What is your Statement of Faith?

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus did not just speak to the twelve in john 6 therefore he spoke to those who refused to accept him
However, it seems to me you are reluctant to address the point this discussion commenced at, or the points I have made concerning it. That is your view the christian is under a law of righteousness concerning the ten commandments. I repeat, if your view is correct, how did Jesus death at Calvary benefit me a gentile who was never under the mosaic law" if you do not wish to discuss the subject I will withdraw. However, you are wrong In your view.

No. What did Jesus say to the disciples after he talked about drinking his blood and eating his flesh?

"Then said Jesus unto the twelve,
"Will ye also go away?"" (John 6:67).

"Then Simon Peter answered him,
"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."" (John 6:68).


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[stuart lawrence]

No. What did Jesus say to the disciples after he talked about drinking his blood and eating his flesh?

"Then said Jesus unto the twelve,
"Will ye also go away?"" (John 6:67).

"Then Simon Peter answered him,
"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."" (John 6:68).

A well known Baptist minister in the UK stated that 85% of evangelicals/charasmatics do not understand the justification/sanctification process of the christian faith. Tragically I believe he is right. I consider myself Pentecostal, I fully believe in the gifts of the spirit for today. But it I truly tragic that so many who accept the gifts of the spirit do not understand the core process of the justification /sanctification of the christian
I have given you many opportunities to answer my points concerning your belief the christian has a righteousness of obedience to the law where the ten commandments are concerned. You seem unable to defend your position, only sidetrack away from it.
There seems no further point to this conversation.
God bless
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[Goatee]

Jason you seem lost. You really need guidance in the Bible. If God were to have it written in the Bible all that occurred in 'real' time or 'human' time as we know it today i am sure the Bible would be a lot lot thicker!!

1 day to God could be millions of years! To God a million years is a click of his fingers! Evidence is abound about how old things are! 6,000 Year old earth believers are living in a fantasy world!

 

[Open Heart]

My time is limited so I have not replied to all the verses you posted yet.

I don't bother responding to posts that are scripture bombs. They are nuisances. People need to be succinct when they make their points.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't bother responding to posts that are scripture bombs. They are nuisances. People need to be succinct when they make their points.

Well, as long as a person's post is not always a long wall of text, I actually prefer a lengthy reply every now and then. I like filling myself with the Word of God. It is a joy and a pleasure to do so. I merely did not reply to all his points in Scripture because they would require lengthy replies with Scripture in return (And I have been very busy at work lately). Anyways, I hope your day is good and may God bless you.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Jason you seem lost. You really need guidance in the Bible. If God were to have it written in the Bible all that occurred in 'real' time or 'human' time as we know it today i am sure the Bible would be a lot lot thicker!!

1 day to God could be millions of years! To God a million years is a click of his fingers! Evidence is abound about how old things are! 6,000 Year old earth believers are living in a fantasy world!

There are 101 Scientific evidences for a young Earth. But that is not what convinced me. The Scriptures taught by the Spirit is what convinced me. Oh, and no. I am not lost. I am confident in my salvation and in what I believe.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The apostle Paul's gospel message of grace is impossible for the natural mind to rationalise. Only by knowing you have no righteousness/justification before God by observing the law/works of the law can you obey the law at its heart, or far better obey the heart of the law I should say for none at perfect.
This goes against rational thinking. The obvious response to such a message is you are preaching a licence to sin. This would be true IF the new covenant only hinged on one core point, but it does not, it hinges on two core points. One without the other equals no new covenant. And it is the lesser mentioned point that cuts out a licence to sin for the christian under grace

 

[stuart lawrence]

Does a christian love God?

Think of the person you love the most in this world, let us call then x. Now suppose a government official of the country you live in comes to see you, they tell you that if you harm or kill x the penalty for breaking that law of the land will not apply to you. They have the authority to remove from you the penalty you should pay for breaking that particular law concerning x. How would you react to that? Would you then want to kill or harm the person you love most in this world because the penalty has been removed from you if you break that particular law concerning x? Of course you wouldn't. Why not? Because you love them dearly.
If a christian loves God they do not need the penalty either, for then in their heart they want to obey him, nothing else is possible.
Love fulfills the law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The apostle Paul's gospel message of grace is impossible for the natural mind to rationalise. Only by knowing you have no righteousness/justification before God by observing the law/works of the law can you obey the law at its heart, or far better obey the heart of the law I should say for none at perfect.
This goes against rational thinking. The obvious response to such a message is you are preaching a licence to sin. This would be true IF the new covenant only hinged on one core point, but it does not, it hinges on two core points. One without the other equals no new covenant. And it is the lesser mentioned point that cuts out a licence to sin for the christian under grace

How did the Canaanite woman relate truth to Jesus? By the way of a real world example or parable (Just as Jesus did many times).

