What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[GenemZ]

I urge you to review the previous 149 pages. Lotta great stuff to read I tell ya.

What difference does it make? The "whole world" means the whole world.

I would rather avoid the spin if some are trying to prove that not to be true.

I do not watch MSNBC and CNN for my news for the same reason

 

[RickReads]

What difference does it make? The "whole world" means the whole world.

I would rather avoid the spin if some are trying to prove that not to be true.

I do not watch MSNBC and CNN for my news for the same reason

Take it easy brother, I get all my news from Gutfeld

 

[Clare73]

Prove from scripture and a lexicon reference your assumption with Jew/Gentiles with John 1:29. John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2.
World in each above references means all without distinction,
everyone, all the inhabitants of the world. BDAG, and Thayers affirm its true.

"All without distinction" does not mean "everyone,". . .that is the meaning of "all without exception."
"All without distinction" means Gentile as well as Jew, or Jew as well as Gentile, neither being all Jews nor all Gentiles.

It's good to know your references again affirm what I say. . .

 

[GenemZ]

Because from the NT former Jewish perspective, some times "all" and "world" mean all without distinction (both Gentile and Jew), rather than all without exception.

Who was Paul writing to? The "Romans." Gentiles primarily, and Jews.

Look at Genesis 11, verse 1...

Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there."​

That was before there were any Jews. (Yet, the ancestors to the Jews were in that number).

Some people tend to over intellectualize so much that they lose sight of what was to be seen. Seen if one did not over intellectualize and decided to seek real answers. Yawning from hypotheticals kills the chances of answers to be found. It takes everything into becoming a groggy slumber party. Who the heck cares about how many hypotheticals one can come up with" Often times the answer was totally someplace else to be found.

This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.” Eph 5:14​

Its not a new thing used to keep Christians from finding true answers, answers that must come from God through knowledge gained. That is when the shocks and screams begin. What? A real answer? That's IMPOSSIBLE!

grace and peace!

 

[GenemZ]

Take it easy brother, I get all my news from Gutfeld

I get my "noose" from the mainstream media?

 

[RickReads]

I get my "noose" from the mainstream media?

Actually here's a link to one I keep an eye on.

Prophecy News Watch

 

[misput]

I've written a thesis on the psalm and Jesus last words. I still have a few edits to make but its almost done. That study is what finally drove me away from Calvinism.

I would like to read it.

 

[Clare73]

Who was Paul writing to? The "Romans." Gentiles primarily, and Jews.

Look at Genesis 11, verse 1...

Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there."
​

Context. . .they're not the same.

That was before there were any Jews. (Yet, the ancestors to the Jews were in that number

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

"All without distinction" does not mean "everyone,". . .that is the meaning of "all without exception."
"All without distinction" means Gentile as well as Jew, or Jew as well as Gentile, neither being all Jews nor all Gentiles.

It's good to know your references again affirm what I say. . .

They actually oppose them and affirm mine .

 

[misput]

Here is another passage that refutes calvinism and shows tulip to be false.

Amazing how the unregenerate in the OT were given the choice by their free will to either obey God or not obey Him. And the misnomer that the unregenerate cannot hear from God or that God cannot talk to them without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is yet another misnomer.

Just look at Cain and his interaction with God- post fall. So much for TD and mans inability and IR. Also where is this change in "mans nature" that he cannot communicate of hear from God because of his sin nature ?

Genesis 4
Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.


6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”


8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.


9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

“I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”


10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”


13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”


15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

1 John 3:12
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.

Jude 1:11
Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Luke 11:51
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

hope this helps !!!

This is gold! The beginning provides the answers!

 

[zoidar]

?????

Not. . .Paul does not agree with pagan poets.

"See" means "to know, to be acquainted with" as in perceive, apprehend, "to get it."

Because the NT revelation was not complete until Paul's revelation was given.

1 John 2:2 - "Whole world" meaning all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew), not all without exception.

Christ's atonement is not about "for whom," it's about "to whom the blood is applied," as in the sacrifices.
It is applied to people of the whole world, every tribe, nation and tongue.

1 John 3:16 - does not present the whole world being saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 - "God will have all to be saved" - meaning that it is not God who has them condemned, they condemn themselves. Rather, God, through the provision of the sacrifice (Romans 3:25) for their salvation, has men saved.
A little ad hominem thrown in for lagniappe? . . .interesting.

Sorry you feel that way. . .that's in lieu of a Biblical demonstration of error?

It seems like "the world" in John 3:17 includes those who never receives Christ, so I find it natural that those are also included in John 3:16.

For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
— John 3:17

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
— John 12:47

 

[Clare73]

Here is another passage that refutes calvinism and shows tulip to be false.

