What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

Where does your definition of grace come from?

What John Mullally described is grace: "been tossed a lifebuoy and to hold on to it". You holding on to the lifebuoy doesn't remove or diminish grace, if anything it is establishing grace. If we couldn't say "no" it wouldn't be grace. To mean grace is only where God controls all dimensions I don't find biblical.

The gift of grace can be resisted, grace "can't" since it's already in line with your decision.

If one's act can establish grace, it isn't grace.

The logic that says, "If we couldn't say "no" it wouldn't be grace", is faulty. It is grace that God created the Bride of Christ; that creation began with no help from us. Neither did the regeneration of each member, which is part of that creation. The completed 'product' is by God's decree, not ours.

And just to clarify, whether grace is resistible or not, is not the point of 'irresistible grace'. It is a specific reference to the work of God in changing the heart and will of the unbeliever, by taking up residence within the person who had not yet been born again. THAT is the grace God gives to his elect, and not by their fallen willing consent.

 

[QvQ]

I have never thought much about sin or law.
When I was a unregenerate sinner, sin was fun, mostly. When I saw the "Light" l changed, my life changed and it is even more better fun.
I have faith in God.

 

[John Mullally]

If one's act can establish grace, it isn't grace.

The logic that says, "If we couldn't say "no" it wouldn't be grace", is faulty. It is grace that God created the Bride of Christ; that creation began with no help from us. Neither did the regeneration of each member, which is part of that creation. The completed 'product' is by God's decree, not ours.

And just to clarify, whether grace is resistible or not, is not the point of 'irresistible grace'. It is a specific reference to the work of God in changing the heart and will of the unbeliever, by taking up residence within the person who had not yet been born again. THAT is the grace God gives to his elect, and not by their fallen willing consent.

The Holy Spirit is frequently resisted per Acts 7:51. Grace can also be resisted per Galatians 2:21. God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and Christ’s ransom was paid for all men (1 Timothy 2:6), but salvation and the accompanying regeneration is only received by faith and repentance (Romans 1:16-17, Mark 16:16, Hebrews 4:1-2, Acts 2:38-39, and Romans 10:6-10). The Bible does not say the Holy Spirit regenerates men so that they can believe the Gospel. The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:8-11). It is Satan, not God, that is working to veil the gospel from the perishing (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

Per the pattern seen in Ezekiel 18, the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration (receiving a new heart and spirit) begins with repentance. Calvinists reverse the order to get their doctrine to work.

Ezekiel 18: 30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” NKJV​

 

[QvQ]

The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:8-11). It is Satan, not God, that is working to veil the gospel from the perishing (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

So, a person, on hearing the Word, decides to believe (faith). Then the Holy Spirit convicts him, instructs him, chastises him until he repents.? (salvation)
Is that the order?
What denomination is that? I mean the foundational denomination?

 

[John Mullally]

So, a person, on hearing the Word, decides to believe (faith). Then the Holy Spirit convicts him, instructs him, chastises him until he repents.? (salvation)
Is that the order?

The Gospel in accordance with the NT is preached, the Holy Spirit uses the content of the Gospel to convict the sinner, and then the sinner makes a decision as their is a cost involved in responding positively. The sinner's decision may include an immediate dismal or it could be delayed as the message sinks in.

What denomination is that? I mean the foundational denomination?

Most evangelicals.

 

[QvQ]

the Holy Spirit uses the content of the Gospel to convict the sinner, and then the sinner makes a decision as their is a cost involved in responding positively.

What cost? It sounds like a court (Holy Spirit) and a prison sentence (salvation) with the prisoner free to walk out the door but as outlaw.

Most evangelicals.

Protestant?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Holy Spirit is frequently resisted per Acts 7:51. Grace can also be resisted per Galatians 2:21. God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and Christ’s ransom was paid for all men (1 Timothy 2:6), but salvation and the accompanying regeneration is only received by faith and repentance (Romans 1:16-17, Mark 16:16, Hebrews 4:1-2, Acts 2:38-39, and Romans 10:6-10). The Bible does not say the Holy Spirit regenerates men so that they can believe the Gospel. The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:8-11). It is Satan, not God, that is working to veil the gospel from the perishing (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

Did you not read what I said? I do not say that grace cannot be resisted. I said that "IRRESTIBLE GRACE" is a reference to one specific gracious thing that God does by regenerating the person.

We've been through this too many times already. The dead in sin will not, and cannot turn to Christ or truly repent.

Per the pattern seen in Ezekiel 18, the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration (receiving a new heart and spirit) begins with repentance. Calvinists reverse the order to get their doctrine to work.

Ezekiel 18: 30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” NKJV

If you have man causing his own repentance, then you have cause-and-effect backwards, and man has whereof to boast. Notice how repentance in your reference here is not claimed to cause the new heart and new spirit. It is concurrent. It is exasperating to get through to you the mindset that says we can do anything for which God is obligated to return us a favor. Regeneration always causes repentance. THAT is the 'mechanism' (if one can even consider it as such), not by our works, which is specifically denied in Ephesians 2 as the cause of Grace and Salvific Faith.

