What is Wrong with going to Church?

[Norah63]

A little more on gender inclusive please?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

That's just a lot of unsubstantiated personal view. Let's look at NT usage of brother in Paul's letters.

Rom 1:13 The whole church
Rom 7:1 The whole church
Rom 7:4 The whole church
Rom 8:12 The whole church
Rom 8:29 The whole church
Rom 9:3 The whole church
Rom 10:1 The whole church
Rom 11:25 The whole church
Rom 12:1 The whole church
Rom 15:14 The whole church
Rom 16:17 The whole church
1 Cor 1:10 The whole church
1 Cor 1:11 The whole church
1 Cor 1:26 The whole church
1 Cor 2:1 The whole church
1 Cor 3:1 The whole church
1 Cor 4:6 The whole church
1 Cor 6:8 The whole church
1 Cor 7:24 The whole church
Plus many more. Also Hebrews, James, Peter and John

Your opinion about bible translations was apparently stated without reading the bible carefully. The KJV uses brethren, which is an a gender inclusive word by the way.

John
NZ

You can rely on the weaknesses of English translations all you want when it happens to suit your agenda, but any true student of the Bible knows that one must delve into the Hebrew and Greek from which our Bibles were translated to ensure they stand on a more solid foundation than those agendas set forth by translators with an unmistakable bais.

You clearly are on the losing end of this argument in the view of all of us who take the time to seek out the lexicons to see that the Greek word from which most occurances of "brethren" appear in the KJV, especially in Paul's epistles, are GENDER SPECIFIC as MASCULINE.

If you're going to sit there and claim the NT women were also inclusive as MASCULINE, then I'll leave you to them to whip for your ignorance. The only ones who won't beat you to a pulp are those few who wallow in the sewers of feministic theologies.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

A little more on gender inclusive please?

Wishful thinking based on an unreasonable dislike of the facts will never alter the Hebrew and Greek from which our Bibles were translated. Are you one of those who have bibliphobia? Most liberals do. Are you one of them?

BTW

 

[Johnnz]

Wishful thinking based on an unreasonable dislike of the facts will never alter the Hebrew and Greek from which our Bibles were translated. Are you one of those who have bibliphobia? Most liberals do. Are you one of them?

BTW

But your 'facts' seem to be unsubstantiated opinions. And you are expert in both languages?

John
NZ

 

[humanbn]

Yes, agree with BTW, we cna't go somewhere, the church is a person. Just like Even came from Adam, she was part of Adam. We, the church came from Christ. The church is not a building, or denomination, or system. Christ didn't die for those things, but to destroy them.

He died for His bride.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

But your 'facts' seem to be unsubstantiated opinions. And you are expert in both languages?

John
NZ

What you're saying, then, is that you're not willing to confirm what I've told you by grabbing a copy of a Greek Lexicon in your home, or your local library, and verify that what I'm saying is true?

I can't send you a lexicon through this medium in order to prove anything to you, and you know that. The fact that you're willing to exploit such weaknesses speaks loud volumes to your inflexible agneda. You appear to want to believe what you've stated, in spite of the facts to the contrary.

There's nothing new about that tactic.

BTW

 

[FireDragon76]

I can relate to problems getting to church... I'm disabled, I don't drive and I sometimes either take the bus or catch a ride. I have Asperger's too and sometimes being in a crowd makes me intensely nervous. I can pray at home. The one thing I miss though doing this is the Lord's Supper/Eucharist which is an important part of my spiritual life.

I've attended services online on Second Life- Epiphany Island Anglican Cathedral. It's a good community, although I find the service a little plodding at times as people type in their prayers or "Amen's". Still it works and the focus is usualy on the preaching.

 

[Episaw]

Christ Jesus is the Head of a body populated by PEOPLE who believe upon Him. Jesus is not the Head of real estate, buildings and man-made organizational structures that elevate some men above others.

Wow! That is a saying that should be on the door of every church building.

 

[Episaw]

If you're going to sit there and claim the NT women were also inclusive as MASCULINE, then I'll leave you to them to whip for your ignorance. The only ones who won't beat you to a pulp are those few who wallow in the sewers of feministic theologies.

It is very common for people to have a cultural idea in their heads and then try and grab some scripture to justify or confirm what culture says.

