What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[QvQ]

You should avail yourself of internet resources where John MacArthur and John Piper wrestle specifically with 1 Timothy 2:4 - its quite the dance.

Timothy 1 2-4
There are commentaries written by Calvin that are easy to find. You might read what Calvin actually said about Timothy.

 

[Clare73]

You should avail yourself of internet resources where John MacArthur and John Piper wrestle specifically with 1 Timothy 2:4 - its quite the dance.

Deuteronomy 29:29 answers it all for me, while Exodus 4:21 and Exodus 4:23 illustrate it for me.

I have no further questions in that regard.
I am content with God's ways.

 

[Clare73]

I don't understand what you mean.

God's grace is infinite, but does God give it to all?

Christ's merit is infinite, but does God give it to all?

 

[zoidar]

God's grace is infinite, but does God give it to all?

Christ's merit is infinite, but does God give it to all?

What does that have to do with the argument?

 

[Clare73]

What does that have to do with the argument?

It applies to Christ's atonement, which merit is infinite, but God does not give it to all, his application of it is limited.

 

[zoidar]

It applies to Christ's atonement, which merit is infinite, but God does not give it to all, his application of it is limited.

That's the same as we say that the application is limited, but we say the punishment was infinite in width, depth, and amount of people. Christ been punished for all (universal), forgiveness applied to those who believe (limited).

What I was saying was that even if Christ was punished only for the elect, they were separated from Christ and children of wrath before they believed. Why is it then hard to believe Christ was punished for all, but all won't be saved since there are those who are children of wrath, separated from Christ? We both believe an unbeliever is separated from Christ and a child of wrath until he believes, right?

If God is holding someone accountable for sin Jesus has been punished for, isn't that unjust? If they are children of wrath I guess God is holding them accountable for their sins, even Jesus was punished for their sins. The same argument as God punishing sins twice.

 

[John Mullally]

Again, how does the lost get the willingness to allow God to change their will?

As you know, I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts sinners and can get them to chose to repent which results in regeneration per Acts 2:38-39.

It sounded to me like you were saying that I believe what I do because Calvin did.

The title of this thread is "What is wrong with Calvinism?" and you have been defending his positions.

Yes, obviously we see something different by "true decision making". You conflate "God desires" with "God decrees, plans, sovereignly wills". God has given us his will two ways: 1. His revealed will, or his command; 2. His hidden will, his plan.

First of all, I don't believe God decrees our actions. I know God's ways are not our ways. Nevertheless, if God commands man to do a particular thing, he cannot decree he do something else without being culpable in a transgression.

Of course his command can be disobeyed! How is him telling us to do something, fully knowing we won't, going to change his plan? We do the same thing with our kids; how much more can God, whose plan does not change, who knows the end from the beginning, tell us what to do, knowing whether we will or not —in fact, planning for it to be what it will end up being!

Your analogy does not work because you assume God decrees our every action and yet we don't have that power over our children.

Only if one interprets it, rather illogically, to mean that God had hopes, even plans, (but we messed that up for him) that absolutely everyone who ever lived or will live will be saved.

If you really believe what 1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly says you cannot believe that God has planned anyone to be damned.

Anyhow, I see several different ways it could be taken, and two of which are no different from our common talk. The verse does not defeat Calvinist doctrine, but rather, upholds it, and, it also makes good logical sense, unlike your use of it. Here is one of the well exegeted uses of it: 1 Timothy 2:4 - An Exegesis - Alpha and Omega Ministries (aomin.org)

In that link, John Piper gets into the two wills of God you mentioned earlier. I reject that theory for the following reason: This has God decreeing that people do evil - which would make God a party in the transgression.

Depends on what one means by determinism. To one person it implies that God's purpose in creating the ultimately condemned was only, or at least primarily, to condemn them (which is obviously false). To me it only means that God has determined (caused) all things. To meditate on what God has done, his wondrous works, his wisdom, his authority, his mercy, love and grace toward helpless and rebellious sinners deserving of Hell, (All of those things are inherent in Christian Determinism.) is "wisdom [directly] from scripture", and worthy ("constructive", as you say) for the mind to dwell on. In fact, even the condemnation of the reprobate is worth thinking about, as Romans 9 implies, for our understanding of the Purity, Holiness and Justice and Glory of God.

I won't be meditating on this brand of determinism.

 

[QvQ]

If you really believe what 1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly says you cannot believe that God has planned anyone to be damned.

