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What is your view of atonement?

hedrick

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Both Anselm and the supposed Calvinist theory (I’m not convinced that he actually taught penal substitution) are associated with the concept that Jesus’ death was the equivalent of OT sacrifice for sin, which was supposedly necessary for forgiveness.

However I’m not convinced that this is correct. The Words of Institution speak of the blood of the covenant / new covenant. This is normally taken to refer to Jer 31:31. 31:34 certainly speaks of forgiveness of sins, but the passage doesn’t connect that with atonement sacrifice. Rather, it’s part of the new Kingdom in which the law is written in our hearts, and the people are truly God’s people.

If you look carefully at Heb 9—10 you’ll see that the author understands Jesus’ sacrifice as a covenant sacrifice, establishing that new covenant.

The OT certainly has sin sacrifices, but Ps 51 and Jer 7:21-22 suggest that they aren’t necessary, and maybe even not desirable. All God really wants is a repentant heart. Based on that, I understand the sin sacrifice as being in effect a sacrament that demonstrates the worshipper’s repentance.

Of course Jesus died on our behalf. I accept that Is 53 applies to him. But not because God needs punishment, whether for honor violated or because justice demands it. Rather, per Rom 6 he accepts the consequences of our sin and triumphs over it. Through faith in him, we also die to sin and rise to new life. Hence his death and resurrection bring us into the new covenant.
 
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Serving Zion

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What I have found recently, central to this topic, is a popular misconception of the power of Christ's blood - why and how does it have power to make the perfect atonement?

The error is made in an idea that Jesus' blood empowers God to forgive, as though He is unable to forgive apart from it. But this is contradicted by examples of forgiveness and restoration of countenance before the crucifixion happened.

Truthfully, Jesus' blood does not empower God to forgive where He was previously lacking, but it empowers us to repent where previously we were not so obliged (Hebrews 10:4, Isaiah 1:11, Isaiah 1:16-17, Hebrews 10:29).

Disciples who understand love and justice, recognise that a remorse existed for a Jew under Moses' covenant, because their own failures have required the suffering and death of an innocent creature. This really should serve as a deterrent to sin, yet Mark 11:15-18 shows us that Jesus had found the industrialisation had become an offensive apostasy from the intended way.

Hebrews 10:26-29 explains that now it is not such common blood being offered on the altar. We conciously have to choose to trample Christ underfoot if we are willing to sin, and incur the consequence (1 Corinthians 11:27-30).

Therefore, (because of our love for The Lord, our reverence for His glory, our commitment to His campaign), our repentance is perfected by His blood, and God can justly forgive our sin.

Additionally, our transgressions committed in ignorance are covered by Jesus' ransom sacrifice, because we have been disadvantaged: corrupted, tempted and led astray by the sin of the world, that is not owing to us nor of our deliberate desire (John 12:35, Daniel 9:26, Matthew 21:38-39, Luke 19:14, 2 Peter 2:1-3, John 15:22, James 4:17, 1 John 2:1) and therefore these are not of our accord "willful acts of sin that insult the spirit of grace". Rather, we repent with endurance, for growth, to strengthen the character of Christ in us.

Regarding substitution in atonement, we should emphasise more for The Kingdom's sake, that it goes both ways. Jesus takes the burden of our sin, while we take up our cross to come after Him, to be His hands, feet and voice. While He advocates for us in heaven, we represent Him on earth, with a view to fulfill Ephesians 4:10 & Ephesians 4:13. Philippians 2:19-21 is also relevant.
 
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FireDragon76

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The institution narrative seems to connect Jesus with the Passover and the entire Exodus narrative. But there is also a dimension that his people are in a state of bondage due to their own sins, and Jesus' blood is payment for that bondage.
 
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Si_monfaith

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Didn't Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead by a spoken word of authority? So why did He not defeat death by His word of authority & instead die on the cross in order to defeat death?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Was God angry with Adam Eve for starting to have the forbidden knowledge of good and evil & cursed them with sufferings and death?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Christ's death WAS a sacrifice for our sins, and that is also important.

"To whom" and "why" did Christ offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins?

Seeing God as good, and loving, and the One Who created all

If God who is loving, know beforehand many would reject His Son & end up in hell, why did He create humans at all & why did He create hell with a possibility for humans to also end up there?
 
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Si_monfaith

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it'snot the suffering that redeems us but the perfect love and obedience.

The love & obedience of Jesus wasn't empty theory. He shed all His blood & died. Does love & obedience without His death make sense?

So the same with Christ, he doesn't accept our punishment but he does pay our debt out of love.

Is paying our debt a reward for Him? Paying our debt is indeed taking our punishment upon Himself.
 
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Si_monfaith

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I think you explained that well.

As long as there is no focus on necessary torture or suffering, as though THAT is what makes it right, I accept those theories as being worthwhile.

So is torture & suffering ok if it was to defeat death?
 
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Si_monfaith

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Was God angry with Adam Eve when He cursed them with death?
 
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Si_monfaith

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In this case God is not viewed as pretending that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world

2 Corinthians5:21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him".

Didn't Jesus take God's wrath upon Him on our behalf?

Nor was he involved in pouring out wrath on Jesus

Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain".

Wasn't crucifixion God's eternal plan?
 
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marineimaging

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Step outside the box and view "Justice" as being a real entity, something of substance and not just subjective and ethereal? In order for mankind to have the possibility of eternal life Justice had to be satisfied about man's original sin and throughout the time from Adam to the time of Jesus, the men who were alive proved that Justice could not be satisfied. Why? Simply because of mankind's broken relationship with God. Next, God as God could not be on earth as God and could not satisfy Justice as He is perfect, incapable of sin. Therefore the Son had to offer himself, to be born onto earth, capable of sin yet remaining sinless, while living as a human in order to take up the cross so that Justice could be satisfied. Jesus proved that men could live without sinning, then, when He went to the cross, his death was not for His sins, but for the sins of all mankind and why? To satisfy Justice. Again, why? Because God is Creator, God is Just, God is Kind, God is Love and an eternity without all of these things, including justice, is void.
 
