What is your opinion and experience with women with short hair?

[stevevw]

The order is unchanging, true.

But you're missing the part where the Jews had many things wrong about the scriptures (with their flawed understanding of scriptures) before Jesus came.

They thought you had to stick with the Sabbath, stoning some sinners to death, and what else - with absoluteness. There's no room for fairness and mercy. The Jews executed the law without love, without regard for the extenuating circumstances. They used the wrong measures to judge others resulting in unjust outcomes.

The order has always been before Adam and Eve sinned - eternal life, love, mercy, forgiveness, and innocence.

Before they sinned, Eve is not subject to Adam. A "helper" does not mean a lower ranking status. The Holy Spirit is also a "helper" to us. Although Jesus did not speak of it, he broke taboos in his conduct with other women. You can see where Jesus stand on this and it's he's definitely not standing with the Jews on the matter.

However, the culture of the period was quite hostile to women's liberties both from the orthodox Jews and the Romans. This is most likely the reason Paul said/wrote the things he did - to avoid excessive persecution so that early Christianity might survive but he had to say it in a way that also preserves order in order to avoid confusion among his audiences.

Unfortunately, the teaching has brought so much confusion today because we're so distant from their culture. It really doesn't apply to us anymore.

I don't know as this culture you speak of was not just around in Pauls time. It was also around in Abrahams time and even before that. Abraham was the Father of the family who became the ruler of the clans and tribe. So did all the fathers of the family and tribes. This is chosen by God from father to son into the priesthood.

This was then followed to Christ and beyond. This was the same tradition the early Christians followed. Peter and Pauls teachings are based on these traditions and not just the current culture they lived in. In fact we could say that from the beginning until the 20th century it has been this way.

I don't think Christs church and the family have been living in sin in some oppressive patriarchy that was socially constructed for 4,000 years or more and has just been saved by modern egalitarianism.

Rather this was a natural order but it was exploited as bad men often do. But I don't think we should dismiss this natural order of things.

Peter mentions how Sarah was obedient to Abraham and called him lord and Peter said this was an example for wives and it pleased the Lord.

I think this is an inherent order that reflects the Godhead in that there is Christs Body the church and the Headship in the relationship of God the Father and Christ His Son. While being unified as one but also in Christ who became subject and obedient to the Father. Both these aspects are in the Godhead.

This relationship is reflected in marriage and the church where the husband and father are head and the wife is subject to the husband like Christ is to the Father. But also in the husband in that he like Christ is subject to the wife in that he gives his own body in sacrificial love putting the wife above himself.

I think this two way subjection and order is well balanced and needed. Some throw the baby out with the bathwater and percieve any subjection as immoral.

But I think this is a modern idea that everyone should be equal in roles and relationships in the Body and church. Some mistake this divine order as control and oppression but this is a modern idea.

Just as social norms today about marriage are now breaching Gods laws and order with modern egalitarian ideas where everyone should be equal no matter what. Even if that breaches Gods law and order. Whereas I think Gods order in marriage and the church and reality itself has always been there.

In Christ being subject and obedient to the Father He did not think this a power relationship where one is controlled by the other. This was actually empowering, A powerful idea that is radical to modern thinking. God thought this pleasing and not controlling anyone. But can be exploited.

Peter also mentions this in how the Christlike humble and pure obedience of a wife, a servant or anyone who is subject to rulers even unjust ones will expose the injustice and turn evil people to God without a word being spoken. Merely by the Christlike example of humble obedience and purity.

But today its gender and sex wars where its become a competition and fight over rights. Individual and group equality rights are held up over all else. Any deviation or unequal relations are seen through the oppressor and viction lens as immoral.

Yet we know for many good reasons even in Gods natural laws that there are differences and order that are not the result of social constructions.

 

[stevevw]

If you review Genesis, a wife's lowly position in a marriage was due to Eve's sin.

A punishment that was passed down to all wives.

Alongside that punishment was death - Adam and Eve no longer had eternal life.

But Jesus came and we now have a chance at forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

The punishment for Adam and Eve's sin revoked.

If women needed a husband in order to keep the straight path, would that mean women who never got married would die condemned?

I am not sure as I think this order was there before the fall. When God created Adam first and Eve from Adam. God said man needed a helper and not the other way around.

Of course this does not deminish that we are all made in Gods image and are equal with Gods imprint in us and our ability to have relationship with God.

But I think just like man and women have dominion over the animals there is still order within Gods creation. This is not a gender thing but a spiritual mystery of Gods way and how this is expressed in our reality.

Otherwise we have to look at every instance of where God is nvolved in encouraging and even establishing this divine patriarchy as oppression and I don't think God would have had anything to do with such. It was natural that this order came through man in Adam and the holy lin of men to Christ.

Like anything there has to be order and authority as God is a God or order and peace and not chaos. But moder ideology hates order and authority as its agaisnt freedoms and liberalism which allows humans as gods with no power over them.