Yet you have all eternity hinging on the fickle will of man!

 

[John Mullally]

What cost?

Jesus talks about the cost of being His disciple in Luke 14:26-30.

It sounds like a court (Holy Spirit) and a prison sentence (salvation) with the prisoner free to walk out the door but as outlaw.

What you are saying is so foreign to me, that I will not respond to it.

Protestant?

Here is a list of supporting protestant evangelical denominations that I believe support my view: Non-reformed Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Anabaptists, Pentecostals, Charismatics, WOF, Calvary Chapel, most non-denominationals.

 

[zoidar]

Did you not read what I said? I do not say that grace cannot be resisted. I said that "IRRESTIBLE GRACE" is a reference to one specific gracious thing that God does by regenerating the person.

We've been through this too many times already. The dead in sin will not, and cannot turn to Christ or truly repent.



If you have man causing his own repentance, then you have cause-and-effect backwards, and man has whereof to boast. Notice how repentance in your reference here is not claimed to cause the new heart and new spirit. It is concurrent. It is exasperating to get through to you the mindset that says we can do anything for which God is obligated to return us a favor. Regeneration always causes repentance. THAT is the 'mechanism' (if one can even consider it as such), not by our works, which is specifically denied in Ephesians 2 as the cause of Grace and Salvific Faith.

Yet you have all eternity hinging on the fickle will of man!

Repentance is not a work, so repentance gives no reason to boast.

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:27-28

 

[zoidar]

The logic that says, "If we couldn't say "no" it wouldn't be grace", is faulty. It is grace that God created the Bride of Christ; that creation began with no help from us. Neither did the regeneration of each member, which is part of that creation. The completed 'product' is by God's decree, not ours.

And just to clarify, whether grace is resistible or not, is not the point of 'irresistible grace'. It is a specific reference to the work of God in changing the heart and will of the unbeliever, by taking up residence within the person who had not yet been born again. THAT is the grace God gives to his elect, and not by their fallen willing consent.

The "act" of receiving is obviously not a work. What I meant by "establishing" was that unless the gift of grace is received it is without effect, and the gift can't fulfill it's purpose.

David prayed for grace. If you are right, what David would receive through prayer wouldn't be grace. But it says he prayed for grace.

Be gracious to me, O Lord, for I am pining away; Heal me, O Lord, for my bones are dismayed.
— Psalm 6:2

Grace is a gift of God that can be received through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
— Ephesians 2:8

 

[John Mullally]

Did you not read what I said? I do not say that grace cannot be resisted. I said that "IRRESTIBLE GRACE" is a reference to one specific gracious thing that God does by regenerating the person.

I have not found your one specific irresistible gracious thing that God does (i.e. regenerate a man so that he can believe) in scripture.

We've been through this too many times already. The dead in sin will not, and cannot turn to Christ or truly repent.

Paul says that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation and Jesus says that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment - so put them together. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink - God will not do for man what He commands him to do - i.e. repent.

If you have man causing his own repentance, then you have cause-and-effect backwards, and man has whereof to boast. Notice how repentance in your reference here is not claimed to cause the new heart and new spirit. It is concurrent. It is exasperating to get through to you the mindset that says we can do anything for which God is obligated to return us a favor.

Your cause and effect doctrine is just fatalism repackaged. There would be no need for a myriad of directives in the Bible if everything is predetermined. A man does not boast when he is drowning and is offered a life line.

The first "and" term in Ezekiel 18:31 shows a progression. Receipt of a new heart and a new spirit from God occurs in response to our repentance (cast away transgressions). You have it the other way around. Note that "Repent! Turn away from your offenses is also in the previous verse - order matters.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?​

Regeneration always causes repentance. THAT is the 'mechanism' (if one can even consider it as such), not by our works, which is specifically denied in Ephesians 2 as the cause of Grace and Salvific Faith.

There is no scripture that says God regenerates man in order that he can repent. Romans 10:17 says that faith comes from hearing the word of God - think of that as a form of grace given to men.

Concerning works: Was Peter on the day of Pentecost promoting a works based salvation when he proclaimed Acts 2:38-39? In that passage Peter promises the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit (this is arguably salvation) to those who repent and are baptized.

Yet you have all eternity hinging on the fickle will of man!

Jesus puts the responsibility squarely on men for their own eternal destiny.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​

 

[QvQ]

Jesus talks about the cost of being His disciple in Luke 14:26-30.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matthew 11: 28-29

What you are saying is so foreign to me, that I will not respond to it.

The person hears the Word, then decides to believe. The Holy Spirit convicts that person, a person repents. Then the person is pardoned, paroled or whatever into Salvation. After salvation, if he sins or doesn't believe he loses his salvation?