This amounts to culture changing us instead of us changing the culture, which is what we should be doing. When it changes us, we allow all sorts of fads and fantasies into our thinking to justify anything we do.

I have noticed now that the leadership of most AOG churches is usually Pastor and Mrs Hunkydory despite the fact that not once is there any reference to a Pastor and his wife leading a church in the New Testament.

What I did discover was that the leadership of the New Testament Church is mentioned 25 times in scripture. The Greek word is the same in every verse and it is masculine, and they mention three people or people with three specific ministries. That of Apostle, Prophet and Elder. Pastor is not mentioned once.

Now that begs the question, if it was the norm for a male Pastor and his wife to lead the New Testament church, why is it they were not mentioned once? I have been asking this question for a long time but as yet, no one, and I mean no one has come up with any scriptural authority to justify such an assertion.

All I have been told is that Elder means Pastor or that the Pastor is the head of a board of Elders. Scriptures please?

 

[Johnnz]

Essentially, we have not abandoned the 'priest of the parish' stance adopted by the church not too long after the NT period. Nowadays pastor=priest in most modern churches.

John
NZ

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I have noticed now that the leadership of most AOG churches is usually Pastor and Mrs Hunkydory despite the fact that not once is there any reference to a Pastor and his wife leading a church in the New Testament.

What I did discover was that the leadership of the New Testament Church is mentioned 25 times in scripture. The Greek word is the same in every verse and it is masculine, and they mention three people or people with three specific ministries. That of Apostle, Prophet and Elder. Pastor is not mentioned once.

Now that begs the question, if it was the norm for a male Pastor and his wife to lead the New Testament church, why is it they were not mentioned once? I have been asking this question for a long time but as yet, no one, and I mean no one has come up with any scriptural authority to justify such an assertion.

All I have been told is that Elder means Pastor or that the Pastor is the head of a board of Elders. Scriptures please?

Most modern and historic churchianity folks see "pastor" on almost every other page of the NT. The "brothers" whom Paul addressed, as you have seen claimed in this thread, are allegedly "pastors" and "elders," and yet the text fails to uphold such a distinction outside of pure assumption.

The early Church was populated by a brotherhood who discovered their place in the Body of Christ by way of active involvement in each other's lives and in the lives of their local communities. They watched over the sisters, provided for the widows where were worthy of the Church's support and care. The "brothers" rose up to eldership through experiential and spiritual maturity growth in the faith...not by sitting in pews, listening to endless streams of sermons and Sunday school lessons. Paul said that he left them with the Gospel of Christ Jesus, and Him alone, not ecclesiastical constructs many out there seem to want to assume upon the scriptures. The few exceptions mentioned, such as Timothy, sufficed in providing what all the local Churches needed across Asia Minor and the other outlying provinces. Those few men served as the bastions against heresy.

Paul's first missionary journey involved him leaving those churches with NO leadership. He left them to sink or swim on the basis of the Gospel alone.

Ahhh, but there are those "gifted" individuals out there who believe Paul had a virtual pocket full of "pastors" and "elders" to leave behind as he completed each of his successful church-planting activities during his first missionary journey.

Therein lies the problem with the pathetic order or our modern NT books in the Bible. The books of the NT aren't in the order they were written That's like reading a novel with all the chapters mixed up in the order of how much drama there is in each. Luther jumbled the books to put them in the order of how much doctrine each contained. As insane as that is, that's the legacy of his influence.

And here we are, theological cemetaries filled with men who have Th.D attached to their names, and few of them ever embark upon teaching the actual order of the many events portrayed within scripture.....much less connect the dots that draw a picture quite different from what we see in modern churchianity.

The modern institutional model is purely man-made, sprinkled with a smidge of divine truth in order to make it more acceptable. It's not evil in and of itself. Evil enters in through the hearts of men who remain inflexible to to the fundamental need for each believer being functionally active in each other's lives during the main gathering. Instead, they implement band-aid programs such as "cell" or "small groups" to try and decrease the effects of the vacuum left behind by the expected inactivity of the populace.

