What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Jesus is YHWH]

I will freely confess I sin daily, but I am definitely not proud of it.

My understanding is, I am not going to heaven because I achieved enough good works that merit it. I have put all my faith in the Blood of Jesus alone to merit me heaven, even if I fail miserably on earth. That faith in the Blood is obedience to Jesus and keeping his commandments, because it is accounted for righteousness.

The amount of good works I do or do not do, will only contribute to rewards or discipline.

So would you say if you are sinning ( plural ) daily that would be 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year 365 days.

Would you say its habitual sin at that point ?

If not why not ?

How do you define habitual, a habit ?

How would you reconcile that with John, Jesus and Paul 's teaching about those who habitually sin shall not enter the kingdom of God ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

What is most dangerous is to claim you can bypass subjectivity somehow. We all must hear from God.

But how could it be dangerous to say a statement is more clear than another? Makes absolutely no sense at all, as if we must demand all things are equally clear. Where would that rule even come from? Even Peter said some things are hard to understand. It's like a point just "thrown out there" to sound argumentative.

I'm not saying one point is not more clear than another. I'm not even saying that interpreting the less clear by the more clear is of itself wrong, but that it is dangerous. It therefore behooves us to do more than just that, but to do thorough exegesis of both.

Look how many verses one claims is 'clear' when it is not at all clear to another!

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Bible does not say anywhere "Faith without any kind of works saves but necessarily has to always have works."

Actually, I don't even have to read what @Clare73 said to know that if that was her wording (which I doubt) she didn't mean it the way you take it. "Faith apart from works" is not the same thing as "faith without any works". You well know her point is that it is not the works that saves.

There's a whole shopping list of claims Arminians make that we could subject to the that same standard, that "The Bible nowhere says: ...".

 

[QvQ]

You would say: saved people must necessarily bear some of amount of fruit (how much?) that contributes nothing to their salvation.

Psalm 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
God did that. The Work is done by God (He leadeth me,) for the greater Glory of God (for His name's sake).

The amount of good works I do or do not do, will only contribute to rewards or discipline.

Karma is refuted in the Book of Job.

 

[Clare73]

When Scriptures seem to contradict you can decide which side you think carries more weight. The very reason we have opposing camps at all (like C vs A) is because Scriptures can look this way. You "set Scripture against itself" as much as me under this scenario, because I am not saying Scripture contradicts itself, but that the more clear interprets the less clear.

Nope. . .all God's word carries the same "weight". . .man-made construct, nowhere found in Scripture.

You simply assume your interpretation is "so good" that you don't even have to acknowledge a tension in Scripture, whereas I honestly acknowledge it.

When understood in the light of all Scripture, including Deuteronomy 29:29, there is no need to compromise any Scripture, all get to stand as stated.

The Bible simply does not say what you are saying,

Au contraire. . .

you are regurgitating sermons from Calvinist preachers and those who have echoed them.

Have never heard a Calvinist preacher nor sermon echoing them in my life.

The Bible does not say anywhere
"Faith without any kind of works saves but necessarily has to always have works."

Not "faith without works," but faith apart from (its) works (Romans 3:28), and
"by faith--not by (its) works" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

That is logically and philosophically built as an implication of how some people think these passages should be harmonized. It is not directly said anywhere.

Strawman. . .relevance? . . .proves nothing.

Nor is "God is Trinity" directly stated anywhere,
nor is "Jesus is God" directly stated anywhere,
nor is "the Holy Spirit is God" directly stated anywhere.

It is directly said in "saved through faith--not by works." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
It is directly said in "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:26)

That doesn't mean it's wrong, per se, but it's an implication logically deduced. I believed it for awhile.

By saying the phrase "You see that a Person is justified by works and not faith alone" is a more clear and direct statement than all the verses saying we are not justified by "works," I am not "pitting Scripture against Scripture" anymore than you are by contradicting the clear statement that works play a part in justification.

According to NT apostolic teaching, works do not play a part in justification, works play a part in faith, which faith justifies apart from its works (Romans 3:28).

There are different kinds of works.

There are no works of any kind involved in salvation (remission of sin) and justification (imputed/credited righteousness by faith, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-11). And that is because

"Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10), ALL of it!
His and his alone (Revelation 19:1; Psalms 37:39).
Man contributes nothing, his works of faith contribute NOTHING,
for he must have nothing about which he could possibly boast.
(Romans 3:27, Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9)

This is not just an incidental matter in the NT. This is major.
For God does not give his glory to (Isaiah 42:8), nor share it with (Isaiah 48:11), anyone.

That harmonizes Scripture. That allows James 2:4 to stand.

James 2:4 stands because works are part of true faith, but justification is by faith apart from faith's works. That does not "pit Scripture against Scripture."

The criticism is nothing but a straw man that the objector employs himself in a hypocritical fashion.

That statement itself is the strawman.
There is no pitting of Scripture against Scripture in mine above, nor any criticism in a hypocritical fashion.

 

[Clare73]

This is a direct contradiction of James 2:24:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:24 ESV)

Previously addressed in posts #4901, #4875.

Biblical demonstration of their disagreement with Scripture?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I sin a thousand times a second. Every individual sin is worthy of hell.


Depends on how you define it.


Some might define habitual as a volitional pursuit of a sin, rather than simply not being able to help it.


Well, there are more than one kind of habit. Breathing is a habit, but it's not a volitional habit.


The only way to take that literally is to believe in sinless perfectionism.

Last I checked you fought against that very hard... have you changed your position finally?

