What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[GenemZ]

Are you, real sure about that?

[1]Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to
gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"

[2]1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?

[3]Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?

[4]Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.​

Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?

[5]Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.​

Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?

[6]Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,​

Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"

[7]Acts 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?​

Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?

[8]Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.​

Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"

[9]Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.​

Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"

[10]Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth​

Did "all Asia all the world" literally worship the pagan deity Diana?

[11]Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

Was the faith of the church at Roman literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"

[12]John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.​

Did the whole world literally go after Jesus?

[13]Acts of the apostles 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;​

Did the Paul’s companions literally turn “the world upside down?”

[14]1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

Did the “ends of the world” literally come upon the Israelites who disobeyed God at Sinai?

[15]James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.​

Is the tongue literally a world?

John has the habit of always putting his foot in his mouth....

(I suppose "foot" only holds one meaning?)

God wants us to think and to understand.... to gain wisdom.
God hates cleverness used to obfuscate and show off how clever they are.

I am glad that God tells me that such people I do not have to deal with. Just to tell the truth, and those who have ears to hear will get it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

For some folks, I ain't one of, "Plain sense" means if they don't agree with what is written they S.P.A.M.-Fig it, i.e. it is "symbolic,''"poetic,""allegory,""metaphor" or "figurative" anything but literal. Or they want to tell others what the Greek or Hebrew word "really means." Lexicons? "Oh no, they are all biased." Only the scholars of their particular religious group are truthful and trustworthy.

You have a point. But, like I have said, that door swings both ways.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That is not me I linked and quoted the source, sorry for any confusion. I was a hard line 5 pointer and supported double predestination.

I'm not sure if I said it to you, or others, but I think the question of double-predestination is a question asked wrong. It gives no consideration to the main reason God created those who are ultimately condemned.

 

[Clare73]

Paul was not at the Tower of Babel... OK.

How long do you want to drag this sort of thing on?

Well, there's Acts 17:6, 19:27, 35, 24:5, Luke 2:1; Romans 1:8; John 12:19 that could be considered in showing not all without exception.

 

[Clare73]

I'm not sure if I said it to you, or others, but I think the question of double-predestination is a question asked wrong. It gives no consideration to the main reason God created those who are ultimately condemned.

Is it not automatic with predestination to glory, in that everyone else is thereby automatically predestined to non-glory?

What am I missing here?

 

[Der Alte]

You have a point. But, like I have said, that door swings both ways.

Sometimes. But some groups more so than others.

 

[Der Alte]

John has the habit of always putting his foot in his mouth....
(I suppose "foot" only holds one meaning?)
God wants us to think and to understand.... to gain wisdom.
God hates cleverness used to obfuscate and show off how clever they are.
I am glad that God tells me that such people I do not have to deal with. Just to tell the truth, and those who have ears to hear will get it.

Who was this response intended for? It doesn't appear to address my post at all.

 

[John Mullally]

But you don't know what love is. All you have is your notion of it. You can't make a good use of Scripture concerning Predestination and God's use of secondary causes based on your notion of love.

Gods Love
Paul tells us what love is in 1 Corinthians 13 and God is love (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16).

Jesus demonstrates love in going to the cross for all men. Even in agony, He was present for the criminal admitting guilt, and He was present for his persecutors by asking Father to forgive them.

No one disputes Christians are to pray for others. Paul specifically gives Timothy reasons to pray for all men in 1 Timothy 2:1-6, and they include:

1. For believer's sake - so that we can live a quiet and peaceful life.
2. God desires all men to be saved.
3. Christ gave Himself a ransom for all.

Paul is communicating directly to Timothy about 15 years after the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. It is not like he is communicating to the pagans on Mars Hill or like Christ needing to use parables to avoid giving away too much information prematurely or casting pearls before swine. If Paul was referring to "all types of men" instead of "all men" in the text then he should have clearly stated that.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
​

Revealed: Faithful in Christ predestined for adoption as sons
I do know from Ephesians 1:1-6 that "the faithful in Christ" are "blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" and "predestined to adoption as sons".

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Redemption in Christ 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.​

Salvation Cause and Effect
God's methods are His business. Speaking in human terms, it is safe to deduce the following from Acts 2:
Cause: A man receives Holy Spirit led Gospel preaching, and responds in repentance and baptism.
Effect: As promised, the man receives remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (effectively salvation).

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

 

[GenemZ]

Well, there's Acts 17:6, 19:27, 35, 24:5, Luke 2:1; Romans 1:8; John 12:19 that could be considered in showing not all without exception.

Yet... Jesus died for all.

Why do you keep trying to shirk your responsibility on this matter? Being a workman needing not to be ashamed?