In context, Timothy is a command to pray for all men to be saved. In context, it is not exactly as you say.
Again, there is commentary online by Calvin himself. It is easy to find and easy to read.

 

[Clare73]

That's the same as we say that the application is limited, but we say the punishment was infinite in width and depth. Christ been punished for all (universal), forgiveness applied to those who believe (limited).

What I was saying was that even if Christ was punished only for the elect, they were separated from Christ and children of wrath before they believed. Why is it then hard to believe Christ was punished for all, but all won't be saved since there are those who are children of wrath, separated from Christ? We both believe an unbeliever is separated from Christ and a child of wrath until he believes, right?

If God is holding someone accountable for sin Jesus has been punished for, isn't that unjust? If they are children of wrath I guess God is holding them accountable for their sins, even Jesus was punished for their sins. The same argument as God punishing sins twice.

I've changed horses in the middle of the stream.

The infinite merit of Jesus' satisfaction belongs only to God and is applied by God on his terms.
It's the same with God's infinite grace.

 

[zoidar]

Understood in light of the whole counsel of God ....

How do you understand what the whole counsel of God says? I think you do by reading different passages, understanding each of them and then see how they go together. When you say "the whole counsel of God" it seems to me you are saying how you understand Scripure as a whole.

 

[Clare73]

How do you understand what the whole counsel of God says? I think you do by reading different passages, understanding each of them and then see how they go together. When you say "the whole counsel of God" it seems to me
you are saying how you understand Scripure as a whole, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, it means in light of all Scripture. . .

 

[zoidar]

I've changed horses in the middle of the stream.

The infinite merit of Jesus' satisfaction belongs only to God and is applied by God on his terms.
It's the same with God's infinite grace.

Nothing wrong with changing horses.

 

[John Mullally]

In context, Timothy is a command to pray for all men to be saved. In context, it is not exactly as you say.
Again, there is commentary online by Calvin himself. It is easy to find and easy to read.

The text goes much further than "praying for all men to be saved" - it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

 

[Der Alte]

The text goes much further than "praying for all men to be saved" - it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

What did Jesus say?

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

What did Paul say about "all" being saved?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17

 

[zoidar]

The text goes much further than "praying for all men to be saved" - it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

This is Calvin:

"4 Who wishes that all men may be saved. Here follows a confirmation of the second argument; and what is more reasonable than that all our prayers should be in conformity with this decree of God?

And may come to the acknowledgment of the truth. Lastly, he demonstrates that God has at heart the salvation of all, because he invites all to the acknowledgment of his truth."​

It does sound like Calvin believed God wants all men to be saved.

 

[QvQ]

it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".

If you read Calvin's Commentary, he agrees with you and he states that God commanded all men to hear the gospel.
No man saves himself. It is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Now if you believe it is cooperation or totally the work of the Spirit, the fact remains the Holy Spirit does not regenerate all men.
Now saying my mother was dense, sinful, a child of wrath or willfully denying God just doesn't cut it.
Saying God desired but couldn't save all is practically blasphemy.
Calvin and all the good people on this thread have noted this "God desires" but fact is, not all are.
Perhaps God, at this point in time, does not want all men saved. That is according to His plan or as Calvin stated, "His secret councils."
However, we must act as commanded; pray and spread the Gospel.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It applies to Christ's atonement, which merit is infinite, but God does not give it to all, his application of it is limited.

No God doesn’t limit it at all , man rejects Gods provision which is available to all without exception. 1 John 2:2,
John 3:16-18.

hope this helps !!!

 

[zoidar]

No God doesn’t limit it at all , man rejects Gods provision which is available to all without exception. 1 John 2:2,
John 3:16-18.

hope this helps !!!

I think you can say God limits the application of the atonement, the way God has decided to only apply the effect of the atonement to a person when he receives Christ. What do you think? But I see that Clare meant something else.

I think of it like we are united to Christ through the Holy Spirit, like we hung on that cross.

I'm undecided on penal substitution.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Timothy 1 2-4
There are commentaries written by Calvin that are easy to find. You might read what Calvin actually said about Timothy.

Or James White, or scores of others. It really isn't that difficult an exegesis.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If God is holding someone accountable for sin Jesus has been punished for, isn't that unjust? If they are children of wrath I guess God is holding them accountable for their sins, even Jesus was punished for their sins. The same argument as God punishing sins twice.

Exactly. So who says God punished Christ for all mankind's sin? Universalists, for starters...