We'll also hear about the almighty "order" the Lord allegedly expects in the main gathering....at least, the modern perception of the "order" they THINK the Lord expects, otherwise called the "service," which is, yet again, nothing more than a concoction (tradition) of men. Dare anyone clash against churchianity paradigms, and they find themselves on the outside looking in, and wondering, "What did I do?"

Protestants make a fuss over roman catholics having elevated traditions to the same level as the Bible, and yet we can observe the protestants doing the very same in practice each and every week.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Essentially, we have not abandoned the 'priest of the parish' stance adopted by the church not too long after the NT period. Nowadays pastor=priest in most modern churches.

John
NZ

Well, John, every true follower of Christ Jesus is a priest since there is no mediator between Christ Jesus and ourselves. I'm a priest unto the Most High God, and I hope that at least most others in this thread are also priests unto God.

BTW

 

[Johnnz]

Well, John, every true follower of Christ Jesus is a priest since there is no mediator between Christ Jesus and ourselves. I'm a priest unto the Most High God, and I hope that at least most others in this thread are also priests unto God. BTW

And therein lies a significant doctrinal error underlying the "divine order" teaching when layers are inserted into our direct relation ship with Jesus and our status as all being priests.

John
NZ

 

[Melshezidek]

I don't attend church b/c the Lord told me not to for a season

 

[BeforeThereWas]

And therein lies a significant doctrinal error underlying the "divine order" teaching when layers are inserted into our direct relation ship with Jesus and our status as all being priests.

John
NZ

Amen.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I don't attend church b/c the Lord told me not to for a season

What was the reason?

Was it because they have within their makeup inherent weaknesses none of them can/will overcome? Is it because they promote, by their actions and attitudes, the idea "clergy" is a distinctive class of believers? Is it because they REALLY don't know what TRUE fellowship is in relation to the biblical record of the early Church? Is it because many of them still teach the false teachings behind tithing?

Is it because you too never could master the art of fellowshipping with the backs of other people's heads?

Share.....please.

BTW

 

[New_Wineskin]

I don't attend church b/c the Lord told me not to for a season

Enough said . He told you - no reason for anything else .

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I still get a kick out of the OP question, "What's wrong with going to church?"

For years I've recognized that there's no right answer to the wrong question.

A proper question, on the other hand, is to ask, "How can anyone GO to what they are already a part?"

For many years our lingo has drifted into the utterly absurd, and most of the sheeple of our culture don't even realize it, and many get frustrated when their error is pointed out to them. Key words today have taken on generic meaninglessness, which relegates much of our speech as having lost its impact for meaning.

For example, those who disagree with the agenda statements of the homosexual lobby are labeled as biggots and homophobic. The idiots who throw those labels at others who disagree with them are saying that the other side is unreasonably biased against homosexuals, and that they have an unreasonable FEAR of homosexuals. In most cases, both charges are utterly false.....except in the minds of the mindless, unthinking masses of our culture who harbor subjective definitions of key words, and misapply them at will.

I was, like.....He was, like.....She was, like.....We were, like.....They were, like.....It was, like.....like.....like.....like.....like.....like.....

It's as if all the idiots (by choice) of our culture live in the Shaggy and Scooby Doo cartoon world.

BTW

 

[Episaw]

I don't attend church b/c the Lord told me not to for a season

I went through the same experience for two years. The reason God gave me was that he wanted to get religion out of me, so I obeyed because I didn't think I was at all religious.

I was in for a big surprise. I can't remember how many times my responses to thing and situations were based on my religious background, not on what the word said.

By the second year, I was beginning to get a grip on things and not thinking religiously. The word of God became much more obvious and I didn't feel the need to submit to religious underpinnings.

I became a God follower not a church follower or a religion follower.

These days church for me is who I am and being, not doing. Cutting through all the religious stuff is total freedom.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I went through the same experience for two years. The reason God gave me was that he wanted to get religion out of me, so I obeyed because I didn't think I was at all religious.

I was in for a big surprise. I can't remember how many times my responses to thing and situations were based on my religious background, not on what the word said.

By the second year, I was beginning to get a grip on things and not thinking religiously. The word of God became much more obvious and I didn't feel the need to submit to religious underpinnings.

I became a God follower not a church follower or a religion follower.

These days church for me is who I am and being, not doing. Cutting through all the religious stuff is total freedom.

This is an excellent testimony.

BTW