Who cares how else the word can be used in a different context? What are you trying to prove?

Well.... For whom did Jesus die for? You tell me, please.

 

[GenemZ]

Are you, real sure about that?

[1]Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to
gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"

[2]1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?

[3]Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?

[4]Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.​

Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?

[5]Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.​

Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?

[6]Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,​

Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"

[7]Acts 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?​

Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?

[8]Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.​

Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"

[9]Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.​

Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"

[10]Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth​

Did "all Asia all the world" literally worship the pagan deity Diana?

[11]Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

Was the faith of the church at Roman literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"

[12]John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.​

Did the whole world literally go after Jesus?

[13]Acts of the apostles 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;​

Did the Paul’s companions literally turn “the world upside down?”

[14]1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

Did the “ends of the world” literally come upon the Israelites who disobeyed God at Sinai?

[15]James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.​

Is the tongue literally a world?

Keep in mind. Once we crossover into union with Christ? We cease being of the world. We are no longer of this world.

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” Jn 18:36


I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world." Jn 17:14​

If we are now a new creation in Christ Jesus we are no longer of this world.

So, if Jesus only died for the whole world? He did not die for believers. Someone can play that game. ... maybe someone will!

 

[misput]

Gene Z did you check out psalms 22? where David is saying God did not forsake Jesus, I think it is down about verse 24.

PS: Clare and others believe Christ died only for those He predestined before the world began by causing them to want to be saved and the rest by causing them not to desire Him. I guess that is what they mean by second cause.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
The Bible is about the glory of God, and specifically, about the Gospel of grace.

I would disagree. The Bible is about God sending His Son to redeem mankind, the forgiveness through Christ.

Is that not about the Gospel? Is it not to his glory?

Gospel of grace? I don't know what that means. Are you refering to doctrines like "unconditional election"?

"Unconditional Election" is about Grace. We are saved by grace (specifically denying that it is by the will of man), the phrase refers to the fact that we cannot merit grace, nor are we more 'worth' saving than anyone else. The fact that he made us for a different purpose doesn't even merit us anything but is totally by his special love for those he has chosen for that purpose, and showed us mercy. That too, is about the Gospel. So no,I'm not referring doctrines like "unconditional election". I'm referring to the Gospel which is what those doctrines are about.

I know the gospel, that God sent His Son to die for our sins on the cross and was resurrected for our salvation, that whoever believes in him will be saved. That's the gospel to me.

HOW do we believe, then?

Have you plumbed the depths of the Gospel? None of us have. But if you think YOUR choosing to believe is the hinge upon which eternity swings, consider the height of Grace. And consider the depth of sin, and the ignorance of any of us to even really know what he is doing when he chooses to repent and obey, or the inability to be constant instead of fickle, and to know the power of burning purity of the God he is giving his heart to, and what it was for God to become man, and what really happened at the cross, and what a sacrifice it really was. Consider that only the Holy Spirit within us is up to this task, and to cause in us HIS saving faith; we can't generate that kind of faith, can we?

Yes, our will is intimately involved, more strongly than we even know, with the ridiculous promises we make to be what God demands of his servants, but it is not our will that drives us, but God's —by the Spirit of God indwelling us. We are reborn, not to independence, but dependence on him.

Only God can do this. And we do it because it is him doing it in us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is it not automatic with predestination to glory, in that everyone else is thereby automatically predestined to non-glory?

What am I missing here?

Yes, it is, and if you were to press me on that alone, I would heartily agree, yes, God has destined both. Romans 9 affirms it. But his main intent in creating those is not perdition, but his use of them. Perdition is necessarily part of it, and yes, they deserve it, as do we.

One reason I balk at it is also how it comes from the human POV, self-important and pretentious. I mean, it is obvious that he destined both! So why even the question? It is asked as though he needs us to agree that he is fair and just, so we can grace him with our acceptance. Baugh!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is it not automatic with predestination to glory, in that everyone else is thereby automatically predestined to non-glory?

What am I missing here?

However, I would not say, "automatic", because it is not just collateral damnage (haha, see what I did there?), and something that happens by necessary default, but something that God INTENDED to happen.

 

[misput]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
The Bible is about the glory of God, and specifically, about the Gospel of grace.


Is that not about the Gospel? Is it not to his glory?



"Unconditional Election" is about Grace. We are saved by grace (specifically denying that it is by the will of man), the phrase refers to the fact that we cannot merit grace, nor are we more 'worth' saving than anyone else. The fact that he made us for a different purpose doesn't even merit us anything but is totally by his special love for those he has chosen for that purpose, and showed us mercy. That too, is about the Gospel. So no,I'm not referring doctrines like "unconditional election". I'm referring to the Gospel which is what those doctrines are about.