Does a person have to repent to be 'acceptable" before that person can be saved?. Does that mean that person has to clean himself up to become a Christian and if he breaks probation, sins again after salvation, he can again be outlawed? (lose his salvation).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Repentance is not a work, so repentance gives no reason to boast.

Repentance without causation by the Spirit of God, by a non-believer, is works.

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:27-28

Agreed totally. How does that apply to a non-believer that generates his own faith?

 

[John Mullally]

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matthew 11: 28-29

The person hears the Word, then decides to believe. The Holy Spirit convicts that person, a person repents. Then the person is pardoned, paroled or whatever into Salvation.

This is much better. Salvation includes the man's spirit being born-again. He still has a mind that needs to be renewed by the word of God (Romans 12:2) and he still has flesh that is always going to give him problems (1 Corinthians 9:27).

After salvation, if he sins or doesn't believe he loses his salvation?

He needs to repent and confess his sin to God (1 John 1:9).

Does a person have to repent to be 'acceptable" before that person can be saved?

Review Acts 2:25-41 to see how Peter preached the Gospel on the day of Pentecost. Was he preaching a Gospel of works when he promised "Remission of sins" and the "gift of the Holy Spirit" to those who repented and were baptized? It may sound like it - but the fact that it is in the book of Acts should tell you something.

Does that mean that person has to clean himself up to be Christian and if he breaks probation, sins again after salvation, he can again be outlawed? (lose his salvation).

This is a contentious point. I believe if he is a mature Christian, he can renounce his faith and be lost (Hebrews 6:4-8). But before that occurs, I believe the Lord will pursue Him to turn back.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The "act" of receiving is obviously not a work. What I meant by "establishing" was that unless the gift of grace is received it is without effect, and the gift can't fulfill it's purpose.

If 'received' is not an act of the will, then I agree, but what about if it is received by faith that is generated by the non-believer? That is not salvific faith. Further, if the faith and the grace are totally the work of God, yes, it is absolutely effectual. How not?

David prayed for grace. If you are right, what David would receive through prayer wouldn't be grace. But it says he prayed for grace.

Be gracious to me, O Lord, for I am pining away; Heal me, O Lord, for my bones are dismayed.
— Psalm 6:2

Grace is a gift of God that can be received through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
— Ephesians 2:8

David wasn't asking for salvation of his soul. He was asking for mercy because of his illness/weakness.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The Spirit comes after faith, confession, repentance.

Anyone granted eyes to see knows the BIBLICAL order below and scripture is consistent in both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving

Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Romans 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Romans 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Romans 8:30
9- Sanctification- Romans 8
10- Glorification Romans 8:30


conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.

 

[zoidar]

That was not my intention. What I meant was simply that the Bride's initial agreement is not necessary in at least some cases, for a happy marriage. Just for that reason alone, the claim concerning the necessity of the Bride's agreement in supporting synergism in salvation is suspect. There are other reasons that make it invalid, but that one reason is enough to disprove it.

I don't think how we view marriage supports synergism or monergism. I just think it's a beautiful image, God choosing us and we choosing him, like a marriage (of this kind).

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I don't think how we view marriage supports synergism or monergism. I just think it's a beautiful image, God choosing us and we choosing him, like a marriage (of this kind).

If anything it supports synergism , both parties make a commitment for life .

 

[QvQ]

He needs to repent and confess his sin to God (1 John 1:9).

A person who is unregenerate does not know what a sin is. It is their way of going and it either works to their benefit or not. Look at what and who is dancing in the streets with flags and placards.

Man is saved by the Will of God alone because it takes an Act of God, also known as the Holy Spirit to regenerate a man enough that a man even knows he is doing wrong.

This "believe" "condemned by the Holy Spirit" "confess and repent" ..then baptism and being paroled into Christianity is a new concept to me.

I have always thought of my faith as a revelation of God, by God through Christ and the Holy Spirit. God revealing Himself and establishing a relationship with me through His Word and the Holy Spirit .

 

[John Mullally]

A person who is unregenerate does not know what a sin is. It is their way of going and it either works to their benefit or not. Look at what and who is dancing in the streets with flags and placards.

Unregenerate still have a conscience and the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. The reference to "the world" here is not limited to the elect.

Man is saved by the Will of God alone because it takes an Act of God, also known as the Holy Spirit to regenerate a man enough that a man even knows he is doing wrong.

1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all to be saved. There is no scripture that says that the Holy Spirit regenerates a man so that he can believe or repent.

This "believe" "condemned by the Holy Spirit" "confess and repent" ..then baptism and being paroled into Christianity is a new concept to me.

Sounds like you are trying to work things out. The good news is that Jesus promises "seek and you will find" (Matt 7:7-11).

I have always thought of my faith as a revelation of God, by God through Christ and the Holy Spirit. God revealing Himself and establishing a relationship with me through His Word and the Holy Spirit .

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17). When God reveals Himself it will be in accordance to His word.