Also I cannot see how Paul was just aplying some rules and order to not offend the surrounding culture. It seems like Christ is tolerating oppression to keep the peace under the egalitarian worldview.

Paul refers back to Gensis and mentions in 1 Timothy 2: 13 in regards for why women cannot have authority over a man with teachings in the church. For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. This seems like before the fall and about the order of creation.

Then we have to start rationalising all the other bible verses that mention husbands are head over the wife, example of Sarah being obedient to Abraham, any mention of the wife being subject and obedient to the husband and all male disciples and it seems overseers and its hard to believe that all this is cultivating an oppressive system over women.

The only reason I think its entertained as oppression is due to moder ideas such as feminism and egalitarianism. But these ideas were not around for near on 4000 years including the time of Christ and soon after.

So I think if anything its moder ideas that are out of step. Though this does not mean that men have abused this natural divine order. This is how satan exploits God by taking what is pure and good and making it ugly and bad.

But as mentioned this divine order has two components. One is the wife and women and the other is the husband and man. The husband and man also have their role and order which is to be like Christ in sacrificial love. This will never oppress women.

So I think both men and women are to fullfill this mysterious relationship for it to work. Its hard when there is evil intent all around which undermines Christs authority and Gods order.

 

[timewerx]

Paul refers back to Gensis and mentions in 1 Timothy 2: 13 in regards for why women cannot have authority over a man with teachings in the church. For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. This seems like before the fall and about the order of creation.

Why would God hand it as punishment to Eve after she sinned if the hierarchy is already in effect before she sinned?

It does not make any sense.

 

[RDKirk]

I am not sure as I think this order was there before the fall. When God created Adam first and Eve from Adam. God said man needed a helper and not the other way around.

If you examine the Hebrew word for "help" used there and how it's used in the rest of the Old Testament, it becomes obvious that by "help" God meant "rescue"...because that's how the word is used in the rest of the Old Testament, in most cases referring to God Himself.

 

[prudent_commenter]

Prudent one you say the God cut your desires for carnal pleasures off. And made optional for you. Ok. But is sexual desire a carnal distraction or just normal affection ? You’re not sure if this is for you as yet as you wait upon the will of the God. I’m sure if your will is open to Gods will he will reveal to you soon enough.

Per my understanding it could two possibilities: 1. He cancelled the desire permanently to never be seduced by or want women; or 2. it cancels the desire until the woman that is made for me comes into my life. Once that "one" woman comes, everything might return to "normal".

You say with sexual desire out of the way your thinking and evaluation for a future partner is much more clearer for searching out. But how would premarital sex from someone who is now a child of God exclude them from now being a Godly person with the potential of being a future Godly wife ? It is the God who forgives justifies and purifies is it not ?

For my side, if I were to marry one that fornicated for example, then I would be denying another that waited for this. The virginity is just the icing of the cake. I don't and have never consumed alcohol, neither smoked, nor made bodily modifications of any kind, my mind is unaltered by society, and unaffected by passions. The body has been treated as the home of God. And it would be unfair to a woman that shares the same, to deny her of something similar to her. This is my thinking, and it's probably going to be a biblical marriage, which is frowned upon these days.

I guess we all have standards in how we evaluate as with you and as with us all. But sometimes our standards not be Gods standards and we must always evaluate that. To me personally the good wife is always there for you. It not be determined on her past nor of her husbands past. Even ladies of the night such as Rehab the prostitute married into the Israel of God as many within her profession have done so through the generations of our histories. Anyway food for thought when thinking upon the good future wife.

Well, this is why the woman must come from God Himself. I suppose, I'll recognize it when I'll see it. I cannot make this decision my self.

As to thinking upon becoming a monk. Maybe. Who know. Yu may even find your future partner. Perhaps a Nun down there at the local nunnery Only kidding : ) Prudent One I do wish you well in whatever you choose for the future . God bless. Yours Kathleen

I spend my days in study and prayer. My partaking in society is very rare. It would fit perfectly to the life of a monk. And I would love to do that.

 

[stevevw]

Why would God hand it as punishment to Eve after she sinned if the hierarchy is already in effect before she sinned?

It does not make any sense.

I don't know but Paul definitely refers back to both reasons. That Adam was created first and that Eve first sinned and Adam did not. So we can't just say it was because of the fall. There is something inherent in the creation order that is reflected in nature of things as well.

 

[stevevw]

If you examine the Hebrew word for "help" used there and how it's used in the rest of the Old Testament, it becomes obvious that by "help" God meant "rescue"...because that's how the word is used in the rest of the Old Testament, in most cases referring to God Himself.

Ok if thats what it means. But it is Paul who refers to Adam being created first as one of the reasons. As though it is something inherent in Gods order regardless of the fall.

I was think about this and whether there would have been differenes between men and women before the fall in a similar way to we see now as far as the natural differences. Such as a man cannot be a women and a women cannot be a man. Or whether a women would still give birth or a man still have to work to tend the garden.