HOW do we believe, then?

Have you plumbed the depths of the Gospel? None of us have. But if you think YOUR choosing to believe is the hinge upon which eternity swings, consider the height of Grace. And consider the depth of sin, and the ignorance of any of us to even really know what he is doing when he chooses to repent and obey, or the inability to be constant instead of fickle, and to know the power of burning purity of the God he is giving his heart to, and what it was for God to become man, and what really happened at the cross, and what a sacrifice it really was. Consider that only the Holy Spirit within us is up to this task, and to cause in us HIS saving faith; we can't generate that kind of faith, can we?

Yes, our will is intimately involved, more strongly than we even know, with the ridiculous promises we make to be what God demands of his servants, but it is not our will that drives us, but God's —by the Spirit of God indwelling us. We are reborn, not to independence, but dependence on him.

Only God can do this. And we do it because it is him doing it in us.

You seem to be saying we don't know, which I agree, so why are you and others insisting you do know?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Gods Love
Paul tells us what love is in 1 Corinthians 13 and God is love (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16).

Jesus demonstrates love in going to the cross for all men. Even in agony, He was present for the criminal admitting guilt, and He was present for his persecutors by asking Father to forgive them.

No one disputes Christians are to pray for others. Paul specifically gives Timothy reasons to pray for all men in 1 Timothy 2:1-6, and they include:

1. For believer's sake - so that we can live a quiet and peaceful life.
2. God desires all men to be saved.
3. Christ gave Himself a ransom for all.

Paul is communicating directly to Timothy about 15 years after the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. It is not like he is communicating to the pagans on Mars Hill or like Christ needing to use parables to avoid giving away too much information prematurely or casting pearls before swine. If Paul was referring to "all types of men" instead of "all men" in the text then he should have clearly stated that.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
​

Revealed: Faithful in Christ predestined for adoption as sons
I do know from Ephesians 1:1-6 that "the faithful in Christ" are "blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" and "predestined to adoption as sons".

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Redemption in Christ 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.​

Salvation Cause and Effect
God's methods are His business. Speaking in human terms, it is safe to deduce the following from Acts 2:
Cause: A man receives Holy Spirit led Gospel preaching, and responds in repentance and baptism.
Effect: As promised, the man receives remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (effectively salvation).

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

Are all ransomed?

 

[Mark Quayle]

You seem to be saying we don't know, which I agree, so why are you and others insisting you do know?

We don't, or do, know WHAT? We don't know the depths of anything about God. We do know some things about God.

 

[John Mullally]

Are all ransomed?

Although God provided for all through Christ's ransom (as previously quoted in 1 Tim 2:6), it is only received through faith.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
​

There are numerous scriptures that speak of being saved by faith besides just Ephesians 2:7-8 that you sometimes quote.
32 Bible verses about Saved By Faith and
What Does the Bible Say About According To Your Faith Let It Be Done?

A couple of times when people came to Jesus for healing, He turned it back on them saying: "Be it done to you according to your faith" and "all things are possible to him who believes" - I believe to provoke a more positive faith response from them. In other cases, he commended them with "your faith has made you whole", "your faith has saved you", "I have not seen such great faith in all of Israel", etc. Receiving from God requires faith.

In Nazareth (Mark 6:1-6), Jesus marveled at their unbelief (cause) which resulted in He could do no mighty works (effect).

 

[GenemZ]

Gene Z did you check out psalms 22? where David is saying God did not forsake Jesus, I think it is down about verse 24.

PS: Clare and others believe Christ died only for those He predestined before the world began by causing them to want to be saved and the rest by causing them not to desire Him. I guess that is what they mean by second cause.

Ps 22:24 as I read it does not indicate what you stated. Matter of fact, I could not find anything like that in Ps 22. Mind finding it, and copy and paste it, so I can see what I am missing, please?

As for being predestined? Yes.. We were chosen IN Him (Ephesians 1:4).

In Him? Just like the woman was in Adam before she was to be revealed. As Eve became bone of Adam's bones and flesh of his flesh? So are we going to be when He gives us a resurrection body just like his own glorious heavenly body. Right now we are hidden in Christ awaiting our resurrection body.

Now... Since OT saints will not be the Bride of Christ? They are the friend of the Groom. Clare and company will have to say Jesus did not predestine the likes of Moses, etc. For they were not chosen IN Christ to be His Bride. It gets messy when that kind of thinking is dogmatized and finally hits a wall of light. God's Word is light.

 

[RickReads]

God hates cleverness used to obfuscate and show off how clever they are.

Who you talking about here?

Also, if you have scripture stating such I would love to see it