Why is this important to understand? Because OSAS cannot be made into a real world example because it is not true. For example: If I created a natural cure for weight loss that was simple and easy and you could eat whatever you wanted, what do think is going to happen? More people are going to eat whatever they want without thinking about the consequences. It's the same with OSAS. If you tell people that they can disobey Matthew 6:15, and 1 John 3:15 without it effecting their salvation, then that is exactly what they are going to do. Back peddling and saying they should obey is not going to matter to them because their is no lasting consequence in the after-life in what they do here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does a christian love God?

Think of the person you love the most in this world, let us call then x. Now suppose a government official of the country you live in comes to see you, they tell you that if you harm or kill x the penalty for breaking that law of the land will not apply to you. They have the authority to remove from you the penalty you should pay for breaking that particular law concerning x. How would you react to that? Would you then want to kill or harm the person you love most in this world because the penalty has been removed from you if you break that particular law concerning x? Of course you wouldn't. Why not? Because you love them dearly.
If a christian loves God they do not need the penalty either, for then in their heart they want to obey him, nothing else is possible.
Love fulfills the law

Basically what you are saying that all who believe or accept the seed of the Word in their heart automatically will love God in this life. But the parable of the sower paints a different picture. There are those who had received the Word into their heart (i.e. they believed), but two of them fell away). For our free will is not eliminated once we accepted Christ. Yes, a believer becomes born again and changed spiritually, but that does not mean they will endure in their faith to the End. God does not force his love upon a person because of a one time decision in accepting Christ. Nor does God just draw and regenerate only those who endure to the End. For the gift of salvation is free to all people.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does a christian love God?

Does a Christian love God? It depends on the Christian. Read Revelation chapters 2-3. We see many believers or churches react in both a good way and a bad way. There are also many testimonials of people who genuinely accepted and followed Christ for a time, but now they don't want to have anything to do with Him anymore.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I would love to go over the parable of the sower with you, but I will address your first post here if I may
The thing is, are you willing to listen without a closed mind?
Firstly, I have not mentioned osas, only that a person has a righteousness before God apart from the law which is Paul's core gospel message.
Having a righteousness apart from law does not, nor can it bring the result of an excuse to break the law as much as you want. Why not? Because the convert has been supernaturally changed, born again of the holy spirit. The law God desires them to keep has been written on their mind so they instinctively know how God wants them to live and it has been placed on their heart so they want to obey from their heart. Jesus can only be your saviour from sin if you have been born again for he will be no ones saviour from sin unless they desire in their heart to obey his father. Now if you want to obey God in your heart, it is not possible for you to view the penalty for sin being removed from your life as a licence to sin. The born again christian cannot view this covenant that way.
Why is this so important to know? Well it is most important for Paul kept stressing it. You see, the penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings great allurement to sin. If I said to you. If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that will come into your head if you believe me?
Consequently, if i said to you God will condemn you to hell if you covet, what will the first thought be that comes to you. Paul stated, for a reason:
Sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law(of righteousness) but under grace rom6:14
He could not possibly of been referring to the legalistic law for he did not need grace concerning the legalistic law for he said he faultlessly obeyed it(phil3:6)

 

[stuart lawrence]

85% of people who accept Christ as their saviour walk away from the christian faith. Why is that figure so high? Because most ministers will not forthrightly and fully preach the gospel message of grace. Most who go to church believe they have to be good enough for God. They cannot truly love him with such a view, or truly understand how much he loves them.

 

[stuart lawrence]

How did satan snatch the word out of the hearts of those who heard the message? They accepted the message they were saved apart from the law, but then satan convinced them they had to be righteous before God by being good enough(under the law)
The second group did not make a full commitment to Christ so fell away, the third example was of people continually getting distracted from the path. Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature.
The people who did mature and bring a harvest were those who UNDERSTOOD the message

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No. First, those who believe Justification is a taking away of all law for them to obey hold to OSAS. So there is no reason to be evasive or to deny it. Second, there are many problems with OSAS or your view of Justification.

#1. Hundreds of passages in Scripture refute such a belief.

#2. Such a belief usually denies Sinless Perfectionism or in a person to stop in their sins.

#3. On some level it leads to immorality or sin.

#4. Such a belief cannot be made into a real world example like many of the other truths in the Bible. For life teaches us that if you take the consequences away in something, then that person will have no lasting desire to do what is good and right.

#5. Many testimonials show folks no longer living a sinful lifestyle because of their belief in OSAS.



