49).

I also have the power of personal experience in failing to take into account the Earth is an open thermodynamic system.
Due to climate warming it is very rare for the air temperature at my location to drop below the freezing point.
To reduce my carbon footprint I decided to grow certain species of Acacia on my ten acre property which are not frost resistant.
Unfortunately I didn't take into account while the air temperature on a cold cloudless winter's nights was never less than 1⁰ C above freezing point, the ground not only radiated heat into the atmosphere but also directly into outer space.

As the result on occasions the ground temperature was below freezing and frost formed even though the air temperature wasn't and the saplings didn't survive.
Damn open thermodynamic systems!

 

[SelfSim]

I also have the power of personal experience in failing to take into account the Earth is an open thermodynamic system.
Due to climate warming it is very rare for the air temperature at my location to drop below the freezing point.
To reduce my carbon footprint I decided to grow certain species of Acacia on my ten acre property which are not frost resistant.
Unfortunately I didn't take into account while the air temperature on a cold cloudless winter's nights was never less than 1⁰ C above freezing point, the ground not only radiated heat into the atmosphere but also directly into outer space.

As the result on occasions the ground temperature was below freezing and frost formed even though the air temperature wasn't and the saplings didn't survive.
Damn open thermodynamic systems!

Hmm .. out of trying to visualise what you missed out on there, I was going to ask which species .. I went to the Wiki page but immediately lost interest in my own question when I saw this show stopper:

Acacia (in a broader sense) is repeatedly mentioned in the Book of Exodus, perhaps referring to Vachellia tortilis (previously known as Acacia raddiana), in regards to the construction of the Tabernacle. In 25:10, acacia wood is mentioned as the construction material for the Ark of the Covenant.

So you were planning on constructing a replica .. in order to test out the claims of 25:10, eh?

 

[sjastro]

Hmm .. out of trying to visualise what you missed out on there, I was going to ask which species .. I went to the Wiki page but immediately lost interest in my own question when I saw this show stopper:

So you were planning on constructing a replica .. in order to test out the claims of 25:10, eh?

The species is in fact Vachellia tortilis or the African acacia.

These African imitations evidently are not as as tough as the 1000 odd species of Australian Acacias.
On a more serious note DNA studies reveal Australian and Africa acacias shared a common ancestor when Australia and Africa were joined as part of the Gondwanaland supercontinent more than 180 million years ago.

Now that I have learnt from my mistake I had a small batch of Vachellia tortilis propagated from seeds and allowed to grow indoors for a few months before I planted them in the field.
Hopefully when winter comes they will be mature enough to withstand frosts.
I will probably cover them if temperature forecasts in winter are for clear nights and temperatures are lower than 3⁰ C.

Acacias hold great cultural significance for both Australia and Africa which has led to an issue about naming rights.

Wattle is an Aussie icon. So why did scientists end up in a fight over its scientific name?

The first wattles of the season are about to burst into fluffy pom-poms of resplendent gold and pale cream. But in the early 2000s, these plants were in the centre of one of the world's biggest botanical controversies.

www.abc.net.au

And no I am not going to build an Ark.

 

[sjastro]

Here is the physics behind @FrumiousBandersnatch post using an example.
The Earth is an example of a thermodynamically open system.
It receives heat energy of magnitude Q from the Sun and radiates the same amount back into space of the same magnitude as energy is conserved.
Both the Sun and space can be considered as thermodynamic reservoirs which exchange heat with the Earth.

The entropy change ΔS₁ when the Earth absorbs heat from the Sun is ΔS₁ = -Q /T₁ and ΔS₂ is the entropy change when the heat is radiated into space ΔS₂ = Q /T₂.
The total entropy change ΔS = ΔS₁ + ΔS₂ = -Q /T₁ + Q /T₂. = Q(T₁ -T₂)/T₁T₂.
T₁ = 6000K the temperature of the Sun and T₂ = 280K the average surface temperature of the Earth hence;
ΔS = Q(T₁ -T₂)/T₁T₂ > 0.

Let’s plug in some numbers.
The Earth absorbs around 1.1 x 10¹⁷ J/second of energy from the Sun hence in a year the Earth absorbs (1.1 x 10¹⁷ J/sec) x (365 days/year) x (24 hours/day) x (60 min/hr) x (60 sec/min) = 3.5 x 10²⁴ J of energy from the sun.
It radiates the same amount back into space hence;

ΔS = ΔS₁ + ΔS₂ = (-3.5 x 10²⁴ J/6000K) + (3.5 x 10²⁴J /280K) = 1.2 x 10²² J/K .

Let’s consider an example the Earth’s oceans freezing over.
The heat energy Q ₗ is the latent heat of fusion multiplied by the mass of ocean water.
Q ₗ = (3.3 x 10⁵ J/kg) x (1.3 x 10²¹ kg) = 4.3 x 10²⁶ J.
Since water freezes at 273K, ΔS₀ = -Q ₗ/T = -4.3 x 10²⁶ J/273K = -1.6 x 10²⁴ J/K where ΔS₀ is the entropy change of the ocean.
Comparing the magnitudes of ΔS₀ and ΔS
ΔS₀/ΔS = (1.6 x 10²⁴ J/K ) / (1.2 x 10²² J/K) = 140.