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~Anastasia~

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So is torture & suffering ok if it was to defeat death?
Well you're asking about a post 3-1/2 years old so I might not be able to address exactly the flow of conversation back then.

The problem is when we believe that torture and suffering where a demand made by God the Father, and He was unable/unwilling to forgive without them.

Yes, Jesus suffered torture, torment, and death as part of the Crucifixion.

But it's not as though God the Father was bloodthirsty and simply demanding SOMEONE suffer "or else" He will refuse to forgive.

That is something that crept into some theologies rather recently and was not a traditional understanding of the early Christians.

Was God angry with Adam Eve when He cursed them with death?

He did not curse them with death in anger at being defied. Death was (1) a natural consequence of separating themselves from God, Who is the Source of Life (in themselves they were not inherently immortal, though God did not create them to die), and just as important (2) death was a MERCY in that case, so that sin did not go on and on unchecked, leaving humans with no opportunity for resurrection (and salvation).

It was always God's plan and desire for people to live forever in communion with Him. He desires this for every person. But we have the choice to accept it or not.
 
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rturner76

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Jesus proved that men could live without sinning,
I think even some non believers believe this

Both views are forms of satisfaction in that they speak of how Christ's death was satisfactory, but penal substitution and Anselmian satisfaction offer different understandings of how Christ's death was satisfactory. ... In Calvinist Penal Substitution, it is the punishment which satisfies the demands of justice.

Anselm of Canterbury first articulated the satisfaction view in his Cur Deus Homo?, as a modification to the ransom theory that was postulated at the time in the West. The then-current ransom theory of the atonement held that Jesus' death paid a ransom to Satan, allowing God to rescue those under Satan's bondage.

Satisfaction theory was more akin to curing a sickness in that we are stained with the sickness of sin and Christ's obedience washes us clean.

The Reformer's Penal Substitution said it was the satisfaction of justice or Christ paying the penalty for your sin or satisfying the need for justice.

Most Protestant theology comes from Catholicism. It's just that different Preacher's changed anything they didn't agree within their individual denominations
 
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Si_monfaith

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Jesus proved that men could live without sinning,

Didn't Jesus He alone could live without sinning and be our propitiatory sacrifice?
 
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hedrick

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The Reformer's Penal Substitution said it was the satisfaction of justice or Christ paying the penalty for your sin or satisfying the need for justice
That's not the Reformers' only theory. Despite what you've heard about Calvin, most scholars think he used all the theories. And in his chapter on the atonement in the Institutes, he said that Christ's obedience was applied to us (I believe both imputed to us and actually changing us) via our mystical union with Christ. This seems like Rom 6 to me, which is a kind of Christus Victor.

Calvin says some things you may find surprising.
  • When Scripture speaks of God being our enemy until reconciled, this is not literal, but a way of emphasizing the difficulty of our condition. If he didn't still love us, he would never have given us son for us. Of course God does hate the corruption that is within us. "But as the Lord wills not to destroy in us that which is his own, he still finds something in us which in kindness he can love"
  • The atonement was accomplished by Christ's obedience. Not just his obedience in death, but during his whole life.
  • In fellowship with him, in his death we are buried to sin. Sin was abolished and death annihilated.
  • In his resurrection, righteousness is restored and life revived. When only Christ's death is mentioned in Scripture, resurrection is also implied.
  • "We do not view him as at a distance and without us, but as we have put him on, and been ingrafted into his body, he deigns to make us one with himself, and, therefore, we glory in having a fellowship of righteousness with him."
This sounds rather like Christus Victor. (Most of these bullet points constitute a summary of Institutes 2.16. The final quote is from 3.11.10.) This is the overall outline of his argument. In the course of a fairly long and complex chapter he does also speak of his taking punishment that we deserved.
 
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Si_monfaith

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where a demand made by God the Father, and He was unable/unwilling to forgive without them.

So was God making a demand because He was unable/unwilling to defeat sin, death & satan without sending Jesus to torture, suffering and death?

Father was bloodthirsty and simply demanding SOMEONE suffer "or else" He will refuse to forgive.

Was God the Father bloodthirsty and simply demanding SOMEONE suffer "or else" He will refuse to defeat sin, death & satan?

Death was (1) a natural consequence of separating themselves from God,

If human sufferings & death are natural consequences as if God was helpless, why did He say directly "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life (Genesis 3:16,17)?

death was a MERCY

So eternal hell is also MERCY?
 
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marineimaging

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If Jesus paid a ransom to the devil then the Bible would have said so. No, it was an action required to be visible and ultimately to free all of mankind and give us all hope for eternal salvation.
 
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rturner76

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If Jesus paid a ransom to the devil then the Bible would have said so. No, it was an action required to be visible and ultimately to free all of mankind and give us all hope for eternal salvation.
Correct, the Ransom theory was being applied in the Church until the Substitutionary Atonement theory was published.

Almost all of the atonement theory is based on Paul's writings on "Participation." THrough CHrist we participate in faithfulness.
 
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rturner76

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I was always under the impression that Calvin said we are exclusively under Penal Substitution but the above also talks about Satisfaction through Christ's obedience. His view is not so extreme as I have been lead to believe by some of the things I have read.

All of the Church Doctors have so much material available to read. It has always been daunting for me to read some of these men's writings and translations of writings. It would seem that many of the summaries I read are taking a certain view and contrasting another view.

I would do well to begin reading a more comprehensive set of writings where the entire theory is sussed out.
 
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