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[Bible Highlighter]

85% of people who accept Christ as their saviour walk away from the christian faith. Why is that figure so high? Because most ministers will not forthrightly and fully preach the gospel message of grace. Most who go to church believe they have to be good enough for God. They cannot truly love him with such a view, or truly understand how much he loves them.

Was that percentage from Barna Group? Are you saying that those 85% were living holy lives before? Do you think there are no statistics for those who believe in OSAS and fall away?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How did satan snatch the word out of the hearts of those who heard the message? They accepted the message they were saved apart from the law, but then satan convinced them they had to be righteous before God by being good enough(under the law)
The second group did not make a full commitment to Christ so fell away, the third example was of people continually getting distracted from the path. Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature.
The people who did mature and bring a harvest were those who UNDERSTOOD the message

No. Read Matthew 13:19 again. It says this is seed that is sown by the way side and the wicked one snatches the seed out of their heart. So they don't understand the Word. This is the unbeliever. The others are believers and received the Word with joy; And the wicked did not take the Word initially out of their heart.

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[Goatee]

There are 101 Scientific evidences for a young Earth. But that is not what convinced me. The Scriptures taught by the Spirit is what convinced me. Oh, and no. I am not lost. I am confident in my salvation and in what I believe.

Link to 101 scientific evidence?

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. First, those who believe Justification is a taking away of all law for them to obey hold to OSAS. So there is no reason to be evasive or to deny it. Second, there are many problems with OSAS or your view of Justification.

#1. Hundreds of passages in Scripture refute such a belief.

#2. Such a belief usually denies Sinless Perfectionism or in a person to stop in their sins.

#3. On some level it leads to immorality or sin.

#4. Such a belief cannot be made into a real world example like many of the other truths in the Bible. For life teaches us that if you take the consequences away in something, then that person will have no lasting desire to do what is good and right.

#5. Many testimonials show folks no longer living a sinful lifestyle because of their belief in OSAS.



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Once again, I have not mentioned osas, only you are.
Let us concentrate on the heart of the disagreement, please respond to the following:

If Jesus death at calvary was solely to give the believer a righteousness apart from the mosaic law, not apart from the ten commandments(moral law) what did Jesus death achieve for me a Gentile? I was never under the mosaic law. Please respond to this.

If Paul could faultlessly obey the legalistic law, why did he stress we must die to the law to live for Christ unless he was referring to the Ten Commandments? Please respond.

Paul states the ministration of death was written on tablets of stone. The only law written on stone was the Ten Commandments. Therefore if the Christian has a righteousness before God of observing the law in regard to the Ten Commandments, the Christian is under what Paul calls the ministration of death. Please respond

Paul says the sinful passions aroused in us are by the law.(rom 7:5) Which law is Paul referring to here? He tells us sinful passions were aroused in him through the commandment Thou shalt not covet. Is the Christian under the law that arouses sinful passions in them? Please respond.

Why are you ignoring one of the two core components of the new covenant?

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he addsand only because this has happened)

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more

That does not speak of only the mosaic law minus the Ten Commandments does it?

I will respond to your other two posts once you have responded to this one. If you are convinced the Christian is under a righteousness of obedience to the moral law, these are points that need to be addressed. Let us move on once we have established exactly which law the Christian is not under unto righteousness, for this is the core of the disagreement

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. First, those who believe Justification is a taking away of all law for them to obey hold to OSAS. So there is no reason to be evasive or to deny it. Second, there are many problems with OSAS or your view of Justification.

#1. Hundreds of passages in Scripture refute such a belief.

#2. Such a belief usually denies Sinless Perfectionism or in a person to stop in their sins.

#3. On some level it leads to immorality or sin.

#4. Such a belief cannot be made into a real world example like many of the other truths in the Bible. For life teaches us that if you take the consequences away in something, then that person will have no lasting desire to do what is good and right.

#5. Many testimonials show folks no longer living a sinful lifestyle because of their belief in OSAS.



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I must respond to this. Are you claiming sinless perfection in your flesh? I have never met, or come into contact with any Christian who has claimed such perfection.
For you to have achieved sinless perfection, you would have to 24/7 without one slip love all those you come into contact with perfectly.

You see, on your point 4 you are looking at it from a human, logical viewpoint, not a spiritual one. Please tell me. If You believed you had a righteousness before God apart from moral law, would that make you go out and sin as much as you want? If it did, you could not love God could you. Because if you loved him, you would not seek a life of sin. And if it did make you want to go out and sin as much as you wanted, the law could not have been p0laced on your heart and written on your mind, so you could not be under the new covenant could you. Please respond to these points.

Paul completely disagrees with your point 3. He says sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. However, you say if we are not under a law of righteousness we will sin far more. Please respond