What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

Either way their unbelief resulted in preventing Jesus from demonstrating God's love and doing what He had done elsewhere.

Agreed. So....?

Excellent that you know the bible. I believe the passage was given to show why God's blessings are not received by all.

Practical application: For our own sake, be diligent in detecting and rooting out personal unbelief (see also Matt 16:23).

I'm sorry, but how does that say anything against Calvinism?

 

[John Mullally]

I expect you have heard of "holy dread"? Where is the real problem here? How can you show Calvin wrong here? And no, the fact it disturbs you is irrelevant.

Calvin confesses that what he is saying is dreadful. Yes, it is dreadfully out of alignment with the preaching of the Gospel in Acts 2. Peter preaching by the Holy Spirit promises salvation (which is a remedy) to those who repent and are baptized. If Calvin realized that God desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9), he would not impugn God's character by saying that He predestines some to eternal death.

“Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)​

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Where does 1 John 2:2 say "not just the elect"?

That’s how Calvinists interpret it not everyone just the elect .

 

[GenemZ]

Likewise with your response. . .

Polly want a cracker?

 

[Clare73]

Polly want a cracker?

Are you sharing your crackers?

 

[GenemZ]

That’s how Calvinists interpret it not everyone just the elect .

They want to interpret it that way. It fits well with their self image that way. Refusing to be transformed into His image by grace and truth. In effect, they try to save their life, and in the process lose their life in Christ.

All teaching is accepted on the basis of two things ... One must prefer to believe it. And, on the assumption its correctly interpreted. Just ask the fake news media how it works.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Tim 4:3​

A great number of teachers?

That is why Jesus warned the road to destruction is 'broad and wide.'

Out of all we know? Only a few will fight and be willing find the truth needed to serve with Christ. We are facing that right now... Its called "the good fight."


grace and peace .....

 

[zoidar]

I don't see proof, I see preference of one of the options; i.e.,
1) all without distinction, or
2) all without exception.

And I see that preferred option as contradicting the whole counsel of God.

Can you show John 3:17 is all without distinction?

 

[Clare73]

Can you show John 3:17 is all without distinction?

Yes. . .one more time:

John 6:65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me."
John 6:39 - "I shall lose none of all that he has given me."

Do "all without exception" come?. . .you do the math.

Now, can you show that it is "all without exception," in context of the whole counsel of God?

 

[Mark Quayle]

We can discuss that, but the gospel is not about how we believe, but that we believe.

The gospel is also about the Grace of God, and that necessarily includes how we come to believe.

No, we cannot generate that kind of faith. We need to repent so God will generate that faith in us. I don't think our eternity hangs on our willpower, but on His mercy to forgive.

Yet, to say that repentance comes first (causally) necessarily implies the choice to repent (chosen according to one's will) is the hinge. And the Bible addresses this question. "Which were born, not of...the will of man, but of God"

I don't think it gives God honor to say our promises to follow Him as servants are ridiculous, if you mean that. We are children of God and if our promise is sincere, God looks at us with joy and honors that promise. We can take pride in making ourselves "great", but we can also take pride in making ourselves "worthless". Neither glorifies God. Not saying you do that, but I see it happen.

My point there, I think is self-evident, that our ability to be sincere, particularly about spiritual things, is too easily changed, even as believers. How much more so, before we believe, while we are dead in our sins?

'Worthless' in one use is, in another it isn't. "Worthless" is, maybe usually, hyperbole, but if I use it to describe either the huge difference between finite and infinite, the description is close enough, but when it is altogether accurate, I think is when we ascribe value to our will and heart apart from God in us, or apart from God's use for us.

I'm a bit puzzled how we see these things so differently. Still we are of the same body, have the same Lord, and we have to be thankful for that. You have said many nice things about me, so it's my turn to say something. I have noticed you are a good thinker and I'm sure you are much further in your studies of philosophy than I am. To me these discussions feel a bit like, you "win" some, you "lose" some, and I think that is natural when it comes to these huge questions.