Amazing how the unregenerate in the OT were given the choice by their free will to either obey God or not obey Him.

Strawman. . .

"Free will" is not in the Bible.
Freedom of the will as philosophy conceived it and Pelagius asserted it is not in the Bible.

However, the Bible does present the ability of man to voluntarily choose what he prefers, likes.
The freedom of the will in the Bible is not the freedom of the will asserted by Pelagius and many today.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Strawman. . .

"Free will" is not in the Bible.
Freedom of the will as philosophy conceived it and Pelagius asserted it is not in the Bible.

However, the Bible does present the ability of man to voluntarily choose what he prefers, likes.
The freedom of the will in the Bible is not the freedom of the will asserted by Pelagius and many today.

Tulip is not in the Bible .

So much for your arguments eh ?

 

[Mark Quayle]

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

This is what that sounds like to me: "When the plain sense of Scripture is whatever it appears to be as common sense to your biased Point of View (and yes, we all are biased) then by all means, that is the right way to take it. But if something it says disagrees with, for example, your notion of love, then seek for another use of it."

I don't mean that to mock anyone, but the hinges on that door swing both ways.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

This is what that sounds like to me: "When the plain sense of Scripture is whatever it appears to be as common sense to your biased Point of View (and yes, we all are biased) then by all means, that is the right way to take it. But if something it says disagrees with, for example, your notion of love, then seek for another use of it."

I don't mean that to mock anyone, but the hinges on that door swing both ways.

Except one cannot disprove God is love is an innate / essential core attribute of the Tri-Unity of God. It’s who God is within His own Being as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It’s an irrefutable fact

 

[mccafferty1]

This is what that sounds like to me: "When the plain sense of Scripture is whatever it appears to be as common sense to your biased Point of View (and yes, we all are biased) then by all means, that is the right way to take it. But if something it says disagrees with, for example, your notion of love, then seek for another use of it."

I don't mean that to mock anyone, but the hinges on that door swing both ways.

That's the right attitude! It's sure to help with communication breakdown.

 

[Der Alte]

This is what that sounds like to me: "When the plain sense of Scripture is whatever it appears to be as common sense to your biased Point of View (and yes, we all are biased) then by all means, that is the right way to take it. But if something it says disagrees with, for example, your notion of love, then seek for another use of it."
I don't mean that to mock anyone, but the hinges on that door swing both ways.

For some folks, I ain't one of, "Plain sense" means if they don't agree with what is written they S.P.A.M.-Fig it, i.e. it is "symbolic,''"poetic,""allegory,""metaphor" or "figurative" anything but literal. Or they want to tell others what the Greek or Hebrew word "really means." Lexicons? "Oh no, they are all biased." Only the scholars of their particular religious group are truthful and trustworthy.

 

[mccafferty1]

Except one cannot disprove God is love is an innate / essential core attribute of the Tri-Unity of God. It’s who God is within His own Being as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It’s an irrefutable fact

I hear ya..."Just the Facts Man". But biased Points of View are so much fun.

Facts are facts and they are even more fun, "like the Calvinist idea that people have no control whatsoever, or that God controls our sins but holds us accountable for them, or that He "wants" all people to be saved but still predestines most to hell.

 

[Der Alte]

What difference does it make? The "whole world" means the whole world.
I would rather avoid the spin if some are trying to prove that not to be true.
I do not watch MSNBC and CNN for my news for the same reason

Are you, real sure about that?

[1]Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to
gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"

[2]1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?

[3]Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?

[4]Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.​

Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?

[5]Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.​

Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?

[6]Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,​

Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"

[7]Acts 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?​

Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?

[8]Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.​

Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"

[9]Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.​

Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"

[10]Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth​

Did "all Asia all the world" literally worship the pagan deity Diana?

[11]Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

Was the faith of the church at Roman literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"

[12]John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.​

Did the whole world literally go after Jesus?

[13]Acts of the apostles 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;​

Did the Paul’s companions literally turn “the world upside down?”

[14]1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

Did the “ends of the world” literally come upon the Israelites who disobeyed God at Sinai?

[15]James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.​

Is the tongue literally a world?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I hear ya..."Just the Facts Man". But biased Points of View are so much fun.

Facts are facts and they are even more fun, "like the Calvinist idea that people have no control whatsoever, or that God controls our sins but holds us accountable for them, or that He "wants" all people to be saved but still predestines most to hell.

I stopped by my son in laws house this morning who is a pastor and a Calvinist who is now questioning his beliefs as I share my studies with him all the time . He is in the process of deconstructing as well but not as far along in the process as I am. My daughter who is also a Calvinist was listening to the conversation and was affirming some points I brought up that she had not thought of before regarding Gods nature and some church history pre Augustine and the gnostic , plato and pagan influences that effected his beliefs about God.