Since ΔS is the entropy change over a year, the second law of thermodynamics will be violated if the oceans freeze over in 140 years or less as energy is not conserved since Q ₗ > Q.

If instead we consider the biomass or the total mass of all organisms on Earth (≈ 10¹⁶ kg) which evolves from a highly disorganized state at say 10,000K into a highly organized state at near absolute zero and perform the same calculations, the second law will be violated in about a month.
We know however evolutionary processes evolve over millions of years hence the second law of thermodynamics is not violated.

To go into more detail about the calculations involving the Earth’s biomass, the specific heat defined as the amount of heat added per unit mass to raise the temperature by 1° C is used.
The average value for the Earth’s biomass is around 1.2 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹.

The amount of heat Qₘ released for a biomass going from a very high entropy state at 10,000 K to a very low state at ≈ 0 K, is;

Qₘ = [1.2 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹ x 10¹⁶ kg x (10,000 – 0)K] = 1.2 x 10²⁰ J.
ΔSₘ = Qₘ/T = (1.2 x 10²⁰ J)/273 K = 4.4 x 10¹⁷ J/K
ΔSₘ/ΔS = (4.4 x 10¹⁷ J/K) / (1.2 x 10²² J/K) = 0.00004.

Since ΔS is the entropy change over a year, the second law of thermodynamics will be violated if the biomass goes from a high to a low entropy state in 0.00004 x 12 = 0.005 months or less as energy is not conserved since Q ₘ > Q.
This will not occur since evolution occurs over large time scales.

 

[SelfSim]

To go into more detail about the calculations involving the Earth’s biomass, the specific heat defined as the amount of heat added per unit mass to raise the temperature by 1° C is used.
The average value for the Earth’s biomass is around 1.2 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹.

The amount of heat Qₘ released for a biomass going from a very high entropy state at 10,000 K to a very low state at ≈ 0 K, is;

Qₘ = [1.2 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹ x 10¹⁶ kg x (10,000 – 0)K] = 1.2 x 10²⁰ J.
ΔSₘ = Qₘ/T = (1.2 x 10²⁰ J)/273 K = 4.4 x 10¹⁷ J/K
ΔSₘ/ΔS = (4.4 x 10¹⁷ J/K) / (1.2 x 10²² J/K) = 0.00004.

Since ΔS is the entropy change over a year, the second law of thermodynamics will be violated if the biomass goes from a high to a low entropy state in 0.00004 x 12 = 0.005 months or less as energy is not conserved since Q ₘ > Q.
This will not occur since evolution occurs over large time scales.

0.005 months is only about 3.65 hours!
We'd see that happening if it were so.

 

[sjastro]

0.005 months is only about 3.65 hours!
We'd see that happening if it were so.

My original calculations were based on the physicist Robert N Oerter's site.
Unfortunately he didn't go into any detail regarding the biomass calculation.

Now, the mass of all the living organisms on earth, known as the biomass, is considerably less than the mass of the oceans (by a very generous estimate, about 10¹⁶ kilograms. If we perform a similar calculation using the earth's biomass, instead of the mass of the oceans, we find that the second law of thermodynamics will only be violated if the entire biomass is somehow converted from a highly disorganized state (say, a gas at 10,000 K) to a highly organized state (say, absolute zero) in about a month or less.

Evolutionary processes take place over millions of years; clearly they cannot cause a violation of the second law.

I decided to do the calculations myself using specific heat as the basis and came up with the 3.65 hours time frame which is technically in the scope of Oeeter's definition of in about a month or less.
The problem was coming up with a realistic value of the specific heat of the Earth's biomass which I took from the literature as being
1.2 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹.

 

[sjastro]

Oops made some basic errors in the calculations.
(1) The average specific heat value for the Earth’s biomass is around 320 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹ not 1.2 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹.
(2) ΔSₘ = Qₘ/T, I used T=273K instead of 280K as in the Oerter link.

The resultant calculations turn out to be.

Qₘ = [320 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹ x 10¹⁶ kg x (10,000 – 0)K] = 3.2 x 10²² J.
ΔSₘ = Qₘ/T = (3.2 x 10²² J)/280 K = 1.2 x 10²⁰ J/K
ΔSₘ/ΔS = (1.2 x 10²⁰ J/K) / (1.2 x 10²² J/K) = 0.01

0.01 x 12 = 0.12 months which is more in line with Oerter's estimation.

 

[SelfSim]

Oops made some basic errors in the calculations.
(1) The average specific heat value for the Earth’s biomass is around 320 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹ not 1.2 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹.
(2) ΔSₘ = Qₘ/T, I used T=273K instead of 280K as in the Oerter link.

The resultant calculations turn out to be.

Qₘ = [320 J kg⁻¹ K⁻¹ x 10¹⁶ kg x (10,000 – 0)K] = 3.2 x 10²² J.
ΔSₘ = Qₘ/T = (3.2 x 10²² J)/280 K = 1.2 x 10²⁰ J/K
ΔSₘ/ΔS = (1.2 x 10²⁰ J/K) / (1.2 x 10²² J/K) = 0.01

0.01 x 12 = 0.12 months which is more in line with Oerter's estimation.

Thanks for the correction.
Interesting ..