I’ll address this after work . Thanks for responding.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

This is a direct contradiction of James 2:24:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:24 ESV)

He is elaborating not contradicting his previous statement of faith without works is dead . He is saying the same in reverse . They are 2 sides of the same coin .

 

[QvQ]

Do you see any difference between Karma and God's judgment?
What I am describing is judgment, not Karma...

If the judgement is based on works then it is Karma.

 

[All Glory To God]

Well, you apparently hold Calvin in high esteem. I only mention the history because this is a centuries old argument. I have Laurence M Vance's book on Calvinism and it does provide a lot of information on the subject.
One interesting snippet is on page 43 "..whether or not any of the early Church Fathers taught what today is "Calvinism" is really immaterial for two reasons given by Calvinists themselves. First the is the fact that the real issue was never whether salvation was received by the free will of man or by an irresistible decree." They were busy writing against the pagans and Jews.
Augustine was a major source of the theology to which the Calvinists were exposed.
Taken from:
Vance publications "The Other Side of Calvinism"
ISBN 0-9628898-7-3

What is it with senior citizens being so stubborn?

I called you out on your blatant disregard for facts and illustrated how you are just cobbling anything together things that sound plausible in order to support your anti-calvinst agenda, all you do is continue with book references with anti-calvinsts. No introspection, no time to consider what has been said just straight onto the next planned talking point.

 

[Receivedgrace]

What is it with senior citizens being so stubborn?

I called you out on your blatant disregard for facts and illustrated how you are just cobbling anything together things that sound plausible in order to support your anti-calvinst agenda, all you do is continue with book references with anti-calvinsts. No introspection, no time to consider what has been said just straight onto the next planned talking point.

Are you so programmed into Calvinism that you cannot address objective analysis of the subject?
Simply put Calvin did not say what Calvinists attribute to him.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I sin a thousand times a second. Every individual sin is worthy of hell.


Depends on how you define it.


Some might define habitual as a volitional pursuit of a sin, rather than simply not being able to help it.


Well, there are more than one kind of habit. Breathing is a habit, but it's not a volitional habit.


The only way to take that literally is to believe in sinless perfectionism.

Last I checked you fought against that very hard... have you changed your position finally?

One sins because they choose to sin and disobey God . No one makes a person sin it’s done by their own volition . Sinning is a willful choice on our part . We choose to be a slave of righteousness or a slave to sin . And with every temptation that comes our way God has provided a way of escape so that we do not sin . 1 Corinthians 10:13

“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[zoidar]

One sins because they choose to sin and disobey God . No one makes a person sin it’s done by their own volition . Sinning is a willful choice on our part . We choose to be a slave of righteousness or a slave to sin . And with every temptation that comes our way God has provided a way of escape so that we do not sin . 1 Corinthians 10:13

“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

hope this helps !!!

I heard this story. There was this man that went to Lord's supper for forgiveness of his sins. Before he came back to his seat he had sinned again. Some hold this view concerning sin.

 

[Emun]

I understand why people think that and that the god of calvinism is a "monster " with double predestination and the creation of most humankind with no choice due to election/predestination for hell. Its a misunderstanding of Gods nature/character especially when it comes to love.

No parent would say they love all their 10 children yet only rescue 2 of them from the fire in the house when he could of saved them all and let the other 8 burn and die. That is unloving , not loving. But this is what calvinism teaches through their doctrines of grace called tulip.

Double predestination seems to be biblical if we consider Pharao or Esau.

 

[mccafferty1]

One sins because they choose to sin and disobey God . No one makes a person sin it’s done by their own volition . Sinning is a willful choice on our part . We choose to be a slave of righteousness or a slave to sin . And with every temptation that comes our way God has provided a way of escape so that we do not sin . 1 Corinthians 10:13

“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.”

hope this helps !!!

Thanks for clarifying that. It's actually quite simple, It's a shame we have to complicate it.

 

[mccafferty1]

If the judgement is based on works then it is Karma.

Bad karma... I think I used to post on that forum

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Bad karma... I think I used to post on that forum

It’s misspelled, Bad CARMA

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I heard this story. There was this man that went to Lord's supper for forgiveness of his sins. Before he came back to his seat he had sinned again. Some hold this view concerning sin.

Do you really think your one verse ripped from the greater context of scripture below trumps all these that contradict your view ?


Jesus teaching

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching:

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

Paul's teaching:

Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be !

Galatians 5
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Colossians 3
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.



Peters Teaching

1 Peter 1
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

1 Peter 4
As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And we have James 2 and Jude 1 we can add as well to the above list.

hope this helps !!!

 

[zoidar]

Do you really think your one verse ripped from the greater context of scripture below trumps all these that contradict your view ?


Jesus teaching

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching:

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

Paul's teaching:

Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be !

Galatians 5
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Colossians 3
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.



Peters Teaching

1 Peter 1
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

1 Peter 4
As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And we have James 2 and Jude 1 we can add as well to the above list.

hope this helps !!!

I think you might have mistook me for Dizerner...

 

[All Glory To God]

Are you so programmed into Calvinism that you cannot address objective analysis of the subject?
Simply put Calvin did not say what Calvinists attribute to him.

It's not a question of me having some kind of mental blocks. I consider myself a honest learner in pursuit of the truth. I just don't consider you a reliable person to receive information from on this topic. You do not even know the sequence of the Reformation. You need to humble yourself and put yourself in the place where you need to be, based on your ability: Student, not teacher!