Btw, did you see the video I posted with Gavin (Calvinism isn't crazy)?

Doesn't ring a bell by the name, so probably not. I must have missed it, unless it was very long, and I decided not to spend my limited data. Can you link it again?

 

[Mark Quayle]

That’s how Calvinists interpret it not everyone just the elect .

That does not answer the question. How does the verse say, "Not just the elect"

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

That does not answer the question. How does the verse say, "Not just the elect"

He is the propitiation not only for our sins ( believers ) but for the whole world ( all unbelievers).

 

[Mark Quayle]

These last posts make me think of Bill Clinton and his definition of what is, is.

“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement". …
(footnote 1,128 in Starr’s report)

You might find this thread interesting. In the video he, too, mentions the "what is, is" statement. Rather humorously, too, I thought.
Philosophy: First Cause is. Everything else is becoming. | Christian Forums

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well in this case, "Hide the ball" includes pretending to know little about a subject when it serves your best interest, and then pointing to a 500 page document for backup without providing details.

I apologize. I think I misunderstood the particulars of your first mention of Hide the Ball, then. My bad.

 

[zoidar]

Yes. . .one more time:

John 6:65 - "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me."
John 6:39 - "I shall lose none of all that he has given me."

Do all come?. . .you do the math.

Now, can you show that it is "all without exception," in context of the whole counsel of God?

Ok, you are showing the Father needs "to give", for a person to come to Jesus. You know it's the same Greek word for "give" in John 6:37, 39 and "enable" in John 6:65. How does that prove who "the world" is refering to in John 3:16-17? That God needs to draw people by the Holy Spirit no one is denying. So I don't see what that proves. Also we need to discuss what "give" in John 6 actually means, before it can be used to prove anything.

“For God so loved the world (mankind), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him ("whoever" means it's open for both those who deny him and those who receive him) shall not perish, but have eternal life.
— John 3:16

For God did not send the Son into the world (among mankind) to judge the world (those that don't believe), but that the world (those who believe) might be saved through Him.
— John 3:17

It's showing that Jesus was sent for everyone, the whole world of individuals. It shows those that "deny Jesus" are included in "the whoever".

"In context of the whole counsel of God"? I can't do that. But I do my best to understand each part of the Bible to get the full picture.

 

[Clare73]

Ok, you are showing the Father needs "to give", for a person to come to Jesus. You know it's the same Greek word for "give" in John 6:37, 39 and "enable" in John 6:65.

Is English your second language?

I hope you'll understand if I do not labor the logic for you.

 

[zoidar]

Is English your second language?

I hope you'll understand if I do not labor the logic for you.

It's my second language, yes, and?

 

[Clare73]

It's my second language, yes, and?

Just wondering if that's why you do not see the logic. . .

 

[zoidar]

Just wondering if that's why you do not see the logic. . .

I like to ask you a question. When you read the Bible, do you look at each passage from every possible angle and try to really understand what each passage you are reading really says? And that before you start to compare it with other passages? That is how I read the Bible.

 

[Clare73]

I like to ask you a question. When you read the Bible, do you look at each passage from every possible angle and try to really understand what each passage you are reading really says? And that before you start to compare it with other passages? That is how I read the Bible.

No, I look at it in the context of the whole counsel of God . .it is not open to every possible angle, it is open only to the mind of Scripture as revealed in the whole counsel of God.

You did not address my response to the NT not allowing "all without exception."

 

[zoidar]

No, I look at it in the context of the whole counsel of God . .it is not open to every possible angle, it is open only to the mind of Scripture as revealed in the whole counsel of God.

Sounds like you have a predetermined picture of what the whole counsel of God says before you read the Bible. I think that's the problem.

You did not address my response to the NT not allowing "all without exception."

"Allowing" is your word.

I think when a person repents the Holy Spirit is granting the person entrance to the kingdom of God. He is "allowed in" to use your language. Those who believe "have been enabled" through their faith to come to Jesus. And that faith has been given them by God.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
— John 6:64-65