I think within God and through Christ there are innate differencs between men and women which gives them roles that each cannot fullfill. Not because of any power and control over the other but simply they are different. Like God the Father is different to God the Son and yet the same divinity and image.

God the Father could not have taken on the role of the Son. No more than a father of the family take the role of son or a wife and mother. It seems this imagry is reflected in how God reveals Himself to us as the loving Father and this is reflected in the father of the family.

That is why Abraham was first known as the Father of the family and then the ruler of the clan, and tribe and referred back to by the disciples as our Father of the Hebrews. That is why Peter says Sarah called Abraham lord. That is why the priesthood is passed from father to son as is the holy bloodline from Adam to Christ.

But this is also reflected in women and we have many examples of the pure obedience and respect as Christ did being subject to the Father. God says this is pleasing to Him. Peter says this is a good example to all women. He also says that this example can expose evil and turn people to God without a word and just by the pure example.

Women are also mothers and this can never be a vocation of men. Women as mothers, the caring nature and nurturing as Christs own mother had been so perfect for also makes this union what it is and without women, wives and mothers there could be no family and chucrh.

So there seems to be an inherent order reflected in Gods revealtion to us which is reflected in the relationships in marriage, the family and the church.

 

[Lost4words]

Every female i ever dated had short fur and short legs!

 

[Strong in Him]

I don't know but Paul definitely refers back to both reasons. That Adam was created first and that Eve first sinned and Adam did not.

He most certainly did.
Sin came into the world through Adam, not Eve, Romans 5:12-21. He had been commanded, by God himself, not to eat the fruit. Eve had not.

 

[timewerx]

I don't know but Paul definitely refers back to both reasons. That Adam was created first and that Eve first sinned and Adam did not. So we can't just say it was because of the fall. There is something inherent in the creation order that is reflected in nature of things as well.

We can't use that logic because animals were created first.

Paul is speaking out of a cultural context of an order that God Himself did not establish. At least, not until Adam and Eve sinned but before that, no one have authority over the other.

Jesus did not overrule God. What Jesus overruled is the false understanding of the Jews about God.

 

[stevevw]

He most certainly did.
Sin came into the world through Adam, not Eve, Romans 5:12-21. He had been commanded, by God himself, not to eat the fruit. Eve had not.

Fair enough. It was actually that sneaky serpent. Hes still at it. Thats why he slithers on the ground I think as he was made the lowest of the low eating dust. Gods dust lol.

 

[stevevw]

We can't use that logic because animals were created first.

Paul is speaking out of a cultural context of an order that God Himself did not establish. At least, not until Adam and Eve sinned but before that, no one have authority over the other.

Jesus did not overrule God. What Jesus overruled is the false understanding of the Jews about God.

I think the issue is one of hermeneutics. I am not referring to authority as in power or control over another as modern ideas would have it. Its more about some sort of divine authority thats go nothing to do with how we percieve this.

Even the word authority has been corrupted and tarred with modern thinking. The early church would not have thought in such terms. I think it was more like say how we respect the institution of the high court. Even the hierarchy of its lower court system all having a degree of authority because of its office.

Paul mentions obeying and respecting rulers in the community because they are instituted by God. He speaks of elders worth double honor. This is not about power and control. In fact I think its Clement or Ignatius who says the more humble and a servant like disposoition the more respect and authority is given.

Paul mentions this when he says that the church is his reference. He has earnt his authority over the church because the people see he examples what he teaches and is being Christlike.

 

[timewerx]

I think the issue is one of hermeneutics. I am not referring to authority as in power or control over another as modern ideas would have it. Its more about some sort of divine authority thats go nothing to do with how we percieve this.

Even the word authority has been corrupted and tarred with modern thinking. The early church would not have thought in such terms. I think it was more like say how we respect the institution of the high court. Even the hierarchy of its lower court system all having a degree of authority because of its office.

Paul mentions obeying and respecting rulers in the community because they are instituted by God. He speaks of elders worth double honor. This is not about power and control. In fact I think its Clement or Ignatius who says the more humble and a servant like disposoition the more respect and authority is given.

Paul mentions this when he says that the church is his reference. He has earnt his authority over the church because the people see he examples what he teaches and is being Christlike.

When I'm new at a job, I regard even those with same position and rank as myself as authority. Since they got in earlier, it's my way of treating them with respect.

It's also a way of fitting in so the old timers don't see you as threat because first impressions last.

But after a time, I start treating them as equals as they allow.

It's an unspoken order but of understanding and warmth. God did not say anything about it before Adam and Eve sinned because He knew they'd figure it out.

Even Jesus spoke of the temporary hierarchy. It' doesn't stay the same indefinitely. At some point:

John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

If Paul is trying to impose order. It's probably because of disorder and some still needing guidance. But things don't usually stay the same indefinitely. Things progress.